Rey Mysterio

[Dylan Waco]

Anyway, I want to go back to Dylan's statement about Rey being one of the top five workers in the world right now. I don't disagree, and it really is incredible how well he's been able to adapt to his increasing physical limitations. But that ranking is also a reflection of how drastically the bar has been lowered over the past decade or so. In fact, I might even go so far as to say that from an overall standpoint, wrestling right now is as bad as it's ever been. If you took 2011 Rey and stuck him in, say, 1993, would he still be a top five worker? Or even top 25?

I think this is an interesting point and it comes up a lot but I also think it is overblown to a degree.

 

Yes it is true that the overall climate is weaker now than it was in 93. But is it worse than the over all climate in 98? 99? 00? I would say "no" with very little hesitation.

 

If you compare the modern landscape to the very best years it doesn't hold up well. If you compare it to the very worst years it holds up better.

 

My point is I don't think we are at an all time low for in ring stuff. I think we are in the median range and in the context of the promotion Rey works I think - at least week-to-week - we are at an all time high.

 

Would 09 or 2010 Rey have been top five in 92, 93, 96? To be honest I think the answer is "possibly yes" but I'm probably in the minority. Would that have been a top five year in 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 91, 98, 99, 00? I would say "definitely yes" and I think it is hard to argue against (at least going from memory).

 

Rey is definitely an all-time great. But I wouldn't put him in the GOAT conversation. Then again, I don't think anyone who worked primarily in the US merits GOAT consideration except for Ric Flair.

Rey v. Flair is an interesting comp and I think as the years tick away the argument for Ric becomes less and less clear. I'd still put Flair above Rey now, but if you asked me who had the better formula I'd say Rey. If you asked me who was more consistent I'd say Rey. If you asked me who adapted better I'd say Rey (though I do think Flair as Poor Man's Onita was led to some really fun stuff in 05-06). Amazingly enough I think Rey is also the one guy who has a strong case for "more good matches on tape" than Flair, though that has a lot to do with the way tv has changed.

[Graham Crackers]

I think Jerry Lawler is also in the running for best US babyface and I'd definitely take him over Rey. I'd probably put Bill Dundee ahead of Rey as well. Rey over Steamboat seems fair but I need to see more of his 80s matches.

[Jingus]

Regarding WWE style: there are some parts of it which do bug me quite a bit, like the constant rope-running which is a cheap substitute for real action. Or how half the moves they ever do tend to end in some variation of "I slam the guy onto his back". Or how a lot of the punches look pretty goddamn lame nowadays. Or the intellectually lazy "you can't beat a guy until you form Blazing Sword hit your finisher, and only the main eventers have more than one finisher" psychology. And yeah, the 619 comes off as incredibly contrived at least half the time.

 

But I think it's still a decent style, on top of all that. It's certainly one which goes out of its way to protect the health of the wrestlers, and it's practically the only major company which seems remotely concerned about such things. And the sheer quantity of wrestling we get is nice too. Turn on Smackdown, and you're likely to get more minutes of in-ring action than you'd get from any other national wrestling show since... shit, since what? You have to go all the way back to Saturday Night's Main Event or old Bill Watts shows to see this many long matches shown on free television. Yeah, the business-first types may grumble about how giving the product away like this has ruined da biz or somesuch shit, but for the fans it's a pretty awesome time to be watching.

 

But I feel like to balance out the discussion, it should be mentioned that most of the 1992-1996 AAA trios matches he was part of opposite Juventud or Psicosis and company really don't hold up well at all. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean much, but I don't think "he was always awesome" is accurate. I would say 1995 was his first great year, and a lot of the matches people praised at the time -- especially the touring matches in ECW and WAR -- don't look all that good today.

I'd agree with that. Going back and watching some old Rey lucha matches with my little informal rasslin' club, we weren't terribly impressed with most of it. (Admittedly, I've never been a huge lucha fan in the first place, but I've seen enough good matches from south of the border and it's not like I just say "oh it's lucha, then it must suck" or anything like that.) There were tons of blown spots and a lot of general sloppiness. Yeah, a lot of that came from the sheer complexity and difficulty of what they were trying; but still, a buncha botches is a buncha botches. They seemed like dress rehearsals for the cruiserweight matches in WCW, where they did a lot of the same neat stuff but tended to hit their moves cleaner and the matches were tighter and less plodding.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Jerry Lawler is also in the running for best US babyface and I'd definitely take him over Rey. I'd probably put Bill Dundee ahead of Rey as well. Rey over Steamboat seems fair but I need to see more of his 80s matches.

Lawler was a babyface ace which is a slightly different role than what I had in mind. Having said that Lawler is definitely an all time great babyface.

[jdw]

That's your argument John and you are entitled to it. I would say you are a guy who's threshold for great is quite high or at the very least much different from mine.

