PG-13 vs. The World

[El-P]

I remember the R'n'R having a really good match with Flair & Arn on Nitro in 96. Sure their offense was dated, but if given their opportunity, they would have put most team working at the same time in the big two to shame. I would have loved to see a good, long R'n'R vs Body Donnas match.

[smkelly]

I don't know, when R&R do all of those stereo moves...just too hokey for me. I can certainly acknowledge the critique on their offense though, as they were more of a finesse team then anything else.

[goodhelmet]

We watched the RNR vs. Horsemen match for the yearbook. No one in the crowd gave a shit. However, the crowds gave a shit in SMW and USWA and that's good enough for me. Also by 1996, they weren't just past their prime but had also been working for over 15 years. They had a helluva run in the 2nd biggest promotion in the mid 80s and the early 90s. They did rise to the top. If the WWF is the only measurement of success well then fuck the Midnight Express, the Fantastics, The Freebirds (ignoring their 1985 stand), the Southern Boys, etc. Horrible argument that they couldn't run big time in post MNW so fuck the 15 years that came before it.

[khawk20]

The WWF teams aren't as highly regarded because they weren't as good. I know that sounds like a troll but it's not. It's true in my estimation. They don't have the quality matches the Southern teams have. The mechanics aren't as good. The overall atmosphere of the matches isn't as good. There is NOTHING in the WWF tag style that I think is as good as what you got in the Southern tag style.

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

 

They certainly would ahve had a lot more time to develop an understanding of how to work that style, and probably had much more creative control as to how to execute it.

 

Conversely, would the MX or the R&R have looked as good being forced to wrestle in the WWF during the Harts/Rougeaus era?

[Kostka]

But neither situation happened, so it's irrelevant.

[Tim Evans]

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

The Harts worked good doing the Southern Style when they feuded with Lawler in 93 USWA. I haven't seen Owen's SMW match though.

[Dylan Waco]

The WWF teams aren't as highly regarded because they weren't as good. I know that sounds like a troll but it's not. It's true in my estimation. They don't have the quality matches the Southern teams have. The mechanics aren't as good. The overall atmosphere of the matches isn't as good. There is NOTHING in the WWF tag style that I think is as good as what you got in the Southern tag style.

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

 

They certainly would ahve had a lot more time to develop an understanding of how to work that style, and probably had much more creative control as to how to execute it.

 

Conversely, would the MX or the R&R have looked as good being forced to wrestle in the WWF during the Harts/Rougeaus era?

 

Do I think the Hart Foundation and the Rougeaus would have had better matches if they had been in Crockett? Yes. Do I think there is any evidence to believe they were as good as the Midnights or the RnR's? Absolutely not

[rzombie1988]

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

The Harts worked good doing the Southern Style when they feuded with Lawler in 93 USWA. I haven't seen Owen's SMW match though.

 

It should also be noted that Jacques did Memphis for a while...and was a perfectly serviceable face.

[Victator]

The WWF teams aren't as highly regarded because they weren't as good. I know that sounds like a troll but it's not. It's true in my estimation. They don't have the quality matches the Southern teams have. The mechanics aren't as good. The overall atmosphere of the matches isn't as good. There is NOTHING in the WWF tag style that I think is as good as what you got in the Southern tag style.

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

 

They certainly would ahve had a lot more time to develop an understanding of how to work that style, and probably had much more creative control as to how to execute it.

 

Conversely, would the MX or the R&R have looked as good being forced to wrestle in the WWF during the Harts/Rougeaus era?

 

Do I think the Hart Foundation and the Rougeaus would have had better matches if they had been in Crockett? Yes. Do I think there is any evidence to believe they were as good as the Midnights or the RnR's? Absolutely not

 

Why is that? They had all the elements and produced good to great work in what you would call a very limiting environment.

[Dylan Waco]

The WWF teams aren't as highly regarded because they weren't as good. I know that sounds like a troll but it's not. It's true in my estimation. They don't have the quality matches the Southern teams have. The mechanics aren't as good. The overall atmosphere of the matches isn't as good. There is NOTHING in the WWF tag style that I think is as good as what you got in the Southern tag style.

So you don't think that a team like the Harts or the Rougeaus could have been plugged into the Southern Style and been successful?

 

They certainly would ahve had a lot more time to develop an understanding of how to work that style, and probably had much more creative control as to how to execute it.

 

Conversely, would the MX or the R&R have looked as good being forced to wrestle in the WWF during the Harts/Rougeaus era?

 

Do I think the Hart Foundation and the Rougeaus would have had better matches if they had been in Crockett? Yes. Do I think there is any evidence to believe they were as good as the Midnights or the RnR's? Absolutely not

 

Why is that? They had all the elements and produced good to great work in what you would call a very limiting environment.

