PG-13 vs. The World

[Johnny Sorrow]

Road Warriors/ Russians were always even.

[Victator]

(or just generally what do they do so well)? I'm not trying to evade here, just understand.

What made the Hart Foundation great was versatility. They could play any role you needed them to and do it well. They could be heels, faces or tweeners at any time. They could play bully heels or chicken shit heels depending on the need. They were great at face in peril. Bret could sell like he was dieing then Neidhart comes in like a bull elephant running over everything in his path. Beyond that they had a bunch of cool double teams and I thought a cool gimmick/look in general. I loved their face era promos, with Neidhart getting worked up and Bret having to cool him down. Or the heel promos with Jimmy Hart. They seemed like they were having fun all the time.

 

Like Demolition I think the only reason the Harts greatness is even debatable is because they worked in the WWF. Put them in Mid South, Memphis or Crockett and there would be no debate. They would clearly be the best since they would not have the limitations of working in the WWF.

 

 

The only liability the Hart Foundation had (In particular Bret) was if it was not a big show they would dog it.

[Jingus]

It seemed like the Warriors actually started having more competitive matches once they joined the WWF. Which goes entirely against the "heel-in-peril" stereotype of that company, but it felt like they spent more time selling and less time killing people than they had in the NWA.

 

First I'm not sure I should be lumped in the "rates Demolition" group. I mean I do think they were a good team, but I'm not even sure they would be one of my fifty favorite U.S. teams of all time. I don't mean that as a troll of Matt or Vic either and I give them a lot of credit for actually watching so much stuff and writing it up.

Along similar lines, I don't fit cleanly into a "doesn't rate Demolition" group. I was talking entirely about their look, and no other aspect of their work. In-ring and on promos, I thought they were (as previously mentioned) perfectly competent.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Like Demolition I think the only reason the Harts greatness is even debatable is because they worked in the WWF. Put them in Mid South, Memphis or Crockett and there would be no debate. They would clearly be the best since they would not have the limitations of working in the WWF.

So if the Hart Foundation had worked the territories they'd "clearly be the best"? Tell me more Uatu, I want to see the "What If?" world only you can see.

 

[Victator]

I think they would be. If a dude is almost the fastest man alive wearing a bag of rocks he should be the fastest not weighed down.

[El-P]

Finally The Rockers were fucking awesome. When we get to the AWA Set people are going to be blown away by them.

Hopefully we don't get a "The Rockers have been discovered thanks the to AWA set" vibe. The Rockers are awesome on the strenghts of their WWF career and the few usual suspect AWA match already.

[Dylan Waco]

Finally The Rockers were fucking awesome. When we get to the AWA Set people are going to be blown away by them.

Hopefully we don't get a "The Rockers have been discovered thanks the to AWA set" vibe. The Rockers are awesome on the strenghts of their WWF career and the few usual suspect AWA match already.

 

Huh? I love The Rockers and have always regarded them as the best tag team in WWF history which I have said here and elsewhere many times. Still there top level AWA stuff is pretty easily better than their top level WWF stuff. Even the Orient Express match - which I love - would not have been a top five AWA Rockers match in my view.

 

Anyway I don't think anyone is going to claim that The Rockers were "discovered" by the AWA, but I think it will showcase them in a slightly different light than what you get out of their better WWF maches and will add a lot of depth to their case for being an all time great tag team.

[smkelly]

I think you're misinterpreting his point there Dylan.

[El-P]

I think you're misinterpreting his point there Dylan.

I think so too.

 

Anyway I don't think anyone is going to claim that The Rockers were "discovered" by the AWA, but I think it will showcase them in a slightly different light than what you get out of their better WWF maches and will add a lot of depth to their case for being an all time great tag team.

That's a good thing.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, I've been trying to watch Demolition and PG-13 matches. The Demolition matches aren't great but they're not exactly bad either. I don't think their offence was a problem but by the same token their structure wasn't fantastic either. PG-13's USWA matches were far more entertaining even if the ones I saw were basically angles, but I'm not seeing how they're anything more than good at their bit. The most interesting thing so far was the Rock 'n' Roll Express working heel.

[JerryvonKramer]

Secondly I was going to write up a big thing on the RnR's and why I think they are so great but before I do that I would like to see why Jerry prefers a team like the Hart Foundation. What matches do they have that you would rate so highly? What do they do better than the RnR's (or just generally what do they do so well)? I'm not trying to evade here, just understand.

Well as you know I'm not "a matches guy". What does that mean? It means that I don't judge guys based on the number of great matches they had, but on the general performance against any opposition.