I'm a guy who thinks when the word "great" is tossed around like water in the Pacific, it has no meaning.

 

There were a lot of things in the 1994 Carny matches that would certainly qualify as "great" under the 2006-2010 Raw/SD! standards. I could have tossed it out a ton. To have some impact on the word, I used it emphatically for one specific match and across several matches for one specific worker:

 

* Hansen vs Taue

* Hansen as a worker

 

On Hansen as a worker, I focused the notion of"great" on him to try to get across that while we often think of 1993 as a career year for him and then him instantly hitting the wall, he actually was in terrific 1993 form as late as the 1993 Carny. It's would be a worthwhile side thread on Hansen at some point to ponder what happened after that (cause / effect / etc), which is another reason for the focus: "Okay, if he was great here... what happened?"

 

On Hansen-Taue, it was to draw attention to a never has gotten run but really does have some strong elements of greatness. Best match in the Carny? No... of course not. A match that stands out as something different... a different type of great from the usual AJPW suspects? Yes, that was the point.

 

I tossed the word great at Doc as a worker in an off hand fashion which implied/invited something for more consideration: he was good/improving in 1993 after Gordy went out, and we all know he got *really* good at some point. That point was no later than the Kawada-Williams draw... he was a helluva worker by that point, and it's not Kawada making him look good. But again, that was an off hand hint at something more.

 

Hansen in general and Hansen-Taue in specific... if there's anything that I wanted people to come out of that thinking about in terms of "great" when they're looking at Carny '94, I wanted them to *not* miss the greatness in those two thing compared to other wrestlers and matches that are the usual stuff.

 

I used other ways to put over other matches, and other workers. I really tried to avoid using the word "great" for Misawa-Kawada, though I suspect there were a lot of elements of the match/work that I could have sprinkled it on. I wanted people to think of it in a different context: a Flair-style match. Why? It's what popped into my head for the first time ever when watching it this time around. Pretty early in the match, didn't go away, had more stuff pop up supporting that bouncing around in the head, and thought I'd toss it out for others to ponder. Create a different context for people to consider the match rather than just "great" or "not as good as 06/03/94" or any of the other Misawa-Kawada matches or as a comp to the other matches available from that Carny set. Take it out of the context of just All Japan and drop it into the context of the gold standard of guys just going out there to do stuff to get the crowd going... well, that's Ric.

 

 

I'm also not sure who you are referring to with the collective "We."

I think all of us toss it would too much. I suspect if we do a search on any of us for the word great, we're not just limiting to the guy we would have ranked #6 all-time, or just is 10 or 20 or 50 greatest matches.

 

 

You might accuse me of being hyperbolic or going to unnecessary extremes in my Rey pimping here, but I happen to believe what I wrote. I literally believe Rey is the best week-to-week tv wrestler in history. I literally believe modern WWE churns out more week-to-week quality than any promotion in history. This isn't me trying to make a hard sell. It's me avoiding "hedging" and going on record with what I actually think.

I think we all know that.

 

You obviously don't agree with any of that and that is fine (this isn't an assumption on my part - form memory you didn't have a single post-02 match on your Best WWF ballot at SC and when I questioned you about whether you had seen the other stuff you insisted you had seen anything that would be relevant), but I'd rather not beat around the bush with my language.

In 2008 at the time of the poll? Yes, I'd watched everything post-2002 seriously pimped in the thread. And no, I never was as much of a fan of 00's (or even 90's) WWF/WWE as you are.

 

 

In your WWF thread you regularly talk about how things worked, or how they got reactions, or whether or not they are watchable, et. Despite years of being one of the most prominent Backlund pimps (er..) on the net, you still back away from talking about him as being "great" and when people question that the talk comes to how that is a difficult sell and you prefer to focus on what he was good at, getting him more credit, et. That is all well and good and that sort of attempt at "above the fray" analysis isn't without merit. But I would not write as much about someone as you have about Backlund if I didn't consider him great and I would have no problem saying "he's great" if the topic came up.

I've written a ton about Hogan. I don't consider him to be a great worker. Never will. But I do think it's worthwhile for people to shift from the old "Hogan sucks" meme we saw in the 80s to something along the lines of "He was a pretty effective worker" that I've tossed out quite a bit.

 

Backlund is somewhat similar. His rep was crap among hardcore fans. Frank started pointing out that perhaps he wasn't so crap, and I ran with it... arguably into the ground. But I've done it to point out different areas of Not Suck, Good, and even things that he does "great". Do I think he's a great worker? Beats the shit out of me. He's a good worker who was in some great matches, and a fair number of good matches. Do people really need more out of me to get across that I think the old meme about him was utter bullshit?

 

He also entertains me. I don't think only "greatness" entertains me.