 

I don't agree with this. I don't think either team had all the elements and there really aren't that many good matches I can recall from other team, let alone great matches.

[Victator]

I can and have named more than a few. What were they suppose to be lacking then?

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, would it be fair to say that, where 80s wrestling is concerned, you are either strongly pro-Southern or strongly anti-WWF?

 

Have you ever heard that phrase that "familiarity breeds contempt"? Is that what is happening here?

 

I just wonder if there's something else behind this refusal to give the WWF teams their due. I sometimes get the impression that if The Hart Foundation -- exactly the same act, exactly the same matches -- had their body of work in, say, SMW, you'd be rating them very highly here.

 

While I can't point to any CLASSICS, pick any combination of Hart Foundation, the Fabulous Rougeaus, the British Bulldogs, The Islanders, The Rockers, Strike Force, The Dream Team, and, even the Killer Bees (and yes I suppose Demolition too) from about 1986 till 1989 and you're looking at minimum of ***

 

I'd argue closer to **** when the Brainbusters were in town.

 

I think the WWF tag division of that era is being very severely underrated in this thread. If we can all agree that the top four US teams are:

 

(no order)

The Midnight Express

The Rock n Roll Express

The Fabulous Freebirds

Arn and Tully

 

Who comes then? I was willing to drop the case against RnR, because it's not winnable, they have too much good stuff. But I'd happily fight for The Steiners, Hart Foundation, The Rockers or The Bulldogs over The Fantastics.

 

If those teams aren't in your top 10, then who is? PG-13, clearly. But who else?

[Dylan Waco]

I'd fight for The Rockers over The Fantastics. They were better. I also wouldn't rate the Birds nearly as high as you have them.

 

I think the fact that you can't point to ANY classics involving WWF tag teams is really the point. If someone who is pretty clearly a big fan of the WWF from the 80's can't come up with ANY classics involving those teams what does that say?

 

It's no secret that I am Southern and think Southern tag wrestling is far better than WWF tag wrestling. It's also not a secret that I'm not as high on 80's WWF as I am on 80's Crockett or Mid-South or Memphis. But I wouldn't call myself anti-WWF. For example I am much higher on 80s Hogan than the vast, vast majority of smarks.

 

I'll get into the particulars on those tag teams with my next post.

[Loss]

They weren't bad matches. 80s WWF tag teams had plenty of good matches. One feud that has specifically gotten some love the past few years is Strike Force vs Islanders. There are also some matches jdw has liked more than the general voting reflected when wading through 80s WWF, like Steamboat/Santana vs Dream Team.

 

But it's the difference between a company that promotes a midcard division of wrestlers that rarely, if ever, interact with anyone outside of it and feels like just another cog in the wheel, and a company that promotes tag teams just like everyone else where the wrestlers involved are stars who get singles main event opportunities. The Rock & Roll Express and the Road Warriors weren't Ric Flair, but the Flair/Morton stuff is among the most memorable feuds of the era, and I would argue that the Midnight Express/Road Warriors Skywalkers match is the most famous match of the national JCP era.

 

The matches generally weren't as heated or memorable in the WWF and the angles surrounding the tag titles didn't drive business, nor were the teams as over in their company. I'd compare how the WWF pushed tag teams in the 80s to how WCW pushed cruiserweights in the 90s -- in their own universe with lots of good workers, but not really given the tools to deliver at the level they could have, and not a key part of what made the company successful.

 

If there is a bias toward 80s WWF tag teams, which I will readily admit on my side there probably is, it's because it was an environment that wasn't conducive to getting the most out of tag teams.

 

I realize my own hypocrisy in talking about judging teams by where they work being a product of elitism, but this to me is not a debate over who would have been best had they all been in the same environment. Rather it is a debate over who actually was best in the environment they were in. Regardless of whatever "what if?" scenarios we can imagine, we can only judge teams on what they actually did in the end.

 

Yes, part of it is out of their control. I suspect the British Bulldogs in Mid South (which almost happened) would have been awesome. You mentioned the Arn/Tully match at Summerslam '89, which is a very good match, probably their best. But when I watch it next to Arn/Tully vs Windham/Luger, it feels lacking.

[JerryvonKramer]

(@ Dylan) Well I can't name any bone-fide classics because I don't think they exist. But my point was that pretty much ANY combination of those teams is going to give you at the very least a solid match. And with a lot of WWF cards, that ***1/2 tag match is probably going to be the best match of the night, or second best.

 

If you held a gun to my head to name a few I'd go:

 

Dreamteam vs. British Bulldogs from '86 (Wrestlemania II)

 

Hart Foundation vs. The Brainbusters from '89 (Summerslam)

 

The Rockers vs. The Brainbusters from '89 (the SNME match + the MSG one)

 

While not CLASSICS, they are close in my mind.