 

Anyway, what this comes down to for me is the fact that RnR stick so rigidly to the face-in-peril structure that, well, let's face it, they seem kind of wimpy. 80% of every match is Morton playing a rag doll. While that's great selling and good structure yada, yada, yada, how am I meant to believe that team are a credible threat? Their offence is hardly amazing: I'm not really a fan of the double monkey flips or double atomic drop spots. Morton does a great arm drag and a great dropkick though.

 

Let me ask all of you who think the RnR are the greatest of all time this: why is it that in both WWF and WCW in the 90s they were treated as jobbers and B-show fodder? Why? I'm not saying it's because they were bad at what they did, or that it was just, but what were the reasons? Why were they working Smokey Mountain rather than WCW?

 

I like The Hart Foundation because there are two guys with defined roles: the technician and the powerhouse (For the same reason I like DiBiase and Williams as a combo). As well as two different personalities, the cool but ruthless Hitman and the slightly insane Anvil. And that makes them as a basic unit dynamic and interesting for me. The characters of Morton and Gibson outside of the ring are of limited interest to me: they aren't particularly charismatic, nether of them are great talkers, they had the girls screaming but I don't understand that because I always thought they were not very good looking (Gibson's eye!). Inside the ring, like I said, it's Ricky Morton getting his ass kicked 80% of the time. There's only so much admiration of selling I have, I want to actually see a match -- that is, a contest -- as well y'know? Otherwise the match is just as good as the opponents' offence and Morton's selling of that offence. The biggest thing you can say about them as a bonda-fide face team is that they had the "Rocky Balboa" factor, that is, the will to win against all odds, and never to give up. I can understand that.

 

The Hart Foundation just as a package are much more interesting to me.

 

This is where I'm going to differ from a lot of people here, because it simply does not matter to me if RnR have had dozens of ***** matches and the best match HF ever had was that one I mentioned against Arn and Tully (Summerslam '89), because I'm looking at everything, not just the matches.

 

PS. Don't get me wrong here, I am not disputing RnR as a shoo-in Top 10 team, but I am questioning why certain other teams are getting short shrift.

[Loss]

But you are questioning the Rock & Rolls status.

 

The WWF and WCW runs you refer to happened about a decade after their peak. I think it's only fair that if you're going to make criticisms against the Rock & Rolls, that you focus on Mid South and the NWA from 1984-1987, or even the quality of their work in SMW. Again, I'm not going to use Flair's matches at 56 years old to make the argument that he was never really that good. They worked SMW because the WWF was not a company that really promoted wrestlers of their style at all. I think the mismanagement of WCW during the time period SMW was around is pretty well known. It's worth noting, though, that in the appearances the Rock & Rolls had in WCW in 1993, they were consistently good and got a superstar reaction for almost every showing.

 

I challenge the idea that the creme always rises to the top. As someone said earlier, it's not a meritocracy. People find work or don't for all sorts of reasons. Not singling you out with this, but criticizing wrestlers for where they work instead of how they work seems a little elitist.

 

I have to ask why it's a bad thing to stick to face-in-peril. It works. It's how tag team matches in the U.S. have always worked. It predates the Rock & Rolls. In fact, I would say the biggest problem with some of the teams I've seen mentioned is that they drift away from the formula too much.

 

What is this "everything" you speak of? What did the Harts do besides wrestle? Oh, there was that great angle when ... um ... no. Or how about that promo where ... um ... no. Well, they wore neon pink and used a megaphone for a weapon, Danny Davis helped them win the tag titles, and they were no more or less over than any other tag team in the company during the period they were around. So I guess that encompasses "everything".

 

With the Rock & Rolls, I can point to Morton being piledrived on a table by Randy Savage, having his face rubbed in concrete as part of a main event program with Flair and wearing a noseguard when they went around the horn, which only added to the already huge heat. I can point to them leading Mid South to their most profitable year ever by coming in with the Midnights and popping the territory. I can point to them being one of the teams that got over through the advent of music videos in wrestling. I can point to Morton being overwhelmingly popular with women because he was sympathetic, despite not being all that good looking a guy. I can point to Morton getting a reaction that only a few guys in the NWA were getting at the time. I can point to him being tarred and feathered on TV. Going back further, I can point to his participation in things like Tupelo Concession Stand brawls, which were hugely influential and involved Atsushi Onita, without which there would be no FMW. I can point to the Rock & Rolls getting over as a headlining tag team despite being such small guys. Scaffold matches, cage matches, 30-40 minute matches on free TV ... if anything, factoring in "everything" only strengthens the case.

[MJH]

Of course wrestling isn't a "meritocracy"... that wasn't my point (and it was just an aside in defence of an earlier one from someone else). But great talent *does* rise, at least to a certain level. Seriously, if there's a single wrestler we'd call an "all-time great" (or even close), who didn't get over on a big league level be it in Japan, Mexico, the US, or England back in the WoS days, I'm drawing a blank. When you're that good, there's always an opportunity. And unless you're booked horribly, that blatant level of talent gets you over, too. You might not rise above the mid-card, and you might find yourself relegated to putting over and helping the guys they see $$$ signs in front of, but you'll be comfortable. Hell, you'll probably work some main events if only because the top stars will trust you to make them look so good.

