jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Looking at the talent that appeared on UWF TV from January through early April, here's what we have including some JTTS (like Gaylord) but not the pure jobbers (like Boyette): Angel of Death Bill Irwin Buddy Roberts Chavo Guerrero Chris Adams Eddie Gilbert Eli the Eliminator Fantastics (left the promotion in January) Gary Young Iceman Parsons Jack Victory Jeff Gaylord Jim Duggan (left the promotion in January) Michael Hayes Mike George Missing Link One Man Gang Rick Steiner Sam Houston Savannah Jack Steve Cox Steve Williams Sting Ted Dibiase Terry Gordy Terry Taylor The Super Ninja The Viking Good lord... the talent was worse than I recalled. :/ Breaking it down: Garbage - Little Value Angel of Death Bill Irwin Eli the Eliminator Gary Young Iceman Parsons Jack Victory Jeff Gaylord Mike George Missing Link Sam Houston Savannah Jack Steve Cox The Super Ninja The Viking I might take the most useful one or two of these guys to replace a prelimer or two in JCP that was a pain in the ass, or left, or just needed replacing. But I would look on the cheap end rather than anyone wanting serious money, and avoid the pains in the ass. Gone From UWF Fantastics (left the promotion in January) Jim Duggan (left the promotion in January) The Fans were in Dallas, so of course I would try to get them at some point. I certainly would have run MX vs Fans in 1987 rather than going to the well with MX vs R'n'R again. I also would have gone after the Midnight Rockers when they bombed in the WWF, turned them heels (the anti-R'n'R) and had some fun R'n'R & Fans vs MX & Midnight Rockers actions. Duggan... I would just treat as out of hand. Prelim Level in JCP - No Use Chavo Guerrero Not anything major for JCP. Asshole - Let Walk Chris Adams Good Prospects - Sign Rick Steiner Sting Very Useful Midcarders - Sign Eddie Gilbert Terry Taylor Main Event Talent I'd Let Walk One Man Gang Steve Williams I just think they're of limited long term value. I would *only* sign Doc if it was a make/break with Ted: he was willing to stay with the major push we intended for him, and he wanted his pal Doc to stay. But I'm not entirely sure he was that massive of a best pal with Doc. It's not like he ever got Doc into the WWF, and Doc worked for NJPW rather than AJPW. So... let them walk. Freebirds Buddy Roberts Michael Hayes Terry Gordy I would push the shit out of them and treat them as a massive impact "signing" by JCP. Key thing: they gotta win early and often. Make others chase them rather than them being total chicken shit heels. Major Main Eventer - Sign at all costs! Ted Dibiase And we talked about Ted. Sadly, there it doesn't look like there's any other talent in the UWF to lift than the guys we talked about earlier. I also think it tends to support my notion of not wasting time on a JCP vs UWF feud. There isn't depth there, and it just distracts from bigger things: Ted getting the world title, the Birds feuding with anyone we can line up against them, working long term on Sting and Rick, cultivating Taylor as a heel, and finding a good long term role for Eddie as a useful midcarder. Take Eddie. I think he's a far more useful person at that point than Paul Jones. You could easily build a stable with him as the mouthpiece of it... since that's exactly what he did in UWF. Depending on composition, it could be garbagey against a Valiant (though I'd be phasing Jimmy out in 1987), or less so against the likes of the R'nR (such as Sting & Steiner). Eddie can get in there and work as well. Rather than try to develop Eddie in a "Invasion feud" where he's a subplot, I'd rather just have him be his own plotline within JCP and not worry about him coming to the Birds rescue. I think there's also other talent out there. The Fans and the Midnight Rockers are examples of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 You also have to look at they just bought into CWF a month earlier and Central States months before that so basically what they did with UWF is what they did with the other two was cherry pick who they wanted. Regarding Doc & Gang, I would've kept both of them as Gang was at his peak as a worker at that time and we all know how great Doc was then. You could definitely get some value from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I might be willing to buy the argument that someone saw decent star potential in Sting relative to some of those other names, but no way in hell you are going to convince me that Sting was a more logical pick up in 87 than Williams or Gang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 On the make/break point, I think Ted was more like a mentor to Williams than a best buddy or anything like that. His big friends in the business were the Funks (especially Terry), Dick Murdoch, and Stan Hansen -- he was a West Texas State guy. His other big buddy to my knowledge was Jerry Stubbs (aka Mr. Olympia). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 You also have to look at they just bought into CWF a month earlier and Central States months before that so basically what they did with UWF is what they did with the other two was cherry pick who they wanted. There really wasn't anything to cherry pick out of Central States. With CWF, they cherry picked it before they bought it: Barry and Lex. Buying Central States was just stupid. With CWF, one would have to look at the deal to figure out what they paid vs what they got. The only thing of value that I think they could have gotten would be contracts for running buildings... but if CWF died, those buildings would have been wide open anyway. Regarding Doc & Gang, I would've kept both of them as Gang was at his peak as a worker at that time and we all know how great Doc was then. You could definitely get some value from them. It's a cost issue. Gang at his peak as a worker means... what? You're not going to work him at the top of the card against Flair. A Nikita vs Gang feud goes nowhere. Gang vs Dusty... Dusty tended to want to work with guys who bumped for him. Gang vs Barry goes nowhere. Finding someone to work as his partner... eh. He just has little value at the top of the card, or in the upper half. He's not going to stick around to be a mid-carder, and you don't really have mid-card faces for him. In the other direction... Vince offered him a shot against Hogan. Which he got, but it didn't exactly set the world on fire because even WWF fans didn't care that much about him relative to the guys who really got over. Beyond that, keeping and pushing Gang takes up the Fat Guy spot that Bubba could evolve into... and Bubba had more potential at that point than Gang. On Doc... he just wasn't over. He couldn't get himself over. It's kind of telling that his "most over" period in the US came when he was the #4 guy in the Varsity club. Not #4 in terms of protection, but in terms of storyline: Sully was the mouthpiece, Steiner got to be goofy (and got OVER), while Mike was the glue guy. To keep Doc, they paid him money that could have been spent on keeping Ted. I don't see how anyone could think that Doc was more valuable than Ted at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Rather controversially I think Williams basically sucked in 87-89. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered. I liked him in UWF in 1986. Did I think he had the potential to be a #1 babyface? No. But I liked him better than Barbarian and Teijo Khan and Warlord and Dingo Warrior in the Road Warrior Rip Off genre that was popping up. I thought he might be able to graduate out of it, drop the face paint and become a good heavy. That's why I used the term "prospect". He struck me as a good prospect in 1986, at a time when the others struck me as mediocre LOD clones. Of course Dingo did better than expected, but that was with Vince behind him rather than Hellwig having any talent (which he didn't). As far as the draw with Flair, people knew he had potential before that. His real coming out at Starcade where he was strongly over on the undercard. That opened up people's eyes. They saw enough potential in him that he got his first NWA Title shot against Flair just 10 days later... in Charlotte. He also got title shots in key battleground cities of Philly and Chicago... before 1987 was out. The Clash was actually well into Sting's push against Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I might be willing to buy the argument that someone saw decent star potential in Sting relative to some of those other names, but no way in hell you are going to convince me that Sting was a more logical pick up in 87 than Williams or Gang. You're confusing the point. Ted, Doc and Gang were all UWF main eventers making main event money. Given these choices: A. Ted B. Doc C. Gang jdw would select Ted. Easily. JCP selected Doc. They made no money off Doc. Vince selected Ted and Gang. It's debatable that he made any money off Gang. His run with Hogan wasn't strong relative to others. He then was nothing more than a mid carder. I don't see the need in JCP for a midcarder like Gang, nor do I expect him to stick around as a midcarder if Vince dangled a run against Hogan in front of him. Vince made a good money off Ted. Damn good money. Given those three choices, I think anyone in JCP's position at the time would be crackers to take Gang or Doc over Ted. Some here may disagree, but I sure as hell would like to here how they think JCP could make more money off either of them than Ted. If we want to think more about Gang, I would see the choices as: A. Gang B. Bubba And I would have taken Bubba, easily. Ironically, Vince took both... and made a hell of a lot more money off Bubba than Gang. I didn't envision that level of stardom for