 

@Loss, I don't disagree with any of that at all, the Southern teams main evented and the WWF ones didn't and were more or less ghettoised, although I'd argue, regardless of that, the Tag Titles were treated as a big deal, much more of a big deal than the WCW Cruiserweight title. The tag division was strong in WWF, and even if they never produced any truly classic matches, everything they did was at least good.

 

The point I keep coming back to is: if the teams I've named there are not places 4-10 in the top ten, who are? I think Dylan is answering that as we speak.

 

EDIT:

 

I'll also mention both Hart Foundation vs. Bulldogs from '86 and Hart Foundation vs. Rockers from '90. I'd say both of those matches were "very good".

[Victator]

In 1989 and 1990 Demolition was more over than any tag team in the United States. In 1988 they were slightly behind the Road Warriors. The Hart Foundation was one of the most over acts in the WWF. The list of WWF acts more over is a very short one.

 

I think the fact that you can't point to ANY classics involving WWF tag teams is really the point. If someone who is pretty clearly a big fan of the WWF from the 80's can't come up with ANY classics involving those teams what does that say?

I listed some just a few pages back. Demolition vs Rockers from MSG and Harts/Demos Summerslam were both great matches.

 

But when I watch it next to Arn/Tully vs Windham/Luger, it feels lacking.

Just watched that match. It is a really good match but not nearly as good as Harts/Busters.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't want to seem like I'm U-turning on the Demos for convenience here, I'm not their biggest fan, but I agree that the matches against the HF were very good. I think you could make a good argument for Hart Foundation having the best match at Summerslam for three years in a row from 88 to 90. (Although I am a big fan for Rude vs. Warrior too)

 

Oh and The Rockers & Tito Santana vs. The Rougeaus & Rick Martel at Summerslam '89 is a great match.

[Dylan Waco]

A few quick things:

 

I'll try and review a few Hart Foundation matches next to a few RnR matches at some point in the next couple of days.

 

Also should note that I like all the matches you listed Jerry - I just don't think any are classics. I also agree with Loss that there were plenty of GOOD WWF tag matches, but rarely more than that.

 

Really not sure what my U.S. top ten is. I'd have to think about it. After the top four or so there are a lot of teams I could see in the discussion. I am sure PG-13, Arn and Tully and the Fantastics would also be in my top ten, but beyond them, both versions of the MX, the RnRs and The Rockers I am not sure who else would hit my list.

[smkelly]

I know Bret doesn't hold as much light to many around here like at different forums, but to me, Bret was an awesome worker. Exaggerated in skill, sure. But so is Flair, Benoit, Danielson, and Kobashi...or any other favorite wrestler a person has. I rate Bret higher than Ricky and Robert, maybe even combined. I guess Bret is that performer that elicits an emotional response out of me. Be it the SummerSlam 1992 match or the tribute for his brother. R&R never did that for me. Maybe for some of the older cats 'round this place they might have. But they never have for me. I think Bret and Jim would have rocked the NWA. They would have been the perfect heel dynamic opposite Morton and Gibson. See, they are both quick, agile, scrappy dudes. Bret is the quicker of his team, and the better versed wrestler, but Jim brings the strength and brawling to the table. I believe that if they had met in an NWA ring, we'd still be talking about their matches.

 

If those teams aren't in your top 10, then who is? PG-13, clearly. But who else?

That is an excellent question.

 

It's no secret that I am Southern and think Southern tag wrestling is far better than WWF tag wrestling. It's also not a secret that I'm not as high on 80's WWF as I am on 80's Crockett or Mid-South or Memphis. But I wouldn't call myself anti-WWF. For example I am much higher on 80s Hogan than the vast, vast majority of smarks.

I'm curious how many northern promotions and/or workers would crack your list, though? I'm hoping your not influenced by that old rivalry. It would really be such a shame to have to ignore you permanently from now on.

 

Really not sure what my U.S. top ten is. I'd have to think about it. After the top four or so there are a lot of teams I could see in the discussion. I am sure PG-13, Arn and Tully and the Fantastics would also be in my top ten, but beyond them, both versions of the MX, the RnRs and The Rockers I am not sure who else would hit my list.

How can you so easily dismiss certain teams, then? If you don't know what your list looks like how can you be so certain that teams you've spent time dismantling to one degree or another aren't on the list themselves?

 

Also, it seems as though you have changed your opinion on PG-13 from, "I think PG-13 MIGHT be a top ten all time team" to "I am sure PG-13...would also be in my top ten..."

[Dylan Waco]

I love Bret. Think he was a great wrestler. I also happen to think Ricky Morton is an arguable top 20 wrestler of all time but that may be another thread.

 

The suggestion that I am biased against Northern wrestlers is silly, baseless, and not even worth addressing or treating seriously.