[Loss]

That doesn't really apply to the Rock & Roll Express though, does it? They were stars in the NWA, a promotion that aired nationally.

[MJH]

It wasn't in relation to them, no.

[Loss]

Of course wrestling isn't a "meritocracy"... that wasn't my point (and it was just an aside in defence of an earlier one from someone else). But great talent *does* rise, at least to a certain level. Seriously, if there's a single wrestler we'd call an "all-time great" (or even close), who didn't get over on a big league level be it in Japan, Mexico, the US, or England back in the WoS days, I'm drawing a blank. When you're that good, there's always an opportunity. And unless you're booked horribly, that blatant level of talent gets you over, too. You might not rise above the mid-card, and you might find yourself relegated to putting over and helping the guys they see $$$ signs in front of, but you'll be comfortable. Hell, you'll probably work some main events if only because the top stars will trust you to make them look so good.

While I see the point, I think that we see guys as all-time greats because they got the opportunity and exposure. I can think of really good wrestlers that never broke through that might have had success -- Billie Joe Travis is the first that comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others. In the post-monopoly era, it took Danielson a decade to get signed by a major company despite being arguably top two or three in the world at different points. I'm sure there are plenty of other guys who were very good who just never got the opportunity.

[MJH]

I wouldn't really call Danielson great, but he flopped in New Japan in 2002, didn't really get over in NOAH, and, to my understanding at least, he could've signed with WWE earlier than he did. He certainly wasn't devoid of the opportunity.

[Dylan Waco]

Loss covered several of the things I would have said to Jerry very well, but a few other things.

 

1. The idea that the RnR's were not good on the stick is comical. Granted Gibson was usually just "there" but Morton was excellent on the stic. Excellent at getting over angles. Excellent at conveying real emotion. Excellent at getting the crowd fired up. I don't know that there is ANY babyface of his type in the history of wrestling who was better on the mic than Morton. Certainly Anvil and Bret weren't in his league in that regard.

 

2. I'm not buying the suggestion that the RnR's had anything less than very good offense, nor the suggestion that 80 percent of their matches was Ricky getting his ass kicked. Were there long heat segments in their matches with Ricky selling and was that a primary trait of their matches? Yes and I will come back to that. But the RnR's were excellent with face shine segments and there face shine segments were often times several minutes long. You'll excuse me if I find it hard to believe that anyone would seriously argue that Anvil's chinlocks or even Bret's best stuff was more "high end" or even interesting than the RnR's best stuff. The RnR's also adapted over time with Morton adding shit like a nice rana and a moonsault press among other things. They were masters of misdirection double team spots (seriously there "heel tries to fight off sunset flip and gets bulldogged by the other partner" spot is really great EVERY time), kept the matches moving along WAY better than the HF (who's matches had a tendency to grind to a halt), et. Also the Gibson leglock ruled and is better than the sharpshooter

 

3. Loss touched on this but I find the general criticism of tag team structure and formula to be bizarre. Wrestling is all about formula. That is what ring psych ultimately rests on. Mind you I am not talking about spot for spot repetition, but there are themes that are consistent and work for a reason. I firmly believe you can not have a high end tag match without quality selling and building heat through a serious of hope spots/cutoff spots. The only exceptions I would grant would be out of control brawls (see Doom v. Arn/Barry from Starcade) and even there when the traditional structure is employed the matches are almost always better. If you are not interested in quality matches and the quality of ring work then we are arguing on different metrics, though as Loss pointed out those metrics would strongly favor the RnR EVEN MORE and can be born out with actual facts (gate receipts, paid attendance).

 

4. I can see how someone would like the defined roles of the Hart Foundation, but i don't think either of their roles was as strongly played as Morton's, nor do I think their roles were a big part of their matches at all.

 

5. Again Loss touched on this but in terms of success the RnR were CLEARLY the better team. Harts are fondly remembered because they are a Golden Age WWF tag team that included one of the guys that went on to be the biggest stars in the history of the company. They were NEVER business movers or headliners the way the RnR's were. Even SMW RnR's have a bigger claim than the HF as they were the biggest draws/anchors of the last succesful regional promotion in the U.S. that at points was outdrawing the national promotion based out of the same region in the midst of the biggest decline in the wrestling business of the modern era. In other words past their prime RnR's (who in truth were still awfully good - in fact SMW era RnR's destroys the Hart Foundation in terms of body of work) were still draws in a very depressed market. Hell the RnR v. Midnights reunion shows were some of the top drawing indie shows of the last decade as well. Pointing to the failure of the RnR's to become huge stars in the Ntiro Era as a sign that they were less successful than the HF can't even be treated as a serious point in my view.