 

I like Leverage, but wouldn't argue that it's great. I do think it's a fairly well thought out series, which is confirmed by the commentary tracks: Leverage Creative puts a fair amount of throught into the shows, even if they know they're making Entertainment and stick with a lot of it.

 

I like Castle, but admit it's just light entertainment. Again, it's a reasonably well thought out series from a light entertainment standpoint. But I watch it more in the sense of it being enjoyable, and fun to watch with my girlfriend.

 

I watch The Mentalist, and I actually think it's a pretty mediocre show overall but the lead is moderately interesting and there was just enough pull on his Red John arc to keep me going. It was something of a make/break season where if they didn't deliver an satifying advance in the Red John storyline, I would have ejected from it. They delivered, in some ways more than I had hoped (Red John!), and it's enough to get me to tune in next season for a while. But it's still a pretty mediocre show for what are obvious reasons if anyone slows down to think about it.

 

I've written more about Castle and The Mentalist in the past two years than I've written about Prime Suspect or Cracker, both of which I rewatched in the past year... and are REALLY FUCKING GREAT TV~!

 

Let's get real. We all wrote a shitload about Russo, and I don't think there's a one of us here who think he's great. Most of us think he's dog shit. Greatness isn't the sole reason to write a lot about someone.

 

Perhaps it's for you... but I actually doubt that everything you've written a lot about over the past 10+ years of being online was "great".

 

John

[Frankensteiner]

Modern WWE style (and I put the entire production into the word "style") has basically killed my love for wrestling and has only produced an entire landscape of dullness to me. Fuck modern WWE style. Good for those you can still find something to love in it, I sure can't no matter how many chance I give it. Like I said, either it has passed me by completely, either it really sucks.

The latter. Their presentation of wrestling is horrible. With that said, Rey Mysterio and Christian are two guys that I can still somewhat enjoy despite the shortcomings of modern WWE style. And although I think Rey is great, I would not call him a GOAT candidate.

[MJH]

I'm in the middle on the WWE in-ring style. Like the production, it's very protecting: a babyface has his set shine, his set comeback, his set entrance, his set pose, his set finish, a handful of set bumps; a heel has his set bumps, his set entrance, often his set rest-hold during the heat/control, his set 3/4 spots he works into the heat, his set finish. It's very choreographed and dot-to-dot/paint-by-numbers, but you can plug anyone of a moderate ability into it and they'll do OK, which is what it's designed to do.

 

Great workers can still have strong matches within it, but you do have to just accept the fact that Rey has to the do the 619 and, much much much more importantly, has to do it in such a way that the guy is in position for it so the crowd know it's coming. I might suggest "how about hitting it when the heel's crawling up the ropes and then just as his head pops above the middle *boom*...", but the reality is - even though I fully believe the crowd would recognise it/see it coming - the agents/Vince would chew the guys out for not milking it and the 'spot-that-puts-them-in-position' is a spot (ie; a pop) unto itself.

[Eduardo]

Personally, I really love the 619. Rey has come up with a variety of nifty and crafty ways to put a guy in that position. He's also been able to create lots of ways to tease the move. He's done a lot in the last nine years to keep that move as one of the most over spots of the last decade.

 

I agree with Dylan's thoughts of him being the best U.S. babyface in history. I don't think it's been brought up yet, but Rey's tag team work in the WWE has also been outstanding. Some of his work tagging with Batista in matches against MNM feature some fantastic work. The way he was cut off, bumping, selling and finally making the hot tag was on the same level of Ricky Morton.

[Sean Liska]

That's your argument John and you are entitled to it. I would say you are a guy who's threshold for great is quite high or at the very least much different from mine.

I'm a guy who thinks when the word "great" is tossed around like water in the Pacific, it has no meaning.

 

There were a lot of things in the 1994 Carny matches that would certainly qualify as "great" under the 2006-2010 Raw/SD! standards. I could have tossed it out a ton. To have some impact on the word, I used it emphatically for one specific match and across several matches for one specific worker:

 

 

 

I almost feel like you have to throw out 90s All Japan when having these discussions because it skews everything so much. To me, there's never been anything close to it and there never will be. The standards they set are so far beyond anything we'll ever see. Yeah, great WWE matches don't compare to great 90s AJPW matches, but what does? You're right, a random Jumbo-Misawa Korakuen 6-man tag from 1991 blows away almost everything we see today. But I think great modern WWE matches can compare with almost any other promotion from any other era.