Bubba, but I did like him considerably more than Gang in 1986 and 1987 as a person on the roster. Admittedly, Gang always bored the living shit out of me, while I always dug Bubba after the spot when Dusty clocked him in the skull with the chair and Bubba no sold it. As far as Sting, he's not a choice relative to those two. He's something different. Sting was a UWF midcarder, a young one, making UWF midcard money. As was Steiner. I'm picking them over a pain in the ass like Chris Adams. I'm picking them over that slew of shitty talent that I labeled "Garbage". The non-main event talent that I wanted was Taylor (as a heel if anyone in JCP was smart enough to see it), Gilbert (who I always liked as a mid-card anchor), and Sting & Steiner as prospects. The first time I saw Sting live was in September 1987 at the Forum: JCP @ Inglewood, CA - Great Western Forum - September 23, 1987 Steve Cox defeated Gary Young Shane Douglas, Brad Armstrong, & Tim Horner defeated the Enforcer, Shaska Whatley, & Tiger Conway Jr. Michael Hayes & Ron Simmons defeated Big Bubba & the Terminator UWF Western States Heritage Champion Barry Windham defeated Rick Steiner Terry Taylor & Eddie Gilbert defeated Sting & Shane Douglas UWF World Champion Steve Williams defeated Black Bart NWA US Champion Lex Luger defeated NWA TV Champion Nikita Koloff NWA World Champion Ric Flair fought Ron Garvin to a no contest He was more over that Doc... frankly, since he was fresh and got to do all the cool stuff for his team, he was more over than Nikta. This isn't terribly complex. I'm not looking at it in hindsight. I'm looking at it how I did then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Rather controversially I think Williams basically sucked in 87-89. I wanted to like him. I found him flat for much of his matches. I found the crowd just not clicking for him as much as others. I found his ability to work the crowd to be mediocre relative to others. That's on JCP house show cards in 1987. The boredom people had over him at Starcade wasn't an exception. :/ As a worker, I never thought he was terribly interesting until 1993 when Gordy overdosed. Not going to say he was shit, or that he didn't have moments. But he was generally flat for me. He became very good when Gordy went out, and by the 1994 Carny series he was flat out great. It wasn't because Kawada or Kobashi or Misawa were making him look good. He had a smarter, better match than any of those three against Akiyama in the Carny, and it really was Doc being terrific that made it a good match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 What if you team Bubba and Gang? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Same for me jdw, although I've still not seen his much pimped Japanese stuff. Doc completely hasn't clicked with me in any of his NWA run. Think he's actively bad through 88, frequently the worst worker on the card, and then merely ok in 89. This will sound too harsh, but if I had to make a comparison, I'd say he was like a WWF Jim Duggan without the heat (or charisma). Definitely a guy I don't "get" when it comes to people's love for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Okay... let's think about that: #1 - it takes Bubba away from Cornette That's a very bad idea. #2 - Road Warriors vs Gang & Bubba The Road Warriors tended to have shittier matches than usual against Big Fat Guys. Their series with Quake & Tugboat was essentially the death of them in the WWF: the Roadies can't do all their Cool Power Shit with Big Fat Motherfuckers. So it's a waste: you want guys who can bump and sell for the LOD. #3 - R'n'R vs Gang & Bubba Did the R'n'R ever have a great sustained feud in Mid South or JCP with Big Fat Guys? I don't recall a sustained one. Their best in that era (you know... the era when they actually drew shitloads of fans) was against crafty, nasty heels who could southern tag with the R'n'R but then stooge and bump their asses off when it was time for the R'n'R's spots. #4 - Dusty & Nikita vs Gang & Bubba I don't see anything good out of that. If I had room for a Fat Guy, I wanted Bubba in 1986... 1987... and every point after that. Of course I'm not the mark for Big Fat Fuckers like other people are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Williams doesn't even get really good until he spent some time in Japan. He really is pretty green for most of his UWF/Crockett stuff. Hasn't learned how to put it altogether yet. Also his "I'm a tough guy" thing was better for him in Japan with the generally more toned down gimmicks. It was a good environment for him to wind up in. He probably peaked around 1994 with the running stuff vs. Kawada, although he's sometimes great in the early 90's as Gordy's sideman, and getting to work against Hansen a lot probably didn't hurt either. There is one thing I do disagree with JDW on for sure though: Rick Steiner and Sting were good prospects. I very much would have looked to keep them, and looked to find some way to keep Sting out of the eye of Vince. That's my worst nightmare as JCP: Vince getting Sting to be a far better version of Warrior. Now I don't disagree that with hindsight losing Sting would have been a disaster for Crockett. But I really doubt Sting becomes a big deal in the WWF in that era. Sting would have bombed in WWF. I see no reason to think he becomes anything bigger than Owen Hart in the late 80's. He's exactly the kind of worker who at that point Vince would have either fucked up outright, or just killed off feeding him to monsters. People would have laughed for years at how Warrior got pushed over this guy, but I still see that happening. Warrior is nuts and can't string coherent sentences together, so saying "Sting can't talk" seems harsh, but Warrior's rambling hooked people for whatever reason. Sting at that point trying to promo in the WWF would have been awful. I really don't see Sting faring well if he'd gone to Vince instead of to Crockett. I don't disagree with the basic premise that you want Sting. I do think the idea that he'd have taken Warrior's spot is hard for me to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Same for me jdw, although I've still not seen his much pimped Japanese stuff. Doc completely hasn't clicked with me in any of his NWA run. Think he's actively bad through 88, frequently the worst worker on the card, and then merely ok in 89. This will sound too harsh, but if I had to make a comparison, I'd say he was like a WWF Jim Duggan without the heat (or charisma). Definitely a guy I don't "get" when it comes to people's love for him. Duggan was a valuable guy. He flat out had charisma. The WWF turned it more cartoonish, be he got over well there. Other things being equal, I would be happy to add Hacksaw to Ted in JCP. The problem I keep hitting on: he had a boner for the WWF, one that Vince tickled mightily despite being under a locked up contract with Watts, and he become such a pain in the ass to be around that Watts felt the need to tell his Top Babyface to get the fuck out of town. A Face that he pretty much knew he couldn't replace, and within three months Bill was out of business. That's one major pain in the ass. He wasn't one in the WWF because that's exactly where he wanted to be. :/ I just don't have any confidence that he would have been happy in the JCP. Ted is a bit different. I don't think Ted knew how happy and how pushed he'd be in the WWF until the shit happened. If you're JCP and you're able to get to him instantly with a Plan ("Ted... we're making you NWA Champ!" + Main Event Money), you might be able to forestall him seeing if Vince had something for him. If you get him in, and he gets happy... you might never need to worry about him going to the WWF (i) while you're pushing him at the upper part of the cards, and (ii) while JCP isn't going out of business. Ted just seems the 100% most obvious guy that you talk to the second Bill agrees to sell. You call him, explain the plan, and have a new contract for him to sign Right Now. Granted... I never would have bought the UWF. I would have let it die, or let Vince buy it. I would have instead picked off those people that I listed above. Vince wasn't going to sign the Birds. Eddie was too small. I think Steiner flew under his radar. Taylor was out there for a long time before Vince signed him in the middle of 1988, and even then he didn't seem to have a clue over Terry being a solid midcard (undercard in the WWF) heel. With Sting... Vince certainly had the chance to grab him throughout the UWF's life, and in the transition. It would be interesting to figure out when JCP signed him to a multi-year contract. Anyway, of you let the UWF die or hoped Vince would waste money on it, Sting would have been available for them to sign as a prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 There is one thing I do disagree with JDW on for sure though: Rick Steiner and Sting were good prospects. I very much would have looked to keep them, and looked to find some way to keep Sting out of the eye of Vince. That's my worst nightmare as JCP: Vince getting Sting to be a far better version of Warrior. Now I don't disagree that with hindsight losing Sting would have been a disaster for Crockett. But I really doubt Sting becomes a big deal in the WWF in that era. Sting would have bombed in WWF. I see no reason to think he becomes anything bigger than Owen Hart in the late 80's. He's exactly the kind of worker who at that point Vince would have either fucked up outright, or just killed off feeding him to monsters. People would have laughed for years at how Warrior got pushed over this guy, but I still see that happening. Warrior is nuts and can't string coherent sentences together, so saying "Sting