Dylan Waco Posted June 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Actually the biggest Demo pimp in this thread wasn't even a Demo fan as a kid. Just saying. Just watched the PG-13 v. Crowbar/Flair and 3 Count matches and man they were fun little tv matches. JC celebrating his "win" in the Crowbar/Flair match was great stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 There's probably more matches on Dailymotion and other streaming sites, I just didn't feel like checking all of 'em. If anyone else wants to search those, your efforts would be welcomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 I found a DDP vs PG-13 match from Nitro. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xj7qzy_pg13vsddp_sport Nobody got squashed better than PG-13. They made it spectacular so it was "PG-13 were squashed by Diamond Dallas Page" instead of "Diamond Dallas Page squashed PG-13." There is a Rick Steiner vs PG-13 match from the week before but I can't find the episode online beyond torrents. Just watched the PG-13 v. Crowbar/Flair and 3 Count matches and man they were fun little tv matches. JC celebrating his "win" in the Crowbar/Flair match was great stuff. Crowbar looked really spectacular in that match. From that dive to the floor to that crazy Lionsault. Which looked dangerous for Crowbar and PG-13. David Flair tried his best. But he looked like a mid tier TBS jobber various Varsity Club members would maul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 I'm saying that there are lots of examples of people overthinking unremarkable and/or silly things in order to establish them as serious. I then listed a bunch of them, including Chris Coey, someone who was notorious as an overthinker, and took wrestling very, very seriously because of it, not in spite of it. Ok, I see your point. But really, looking from the oustide, it did made those things really absurd to me. You said their gimmick was laughable to anyone over the age of 12. Yes. Like a few others in the WWF at the time. It was the way the product was marketed. Let's compare Darsow under the Repo Man gimmick, yet another gooball gimmick aimed at kids. It didn't bother me that his offense wasn't anything special, he wasn't supposed to be this big killer guy. He's supposed to be goofy, good for him. The Demos inside the ring just didn't do anything that I bought as very dangerous or ver brutal. I'll allow goofy, though I still don't see how they're any goofier than is to be expected in wrestling. I'll even allow weak looking offense, though the teams you're comparing them to weren't exactly offensive dynamos either (Doomsday Device aside), and in fact were probably the Demos inferiors in that regard. I can't agree with that. The Lod's moveset was infinitely richer and more brutal than anything the Demos did. The PoP had the Barbarian killing people, and the Warlord had good pure power spots, and looked like he was made out of granit. The Steiners's offense make the Demos look like two jobbers. Doom were more comparable to the Demos, and I'm not a big fan of them, but still, Simmons was doing some brutal looking shit to his opponents, and both looked really great and imposing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 I honestly think we should put this whole Demos thing behind us now. As Monsoon would say, we've got to the point where the irresistable force has met with the immovable object. The only things we can safely conclude now are: 1. that Dylan, Dr. Reverend Victator, Matt D and SLL all rate Demolition. 2. that myself, El-P, Jingus and Will do not. 3. Dr. Reverend has an aggressive and confrontational debating style. It was a nice 4 vs. 4 while it lasted, but I think now the match is over after the ref declared a no contest. I mean we've been over it forwards and backwards, all the points are covered and everyone has stuck to their guns. To be honest, I'm more interested in what people make of The Hart Foundation, The Steiners and The Bulldogs -- traditionally I'd have thought "Top 5" sort of teams, but the prevailing wisdom seems to be saying no. Why? Who are better than those teams? The 90s attitude era teams such as the Dudleys, E&C and the Hardy Boys have been given pretty short shrift. I can only imagine people are thinking of the great southern tagteams of the 80s. I'll be honest and I KNOW I will take a lot of shit for this but: I'd take all three of those teams (Steiners, Bulldogs, HF) over the Rock 'n' Roll Express. I'd take Arn and Tully and MX over those teams, but not the Rock 'n' Rollers and certainly not the Fantastics. Someone needs to explain the appeal of the Rock 'n' Roll Express to me, because from where I'm sitting it's just Ricky Morton bumping his ass off for 20 minutes, before a hot tag and a finish. Sure, Morton was amazing at selling, but aren't you watching the match more for the heel team's offence? I need it explained. Why would you rate R'n'R over any of those teams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Sure, Morton was amazing at selling, but aren't you watching the match more for the heel team's offence? 1. I haven't really been involved lately because I don't really argue about Demolition's presence. I started the whole project to talk about the work since their presence is pretty fondly remembered on its own. I pretty much said what I had to say many pages ago. 2. There are some inseparable ravines here on what makes for good wrestling and why, and I think there are some moving goalposts too which are blurring matters and a lack of acceptance or attempts to understand. There's also some dismissal out of hand which is a shame, but that's how it goes. 3. And to reference the quote above. No. But that's already been covered. Dylan wrote an excellent post a few pages back on a whole school of thought of enjoying and appreciating wrestling and you'd do well to read it a few more times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Someone needs to explain the appeal of the Rock 'n' Roll Express to me, because from where I'm sitting it's just Ricky Morton bumping his ass off for 20 minutes, before a hot tag and a finish. Sure, Morton was amazing at selling, but aren't you watching the match more for the heel team's offence? I