[smkelly]

Here are the top one-hundred workers from the Smarkschoice GOAT Poll:

 

1. Jumbo Tsuruta – 4,594 points - 48 votes – 14 #1 votes - 35 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, Smoove Luv B, gordi, Mike Oles, ElPatoume, Ditch, Wolverine, Goodhelmet, wagnerpanther, Owen, Real Man’s man, Theseus, throughsilver, Famous Mortimer # 1

2. Toshiaki Kawada – 4,477 points - 48 votes – 7 #1 votes - 27 top 5 votes -36 top 10 votes - VHB Bozzaholic, Dangerous Dan, roro ur boat, JHM, Rainmaker, Monday Night Jericho, Ray #1

3. Chris Benoit – 4,442 points - 49 votes - 13 top 5 votes - 30 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Wild Pegasus #2

4. Jushin Thunder Liger – 4,388 points - 48 votes – 2 #1 votes - 15 top 5 votes - 34 top 10 votes - VHB Dan T, AoA #1

5. Kenta Kobashi – 4,311 points - 47 votes – 1 #1 vote - 15 top 5 votes - 40 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #1

6. Mitsuharu Misawa – 4,255 points - 47 votes – 12 top 5 votes - 28 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, gordi, throughsilver #2

7. Eddie Guerrero – 4,190 points - 49 votes – 3 #1 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, Eivion Thanotos, WOODOO #1

8. Ric Flair – 4,141 points – 48 votes – 8 #1 votes – 13 top 5 votes – 23 top 10 votes - VHB Floyd, Shozo the strong, anarchistxx, Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob, Shoe, Loss #1

9. Bret Hart – 3,707 points - 46 votes – 3 #1 votes – 9 top 5 votes – 13 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Slick Rick, Insane Clown #1

10. Stan Hansen – 3,669 points - 45 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 10 top 10 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #3

11. Terry Funk – 3,573 points - 43 votes – 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rocket Moose, Dylan Waco, Big Rob #2

12. Harley Race – 3,501 points - 42 votes – 1 #1 vote - 8 top 5 votes - 15 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Naylor #1

13. Ricky Steamboat – 3,301 points - 45 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #3

14. Dynamite Kid – 3,250 points - 45 votes – 2 #1 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus, Warriorfan #1

15. Akira Hokuto – 3,244 points - 36 votes – 1 #1 vote - 11 top 5 votes - 21 top 10 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #1

16. Steve Austin – 3,178 points - 44 votes – 2 top 5 votes - 8 top 10 votes - VHB anarchistxx, SE Williams #3

17. Vader – 3,157 points - 43 votes – 4 top 10 votes - VHB Big Rob #6

18. Aja Kong – 3,135 points - 38 votes – 4 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #2

19. Nobuhiko Takada – 3,062 points - 36 votes - 2 #1 votes - 8 top 5 votes - 17 top 10 votes - VHB Rob Edwards, Frank O’Keefe #1

20. El Hijo Del Santo – 2,922 points - 35 votes – 5 top 5 votes - 11 top 10 votes - VHB Smoove Luv B, Bix, Loss #3

21. Genichiro Tenryu – 2,870 points - 40 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes VHB Eivion Thanotos #5

22. Rey Mysterio Jr – 2,791 points - 39 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Eivion Thanotos #4

23. Jaguar Yokoda – 2,613 points - 32 votes – 1 #1 vote - 5 top 5 votes – 9 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #1

24. Shinya Hashimoto – 2,509 points - 38 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB WOODOO #6

25. The Destroyer – 2,463 points - 33 votes – 3 top 5 votes –4 top 10 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #3

26. Akira Taue – 2,439 points - 39 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #11

27. Shinjiro Ohtani – 2,409 points - 39 votes - VHB This Is Workrate #12

28. Barry Windham – 2,386 points - 37 votes - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #11

29. Manami Toyota – 2,299 points - 33 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB greenman #3

30. Giant Baba – 2,180 points - 27 votes - VHB Slick Rick #19

31. Mayumi Ozaki – 2,140 points - 29 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #5

32. Blue Panther – 2,099 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 5 top 10 votes VHB Stunning Grover #4

33. Hiro Hase – 2,069 points - 33 votes - VHB This Is Workrate, anarchistxx #20

34. Arn Anderson – 2,058 points - 35 votes - VHB Big Rob #11

35. Devil Masami – 2,014 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 5 top 10 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #3

36. Billy Robinson – 1,974 points - 27 votes - VHB Rocket Moose #11

37. Owen Hart – 1,963 points - 36 votes - VHB Ray #16

38. Negro Casas – 1,960 points - 25 votes – 3 top 5 votes – 5 top 10 votes - VHB Stunning Grover, wagnerpanther #2

39. Chigusa Nagayo – 1,958 points - 28 votes – 2 top 5 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB FLIK #3

40. Ted Dibiase – 1,942 points – 32 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB – SE Williams #1

41. Jerry Lawler – 1,927 points - 29 votes – 1 #1 vote – 2 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Bix #1

42. Volk Han – 1,920 points - 27 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 6 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #2