[Kostka]

Yeah, what the RNRs did for business in the context of their time period at the top as a main event act/variety of hot money drawing feuds/programs and heated match-ups vs the undercard throw away Hart Foundation in the WWF, the "overall" talking point doesn't fair too well for the Harts AT all.

[El-P]

Of course wrestling isn't a "meritocracy"... that wasn't my point (and it was just an aside in defence of an earlier one from someone else). But great talent *does* rise, at least to a certain level. Seriously, if there's a single wrestler we'd call an "all-time great" (or even close), who didn't get over on a big league level be it in Japan, Mexico, the US, or England back in the WoS days, I'm drawing a blank.

I disagree. Chris Candido was a great wrestler, and he never got past first-half undercard act on major shows and barely high midcard in ECW. Mr. Gannosuke was one of the best wrestler in the world to me in the late 90's and early 00's, and he never work elsewhere but in struggling then bankrupt FMW. Mariko Yoshida was a great wrestler who got a horrible outfit and never went further than mid-card in Zenjo, and only main-evented as one of the greatest wrestler on the planet in a small indy ARSION. There are plenty of exemples, both in the US because work doesn't matter as much as politics and looking good and in Japan because things don't work the same and if you're a product of the indies you might just never get pushed in a major promotions.

 

As far as the R'n'R Express goes, it's been said already, but they were past their prime in the 90's, although still a great working team, and the bookers of WCW were clueless anyway. They would never have worked in WWF for obvious reasons (look, size, southern stigma). The R'n'R Express in their prime not only were the greatest babyface tag team ever, had shitloads of great matches, but also drew tons of money in tons of territories for a lot of years, and were bonafide stars. The WWF teams of the same era beneficiated from the marketing machine of Titan but never were more than a cog in the money making machine that was Hulkamania.

[Dylan Waco]

Chris Candido was a great wrestler

I agree with your overall point in that post and I think Candido was really awesome in SMW but just want to note that he was one of the more disappointing guys on the ECW rewatch I did. Certainly not bad, but with all the stuff I watched I figured there would be a lot of Candido gems. There weren't. But I'll expand on that more in a coming thread I've got in the works.

[El-P]

Chris Candido was a great wrestler

I agree with your overall point in that post and I think Candido was really awesome in SMW but just want to note that he was one of the more disappointing guys on the ECW rewatch I did. Certainly not bad, but with all the stuff I watched I figured there would be a lot of Candido gems. There weren't. But I'll expand on that more in a coming thread I've got in the works.

 

Candido was easily in my top 10 ECW guys after my rewatch.

[JerryvonKramer]

Actually, guys, you've convinced me I'm onto a loser here, or as we'd say in British sports "a hiding to nothing".

 

I regretted making the last post almost as soon as I'd pressed the button, hence the very weak P.S. disclaimer, because even though I stand by SOME of my criticisms of RnR -- I'm not buying Morton as anything better than "above average" on the mic -- it is very very difficult to make a case for HF against them that stands up based on any objective criteria (matches, drawing, success, memorable angles, etc.). I was playing devil's advocate to an extent. I do still think that the Hart Foundation as a basic unit are more interesting than the RnRs, but it's difficult to point to anything beyond that. The evidence is against them.

 

The only part of my argument that I think still warrants some attention is: why the decline to the indies and lower-card in the 90s? Plenty of guys working then were past their prime and near the top of the card, so what made RnR different?

 

I guess what I'd like to draw out is: who the top 10 tag teams, from 1 to 10, would actually be in each of your views. I'm trying to draw out the reasons for why the southern teams of the 80s are generally very highly regarded and the WWF teams of the same era are not.

[Bix]

The R&Rs not having great offense (which often ties into people saying they weren't as good as the Fantastics) is a talking point that needs to be put to sleep. Best evidence is probably in their matches with the MX on Cornette's MX rarities DVD set, which is a must-have. Most memorably, they did a faster and smoother version of the Rockers-Orient Express RR '91 finish.

[Dylan Waco]

The WWF teams aren't as highly regarded because they weren't as good. I know that sounds like a troll but it's not. It's true in my estimation. They don't have the quality matches the Southern teams have. The mechanics aren't as good. The overall atmosphere of the matches isn't as good. There is NOTHING in the WWF tag style that I think is as good as what you got in the Southern tag style.

 

Also I really think the RnR's not making it years after their prime in the MNW era is an unbelievably weak point. People forget by the time SMW closed down Morton had split from the promotion (he was brought back for the very last shows), so it's not even like they were really a tag team unit full time at that point in the first place on top of the other points that have already been made about why that is largely irrelevant.