need it explained. Why would you rate R'n'R over any of those teams? Urge to kill rising. Just kidding. Sort of. Anyway, heel team offense isn't going to look all that great unless it's sold properly, right? There is absolutely nothing more important in wrestling than selling. A wrestler who can sell who can't do anything else will make it farther with me than someone who can do lots of other things really well, but can't sell. I'm not really sure how to explain the appeal of the tag team formula and the Rock & Roll Express without sounding like I'm explaining wrestling's appeal to someone who has never watched. You answered your own question regarding Morton's appeal. Regarding the other teams you mentioned: (1) The next traditional tag match I see from the Dudleys that actually has a face in peril and a build to a hot tag will be the first. Not saying it doesn't exist, but they built their fame on falling off of things and breaking tables. (2) Everyone likes the Steiners, it's just a question of degree to which everyone likes the Steiners. They were exciting to watch and had some terrific matches. But I'm confused by you bringing them up when you also say that the appeal of tag team wrestling is heel offense, yet the Steiners didn't gain fame as heels. (3) Where are the great Hart Foundation and British Bulldogs matches? I would even rank the second-tier NWA teams like the Russians and Windham/Garvin ahead of them, mainly because I can point to a single match that stands out for both of those teams, but I can't do that for anything involving the Harts or Bulldogs. I have seen some stuff from the Harts and Bulldogs that I have enjoyed, but nothing that I'd really qualify as show-stealing, exceptionally memorable or heated beyond how your typical polite 80s WWF crowd responded to any other midcard match. By comparison, your average squash on Worldwide involving the Rock & Rolls was pretty insanely heated. I think we can easily say all of these teams were good, but tag team wrestling in the WWF just wasn't as good as tag team wrestling in the NWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 To me the only team who can hold a candle to most great southern wrestling team (Arn & Tully, Rock'n Roll, Fantastics, MX (both versions)) are the Rockers, who were just an amazing team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 The Rockers also had their roots in Southern tags before coming to the WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 (2) Everyone likes the Steiners, it's just a question of degree to which everyone likes the Steiners. They were exciting to watch and had some terrific matches. One of the most overrated team ever. Bunch of big spots thrown without ryhme or reasons. They had a few really good matches against really good teams (the SummerSlam match with the Bodies is one of them), but overall they were fun for bomb throwing matches only (don't get me wrong, I like bomb throwing matches). But most of their most pimped matches are truly overrated (japanese matches, GAB91, Nasty Boys). I'm not down on the Steiners like Dylan is with the Bulldogs, but really, they weren't that good of a team. I have no issue with the notion PG13 would be a better team for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 The Rockers also had their roots in Southern tags before coming to the WWF. True. Which maybe explains why they where so good. Rockers vs Orient Express from RR91 is still one of the greatest matches ever in WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 In a bit of a rush, so can't write in full, but Loss: Hart Foundation vs. the Brainbusters from Summerslam '89? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 I honestly think we should put this whole Demos thing behind us now. Not before I concede the point about the Demos having objectively superior offense to the Roadies and the PoP. I don't know what I was smoking to make me rank them ahead of the goddamn Barbarian in that respect, but it must have been some pretty powerful stuff. So yeah, in the interest of maintaining intellectual honesty, there you go. Now.... 2. There are some inseparable ravines here on what makes for good wrestling and why, and I think there are some moving goalposts too which are blurring matters and a lack of acceptance or attempts to understand. There's also some dismissal out of hand which is a shame, but that's how it goes. This is a really strong point. It's been alluded to a few times already, and I know I've been thinking about it all thread long. Hell, there are a fair amount of threads here and elsewhere that break down into this issue. I'm gonna spin it off into a separate thread, both so we can keep this one on-topic, and because I think it's time we isolated this and addressed it specifically from whatever other conversation it stemmed from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Ill respond to jerry regarding the rnr issue in greater detail when i get home, but i wanted to note that i dont even think the hart foundation was a better heel team then they were. Seriously heel robert gibson in the uswa v. Smw feud stuff opposite pg 13is better heeling both in motion, tactics, mannerisms, et then anything i can recall ever coming from bret and the anvil. Honestly watching smw i could almost be convinced to leapfrog the rnr over the midnights. Also loss, the dudz had some very good traditional tags. Its just that it was bubba and spike and not bubba and dvon. Well there is the pg 13 match... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 The Dudley's were awesome heat magnets in ECW. They actively tried to get riots started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 Not before I concede the point about the Demos having objectively superior offense to the Roadies and the PoP. I don't know what I was smoking to make me rank them ahead of the goddamn Barbarian in that respect, but it must have been some pretty powerful stuff. So yeah, in the interest of maintaining intellectual honesty, there you go. Was thinking about it and as a team Demolition had much better offense than the Road Warriors. Demos had the Decapitator, The assisted Stun Gun, and The Stun Gun/Clothesline combo. The double team clubber always looked great. The thing with the Doomsday Device was it only looked as good as the guy who took it. Sometimes it would look nasty and other times not weak but not too impressive. The Grave Digger always looked good and their version of the Hart Attack looked ugly in a good way. Now the Powers of Pain blew both of them away in offense. The Warlord had some nice looking suplexes and backbreakers. Barbarian had the Big Boot but not as many throws as he did during the Faces of Fear era. As I said a few pages back they had a load of sweet double teams. A clothesline/vertical suplex, Hart Attack, Powerslam/Flying Headbutt, A Flying headbutt Decapitator. Hell they even had a finisher with Uncle Ivan in six man tags. Going on offense the Steiners and Bulldogs don't have shit on Warlord and Barbarian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 10, 2011 Report Share Posted June 10, 2011 This is completely random, but you know who I thought had an awesome finisher? Power and Glory. That's Hercules and Paul Roma. Just a superplex from Herc followed by a splash from the top rope by Roma, but it looked cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 This is completely random, but you know who I thought had an awesome finisher? Power and Glory. That's Hercules and Paul Roma. Just a superplex from Herc followed by a splash from the top rope by Roma, but it looked cool. Agreed. Great move. The appeal of Demolition vs. The Road Warriors to me was that I always thought Demolition could lose any match they were in against the other teams of the day: Killer Bees, Can-Am's, Rougeaus, etc. They're matches were entertaining partially because they were competitive. The Road Warriors I enjoyed most when they were booked not to be in competitive matches. By that, I mean you didn't think there was any way in hell they were going to lose to who they were facing, even if it was a "Good" team. I enjoyed their raw power, their push as "monsters". When the LOD lost that aura and started to wrestle in "competitive" matches, where they were booked to look like they were in serious trouble and could actually lose, they weren't as fun to watch. It also explains why I never thought comparing the two teams was a good idea. ...and I have no idea if either was better than PG13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 That is an awesome tandem move. I could see it being better if the team of Vader and Bigelow had used it. Definite match ending spot anywhere on the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Just briefly on the Demo/Road Warriors subject, there's no question RW wins the battle in terms of drawing power... Warriors headlined cards on plenty of occassions but I recall few, if any, instances of the Demos headlining a WWF house show. That being said, I do think the Warriors longevity might hurt them a bit, as khawk suggests, with the fact that the Warriors started going into competitive matches and they just weren't as fun to watch, plus Hawk had his issues with drugs and it showed. Demoltion, on the other hand, may not have had as long of a run, but in retrospect, it may have been for the best as you didn't see an extended period in which they tried to keep going and it just didn't work. It was good for WWF to pull the plug on the Smash/Crush Demolition when it was apparent it wasn't working. Oh, and I think Johnny Sorrow summed up the difference between Road Warriors and Demolition nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Demolition style wise were more like the Andersons/Assassins than the Road Warriors. While they rarely headlined they were the number three face act in the WWF right being Hogan and Warrior. Their match with Andre and Haku was the second most pushed match at Wrestlemania 6. They were certainly more successful in the WWF than the Road Warriors were. Also I think the Road Warriors were a really good team on work alone. By 87/88 when they worked competitive matches they were very good. Hawk was great at selling when the opportunity arose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Not saying I disagree with you, but for the life of me I cannot recall a singular competitive match the Roadies ever had in America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 11, 2011 Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Really? I've seen more than a few in the last two months. They had a six man vs the Varsity Club in 89. Matches with the Powers of Pain thru out 88. Usually they just killed guys in seconds on TBS but they had the occasional competitive match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 A couple of things. First I'm not sure I should be lumped in the "rates Demolition" group. I mean I do think they were a good team, but I'm not even sure they would be one of my fifty favorite U.S. teams of all time. I don't mean that as a troll of Matt or Vic either and I give them a lot of credit for actually watching so much stuff and writing it up. Secondly I was going to write up a big thing on the RnR's and why I think they are so great but before I do that I would like to see why Jerry prefers a team like the Hart Foundation. What matches do they have that you would rate so highly? What do they do better than the RnR's (or just generally what do they do so well)? I'm not trying to evade here, just understand. Finally The Rockers were fucking awesome. When we get to the AWA Set people are going to be blown away by them. I think they already have 11 matches nominated for the set. Of those 11, 7 are stone cold locks, and at least 2 others have a very good shot. Of those 7 I would say every one of them is probably in my personal top fifty up to this point, with five of them being serious top fifteen contenders. All of this and I haven't even gotten to watching the full tv seasons yet. Those Rose/Somers tags are all time tag team classics, with both teams being on point from bell to bell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2011 Not saying I disagree with you, but for the life of me I cannot recall a singular competitive match the Roadies ever had in America. Lots of it in the AWA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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