43. Bull Nakano – 1,832 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote VHB Mr Dragon #4

44. Randy Savage – 1,794 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Andrew D Lacelle #10

45. Curt Hennig – 1,786 points - 34 votes – VHB Mr Dragon #17

46. Shawn Michaels – 1,784 points - 30 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB Insane Clown #10

47. Terry Gordy – 1,717 points - 28 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Rob Naylor #3

48. Jack Brisco – 1,585 points - 25 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 2 top 10 votes - VHB Shoe #4

49. Bobby Eaton – 1,581 points - 30 votes - VHB Goodhelmet #24

50. Jun Akiyama – 1,557 points - 27 votes - VHB Ditch #16

51. Dick Murdoch – 1,521 points – 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Real man’s man #5

52. Steve Williams – 1,510 points - 32 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #13

53. Keiji Mutoh – 1,498 points - 30 votes - VHB Slick Rick #14

54. Steve Regal – 1,494 points - 30 votes - VHB Stunning Grover #13

55. Dave Finlay – 1,469 points - 27 votes – 1 #1 vote – 1 top 5 vote – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #1

56. Nick Bockwinkel –1,451 points - 24 votes - VHB SE Williams #11

57. Tully Blanchard – 1,442 points - 26 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #14

58. Tatsumi Fujinami – 1,441 points – 26 votes - 1 top 10 vote - VHB WOODOO #8

59. Mariko Yoshida – 1,438 points - 24 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #3

60. Dynamite Kansai – 1,381 points - 21 votes - VHB Wild Pegasus #16

61. Akira Maeda – 1,326 points - 24 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #11

62. Ultimo Dragon – 1,303 points - 32 votes - VHB throughsilver #15

63. Kiyoshi Tamura – 1,277 points - 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark, Theseus #8

64. The Rock – 1,268 points - 26 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB AoA #8

65. Kyoko Inoue – 1,176 points - 21 votes – 1 top 10 vote VHB FLIK #7

66. Kazuo Yamazaki – 1,173 points - 20 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Benoitsmark #10

67. El Dandy – 1,171 points - 19 votes – 4 top 5 votes – 4 top 10 votes VHB Ohtani’s Jacket, Bix #2

68. Tiger Mask – 1,143 points – 22 votes – VHB Warriorfan #11

69. Dory Funk Jr – 1,143 points – 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 3 top 10 votes – VHB Theseus #5

70. Mick Foley – 1,134 points – 23 votes – 2 top 10 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #9

71. Antonio Inoki – 1,121 points - 21 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Shozo the strong #5

72. Masahiro Chono – 1,034 points - 20 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #20

73. Lioness Asuka – 1,029 points – 20 votes – VHB FLIK #11

74. El Samurai – 1,020 points - 24 votes – VHB roro ur boat #27

75. Ricky Morton – 1,018 points - 20 votes - VHB Loss #19

76. Bob Backlund – 1,010 points – 21 votes – VHB Goodhelmet #19

77. Shiro Koshinaka - 957 points - 18 votes - VHB Theseus #14

78. Adrian Adonis - 938 points - 19 votes - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #22

79. Dump Matsumoto – 852 points – 17 votes – VHB Owen #15

80. Kurt Angle - 817 points - 21 votes - VHB AoA #23

81. Marc Rocco - 813 points - 18 votes - VHB Famous Mortimer #16

82. Lou Thesz - 811 points - 12 votes – 1 top 5 vote - 4 top 10 votes - VHB Benoitsmark #4

83. Great Sasuke – 801 points – 19 votes – VHB Warriorfan #23

84. Chris Jericho – 798 points – 22 votes – VHB AoA #24

85. Rick Rude – 794 points – 19 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #26

86. Hulk Hogan – 780 points – 15 votes – VHB SE Williams #13

87. TAKA Michinoku - 743 points - 19 votes - VHB Eivion Thanotos #18

88. Brian Pillman – 737 points – 18 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #23

89. Satanico - 735 points - 12 votes – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Bix #9

90. Dean Malenko – 716 points – 22 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle, Shozo the strong #25

91. Toshiyo Yamada - 699 points - 13 votes - VHB greenman #14

92. Psicosis - 682 points - 19 votes - VHB AoA #25

93. Tommy Rogers – 656 points – 17 votes – VHB Dylan Waco #35

94. Atlantis – 621 points – 12 votes – VHB Insane Clown #16

95. Dan Kroffatt – 619 points – 15 votes – VHB ElPatoume #26

96. Rick Martel – 598 points – 14 votes – VHB Andrew D Lacelle #32

97. Naoki Sano – 579 points – 14 votes – VHB Wild Pegasus #13

98. Dick Togo - 575 points - 19 votes - VHB Mr Dragon #38

99. Sgt Slaughter – 550 points – 14 votes – VHB Benoitsmark #32

100. Riki Choshu - 516 points - 13 votes - VHB Warriorfan #28

Some certainly interesting results though - some I agree with, some I don't.