 

The whole point of this thread was to see where PG-13 would rate next to other teams but really my position hasn't changed. They are in my U.S. top ten. They are not in my overall top ten. They would almost definitely be in my overall top twenty though.

 

The reason I can dismiss the WWF teams in question is because I don't think they are in serious contention for the couple of spots left in my U.S. top ten. For example I think Smothers/Guido is better than any of those teams. I think the Fabs are better. I think the Heavenly Bodies are better. Honestly I prefer the Steiners to those teams. I'd take either combination of the original Birds over the HF or Bulldogs or Demolition. I think the Southern Boys and Tanaka/Diamond were better than those teams as well. Hell I'd take MNM and the Hardyz over any of those teams as well. Teams like the THUGZ and Somers/Rose who had short lived runs had much better high end stuff than those teams and were more consistent than the HF and Bulldogs who I have always thought were very up and down. There are other more controversial statements and picks I could make here but it's not really necessary. The point is that with 7 spots taken I can say with confidence that the Bulldogs/HF/Demo's aren' serious contenders to fill the remaining slots. I actually think you could make a case that the best of those WWF teams is Strike Force given their AWA run was pretty solid too based on the little bits I've seen of it and I don't think I'd consider them either.

[Victator]

There is no way in hell those teams (especially Hardyz or MnM) are better than Demolition or even the Hart Foundation.

[Loss]

Bret Hart was a great wrestler. But really, does his 80s tag team run do anything to help or harm his case? Wouldn't he be every bit as well-regarded without it?

 

smkelly: Perhaps there's a style bias. It's just that, not something with roots in the Civil War if that is what you're taking from this. I don't know how much Southern style wrestling you have watched, but in general, most things that people complain are missing from modern wrestling are things that were never huge priorities in the WWF that were a key part of most territories.

 

Victator: I will watch the Rockers/Demos tag first chance I get.

 

Jerry: You mentioned Harts/Bulldogs from '86. They had tons of matches in '86. Which are you referring to? I'll make a point to watch it.

 

I remember Harts vs Busters from Summerslam being a very good match. In order for the Harts, Demolition or Bulldogs to compare to the top NWA teams of the era, I'd need to see at least 5-10 matches from each team that are just as good.

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss it's the one from Boston in November. Hold on I'll actually find it for you:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ovsruhim1o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJL10KjTGY

 

Later on, I'm going to watch some the PG-13 matches that have been linked. And some of the Demolition matches. It's only fair.

[El-P]

Top ten team (in North America) ?

 

Usual suspects :

 

Rock'n Roll Express : no brainer

Fantastics : not as good as the Rock'n'Roll as far as psychology goes, but more advanced action

Rockers : the R'n'R 2.0, and just as great as the originals, with updated offense

 

MX : both version, although the Eaton & Condrey is the superior unit to me, never a big fan of Lane. The supreme southern heel tag team.

Arn & Tully : no brainer

Freebirds : They were a trio, but any combination involving the great Terry Gordy worked. Hayes is underrated.

 

Then it gets tricky a bit.

 

Heavenly Bodies ? Maybe, I haven't seen enough of their work, but I can't think of a much better team in the 90's, old school southern style. I'm talking about Prichard & Del Ray here, for the same reasons as for the MX.

Hart Foundation ? Way too many really good matches in a non favourable environment to be put aside. That said, Jim Neidhart wasn't exactly setting the world on fire.

Windham & Dustin ? Short-lived but awesome

Quebecers ? Short lived but rather awesome, again, in a non favourable environment, especially since it's about that time the tag belts became really secondary. Their stint in WCW hurt them though.

Can-Am Express ? Overall, probably, for their US work, not a chance.

Smothers & Guido ? Really good team, but where are the matches ? I don't buy it.

Fabulous Ones ? Nope. They never did much for me.

Hollywood Blondes. I'll have to rewatch their work. I don't think so, teams like Strike Force or the Killer Bees would have a better shots so...

Highflyers ? We need some AWA expertise here.

Steiner ? Nope.

Doom ? Nope.

Samoan Swat Team/HeadShrinkers : probably underrated at this point because they never had the defining matches.

Faces of Fear : including their short stint together in WWF ? Possibly.

Road Warriors ? Hum... Maybe, if you take in account how important they were, and they did have their share of really good matches, but their best ones were in Japan.

British Bulldogs ? I'll have to rewatch them too. Overrated in my mind.

 

so... PG-13 ? Maybe.

 

So, the top 6 is pretty easy, then I can't really think of any *great* tag team up to the level of the first 6.

[Victator]

Hart Foundation ? Way too many really good matches in a non favourable environment to be put aside. That said, Jim Neidhart wasn't exactly setting the world on fire.

Neidhart was putting in just as much work as Bret. Maybe more because I've seen matches at smaller shows where Bret decided not to bother but Anvil went all out.