 

It'd be interesting to see what a PWO poll would look like.

 

Post-Top One-Hundred:

(interesting, surprising, etc)

 

106. Masa Fuchi - 475 points - 10 votes – VHB WOODOO #19

107. MS1 – 471 points – 9 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Ohtani’s Jacket #4

111. Juventud Guerrera - 446 points - 11 votes - VHB throughsilver #31

117. Bryan Danielson – 390 points – 9 votes – VHB Ditch #15

119. Yoshiaki Fujiwara – 371 points – 8 votes – 1 top 5 vote – 1 top 10 vote - VHB Theseus #4

125. La Parka - 333 points - 12 votes - VHB wagnerpanther #44

134. Johnny Saint – 285 points – 7 votes – VHB Ditch #20

135. Steve Grey – 279 points – 6 votes – VHB Big Rob #33

136. Bill Dundee – 270 points – 7 votes – VHB Bix #44

137. Dustin Rhodes – 262 points – 8 votes – VHB FLIK #42

182. Clive Myers – 156 points – 4 votes – VHB Bix #12

196. Manny Fernandez – 124 points – 3 votes – VHB WOODOO #45

239. Buddy Rose – 73 points – 3 votes – VHB Bix #66

258. Shinobu Kandori – 59 points – 2 votes – VHB FLIK #55

264. Sean Waltman – 52 points – 3 votes – VHB Mr Dragon #80

275. Tracey Smothers – 44 points – 3 votes – VHB Dan T, Bix #85

291. Chris Candido – 27 points – 3 votes – VHB Dylan Waco, Insane Clown #90

294. Yoshihiro Tajiri – 26 points – 2 votes – VHB Mr Dragon, Theseus #88

337. Combat Toyoda – 36 points – 1 vote – VHB FLIK #65

425. CM Punk – 4 points – 1 vote – VHB Famous Mortimer #97

[El-P]

It's passed you by completely, because I can't see any argument that modern in ring WWE sucks.

There are plenty, they're out there, they've been exposed time and time again. The only reason I mention the fact that maybe it has passed me by is because I get absolutely nothing out of it each time I try to get back at it. While I can download any current puro card today I will surely enjoy it to a point despite all the very annoying things about current puro.

 

There are tons of things wrong with modern WWE. Poor booking, repetitious main event scene/lack of depth up top, terrible writing, bad promos, shitty announcing, annoying camera work. So much wrong with it that I don't blame people for not watching it despite the fact that I'm a fan.

Admit it's already enough to consider WWE as a pretty poor promotion overall. Add to that the shitty overproduced and übercontrolled in-ring style by mostly boring characters and dull workers, and you get the death of pro-wrestling as I like it. The thing I would agree is that it probably level things up to the point no-one can have really horrible matches (except the women, who are godawful) and if you have some basic talent you can look decent every time around. But I don't care about that. I would take any lively wrestling show with some good stuff and some awful stuff over that land of controled dullness that is modern WWE.

 

Not sure what I would point to as a milemarker for when that change hit, but I would guess if I went back and looked it would probably fall somewhere in the 04/05 corridor with Rey and Eddy being big parts of the jump start and Rey being the "ace" of that style essentially from day one.

When I watched stuff for the GOAT poll, I remember enjoying some post 2001 matches up to 2003-2004, and not much of everything past that, and that was a point there was still tons of "old-school" workers on the roster, so you may be right about 2004/2005 being the debut of the style as we know it.

[smkelly]

El-P -- Have you seen Umaga/Cena Last Man Standing?

[El-P]

El-P -- Have you seen Umaga/Cena Last Man Standing?

I was actually thinking about that one when I mentionned the "so-called great Cena matches" in the other thread. Good match, yep. I mean *good*.

[Victator]

Why is it not great?

 

 

As for WWE, with all the shitty Raw episodes they pump out there is no way WWE can be thought of as the best in ring American promotion.

[goodhelmet]

If your criteria begins and ends with RAW then you would be right. When you take Smackdown and Superstars into account, you are getting more quality free TV matches than at any other point from one promotion. Add the now-defunct WWECW and the number increases greatly. Early on in the yearboook process, 1992 Dangerous Alliance era WCW may have been the best era for matches with the Saturday Night Show, Worldwide, Pro, Power Hour, Main Event and random Clashes thrown in the mix. 1983-84 era World Class could be thrown in the mix for at least featuring marquee matches week in and week out. Portland in the late 70s and early 80s had great marquee matchess every week.

 

At this point in the conversation, name another point in time where wrestling fans have had a wealth of good-great matches every week from one company? As much as I love peak NWA from 1985-1987, you could go weeks before you would even get a full marquee match and even at that point, there was no guarantee the matches would be good. At what other point in WWE history can you point to where you got so much great wrestling on a weekly basis? Maybe 2000-2001 post-Russo WWF when they were pushing the Vanilla Midgets and there was an influx of Invasion guys. Prior to that point, great TV matches in the WWF were a rarity.

[El-P]

At what other point in WWE history can you point to where you got so much great wrestling on a weekly basis?

The issue is that if you don't consider the WWE product as great wrestling, then you're doomed, because they're pretty much the only game in town. TNA sucks way too much to even consider them as an alternative at this point.

[Victator]

If your criteria begins and ends with RAW then you would be right. When you take Smackdown and Superstars into account, you are getting more quality free TV matches than at any other point from one promotion. Add the now-defunct WWECW and the number increases greatly. Early on in the yearboook process, 1992 Dangerous Alliance era WCW may have been the best era for matches with the Saturday Night Show, Worldwide, Pro, Power Hour, Main Event and random Clashes thrown in the mix. 1983-84 era World Class could be thrown in the mix for at least featuring marquee matches week in and week out. Portland in the late 70s and early 80s had great marquee matchess every week.

 

At this point in the conversation, name another point in time where wrestling fans have had a wealth of good-great matches every week from one company? As much as I love peak NWA from 1985-1987, you could go weeks before you would even get a full marquee match and even at that point, there was no guarantee the matches would be good. At what other point in WWE history can you point to where you got so much great wrestling on a weekly basis? Maybe 2000-2001 post-Russo WWF when they were pushing the Vanilla Midgets and there was an influx of Invasion guys. Prior to that point, great TV matches in the WWF were a rarity.

You can't just separate Raw from the rest of the product. Its there and it lowers the average considerably. Honestly a lot of the 80s TBS squashes are more entertaining than some of the competitive matches on Superstars and Smackdown.

[Dylan Waco]

If your criteria begins and ends with RAW then you would be right. When you take Smackdown and Superstars into account, you are getting more quality free TV matches than at any other point from one promotion. Add the now-defunct WWECW and the number increases greatly. Early on in the yearboook process, 1992 Dangerous Alliance era WCW may have been the best era for matches with the Saturday Night Show, Worldwide, Pro, Power Hour, Main Event and random Clashes thrown in the mix. 1983-84 era World Class could be thrown in the mix for at least featuring marquee matches week in and week out. Portland in the late 70s and early 80s had great marquee matchess every week.

 

At this point in the conversation, name another point in time where wrestling fans have had a wealth of good-great matches every week from one company? As much as I love peak NWA from 1985-1987, you could go weeks before you would even get a full marquee match and even at that point, there was no guarantee the matches would be good. At what other point in WWE history can you point to where you got so much great wrestling on a weekly basis? Maybe 2000-2001 post-Russo WWF when they were pushing the Vanilla Midgets and there was an influx of Invasion guys. Prior to that point, great TV matches in the WWF were a rarity.

You can't just separate Raw from the rest of the product. Its there and it lowers the average considerably. Honestly a lot of the 80s TBS squashes are more entertaining than some of the competitive matches on Superstars and Smackdown.

 

It's a rare Raw nowadays that doesn't have at least one good match and usually the only really bad stuff is the divas matches. Raw is clearly weakest (excluding NXT) of the four shows over the last few years but it's hardly awful in the ring week-to-week.

 

I've watched a lot of 80's syndication and tv over the last few years and like squash matches more than most but WTBS squash matches v. Superstars from the last few years is a total slaughter victory for Superstars in terms of match quality.

[MJH]

You have to take into account how much TV they have, though. Raw/Smackdown/Superstars/NXT is 4hrs per week taking each hour as having ~20mins missing for the ads. Of those 4 hours, how much time is taken every week with good matches that'd score well on, say, the DVDVR Yes/No thread? You get maybe one or two matchs per week going into that, so, 25-30 minutes? ~12.5% isn't something to be celebrating. It's an equally small percentage of bad matches, yes, but matches you'd remember a few months from now?

[Childs]

Will, you need to knock out the last section of your Rey comp to demonstrate the sheer weight of his WWE excellence.

[jdw]

I almost feel like you have to throw out 90s All Japan when having these discussions because it skews everything so much. To me, there's never been anything close to it and there never will be. The standards they set are so far beyond anything we'll ever see. Yeah, great WWE matches don't compare to great 90s AJPW matches, but what does? You're right, a random Jumbo-Misawa Korakuen 6-man tag from 1991 blows away almost everything we see today. But I think great modern WWE matches can compare with almost any other promotion from any other era.

"Best Era of TV Wrestling By Any US Promotion"

 

That's one of the reasons I tossed out the Kobashi-Bossman match, which got no sold. Would that be "quality" / "good" in the current WWE standards.

 

Hardcores love Kobashi work.

Hardcores like Bossman's work.

There was some slow stuff.

There was some real cool stuff in it.

It was rocking down the stretch.

Kobashi is a master of working those matches.

It was on FREE TV~! so it's cool!

 

Or a different way:

 

Folks love Rey's work.

Folks like [let's toss in] Mark Henry's work.

There was some slow stuff.

There was some real cool stuff in it.

It was rocking down the stretch.

Rey is a master of working those matches.

It was on FREE TV~! so it's cool!

 

I'm not saying this was better than say the best Rey vs Mark Henry match... though one suspects that the Doc & Bossman vs Misawa & Kobashi / Kawada & Taue matches later in the tag league probably top anything that Rey-Henry have done together.

 

But one gets the feeling that Kobashi and Bossman working a match on free TV that was rated ** back then and crapped on by Dave would be something that if you dropped the equiv on Raw/SD! in 2006-2010 would be considered quality /good / etc. To the point that people would be regularly knocking Dave for giving it only **, much like his Cena-Umaga stuff is about as run into the ground as "Jumbo Was Lazy" by folks like me.

 

John

[Matt D]

WWECW in 2009 is one of my favorite wrestling shows ever.

 

Also, who just looks at Raw? With WCW, it'd be nuts to just look at Nitro (or even WCW SN before that) when the B shows were where some of the best TV matches were. Traditionally all the best WWF stuff was on PTWs or the televised house shows, by a WIDE margin. It was such a huge loss when they went off MSG in 92. I've seen most of 1984 Mid South TV now and I know I'm missing the best match stuff without the sister show.

[Dylan Waco]

I almost feel like you have to throw out 90s All Japan when having these discussions because it skews everything so much. To me, there's never been anything close to it and there never will be. The standards they set are so far beyond anything we'll ever see. Yeah, great WWE matches don't compare to great 90s AJPW matches, but what does? You're right, a random Jumbo-Misawa Korakuen 6-man tag from 1991 blows away almost everything we see today. But I think great modern WWE matches can compare with almost any other promotion from any other era.

"Best Era of TV Wrestling By Any US Promotion"

 

That's one of the reasons I tossed out the Kobashi-Bossman match, which got no sold. Would that be "quality" / "good" in the current WWE standards.

 

Hardcores love Kobashi work.

Hardcores like Bossman's work.

There was some slow stuff.

There was some real cool stuff in it.

It was rocking down the stretch.

Kobashi is a master of working those matches.

It was on FREE TV~! so it's cool!

 

Or a different way:

 

Folks love Rey's work.

Folks like [let's toss in] Mark Henry's work.

There was some slow stuff.

There was some real cool stuff in it.

It was rocking down the stretch.

Rey is a master of working those matches.

It was on FREE TV~! so it's cool!

 

I'm not saying this was better than say the best Rey vs Mark Henry match... though one suspects that the Doc & Bossman vs Misawa & Kobashi / Kawada & Taue matches later in the tag league probably top anything that Rey-Henry have done together.

 

But one gets the feeling that Kobashi and Bossman working a match on free TV that was rated ** back then and crapped on by Dave would be something that if you dropped the equiv on Raw/SD! in 2006-2010 would be considered quality /good / etc. To the point that people would be regularly knocking Dave for giving it only **, much like his Cena-Umaga stuff is about as run into the ground as "Jumbo Was Lazy" by folks like me.

 

John

 

Your post was no sold because I didn't understand the point of it.

 

I'm still not terribly sure what Dave's opinion on a twenty year old match has to do with Rey Jr.

 

A comp between Rey/Henry and Bossman/Kobashi based on Meltzer's opinion as a reference point isn't something I find relevant.

 

Compare the matches straight up if you like, but I don't see much value in theorizing about how one match would have rated in a different context using the opinions of a guy who's views on wrestling from the past have been questioned with consistency for several years now.

[El-P]

The point is the expectation dropped so much that average matches from 20 years ago happening today on free TV would have people go ga-ga over it today. Or something like that I guess.

[Ditch]

Dave pretty much set the tone for how a match was received in '93. Kobashi vs Bossman got a meager ** and isn't talked about despite being part of Kobashi's much-heralded 1993, and the quasi-heralded Bossman-in-AJ run. Any way you slice it, it was a lesser match from '93 AJ. How does WWE TV stack up with peak AJ TV, since we're discussing 'best TV product ever'.

 

I think a better comparison would be WWE TV to, say, three or four '80s territories, since WWE has so much airtime.