can't talk" seems harsh, but Warrior's rambling hooked people for whatever reason. Sting at that point trying to promo in the WWF would have been awful. I really don't see Sting faring well if he'd gone to Vince instead of to Crockett. I don't disagree with the basic premise that you want Sting. I do think the idea that he'd have taken Warrior's spot is hard for me to believe. If Sting jumped to the WWF in April 1988 coming off the Clash, he would have been a huge star if Vince decided to push him hard. Warrior was feuding with Herc. Vince was pushing the shit out of him, but it hadn't reached overdrive yet. Of course Warrior as a musclehead fit more into Vince's vision of pro wrestling than Sting did. Just saying: if Sting went there, and the WWF chose to give him the push that they did Warrior, Sting would have gotten over just as much, and sustained it better than Warrior. Hell... Warrior was already bombing after he got the title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 And you finally hit the mark just now. They should've never bought the UWF to begin with but they did it of course for the syndication package. Another thing that hasn't been brought up was they were already planting seeds for a DiBiase heel turn before he decided to sign with Vince. UWF TV 5/24/87 UWF Commissioner John Ayers comes out and introduces the new UWF Top 10 with Doc being #1 and DiBiase being #2 and that they would wrestle each other soon to determine who would face Bubba next. DiBiase & Doc come to the stage and DiBiase looks disappointed to be #2. This was the kickstart for the DiBiase heel turn but WWF came a calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Death - 100% agreed with you on Sting in WWF. I've actually been very disappointed in him in general revisiting some of his late 80s stuff and watching much of it for the first time. I had a conception of Sting being really rather good based mostly on his early 90s stuff, but it's plain to see that he wasn't all that in 87, 88 or even by 89. Pales in comparison to Luger. Crappy promo. Seems to have timing issues on his comebacks. Can really half-arse it when he's not in the mood. I honestly think the guy lacked X Factor. DESPITE all of that, he was super over. I don't believe he would have been in the more colorful world of WWF. He would have sunk without a trace, you are right about it. jdw - I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Ted is the one lock pick from the Watts roster, but I do think that Ted had some idea that what Vince had in store for him was special in some way. It was definitely sold to him as something out of the ordinary -- or at least that's how he tells it. It's really a case of whether the prospect of that + New York would mean more or less to him than title + money. However, I think Ric would have had a real problem with a guy like DiBiase coming in and taking the spot you've outlined. What do we know about Ted's career? He didn't do politics as well as the other big 80s stars, he mainly just did what he was told -- much less ego than some of the others. You think Ted going into such a political environment would have been able to hold onto the belt for long even if he was given it? I know it's fantasy booking, but this is surely a consideration. Assuming you can lure Ted away from Vince's offer, what do you do with Dusty? How do you placate Flair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 For what it's worth, Ted said in interviews at the time that he didn't go to JCP because everything was too cliquish and he wouldn't have had a fair chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 And Loss hits another biggie. DiBiase was very vocal about Dusty as a booker and how he pushed people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Oh... I totally agree about Dusty, and even mentioned in one of the posts about Dusty pushing Dusty's Wrestlers. Anyone surprised in hindsight that the Birds bombed out of JCP without Dusty giving them any push of note, while Hayes was split off into a singles to fade for much of 1987? Dusty only went to him after Starcade when he was short on options, and it was Sting and Hayes splitting the workload opposite Flair. Dusty wouldn't make Ted the world champ. He wouldn't turn Flair face. Dusty wouldn't run a JCP vs UWF feud were the UWF was put over strong enough for people to go from not giving a shit about the UWF to actually buying into the feud. So if we're going to limit our Fantasy Booking on what could have Done Business to simply what Dusty Would Have Done while he was running the company into the ground in 1987... then there's only one form of Fantasy Booking: Exactly What Happened Because that's all Dusty would do. But if we're going beyond that... then signing Ted is fair game. We take Dusty out of the equation, you tell Ted he's going to be NWA Champ, you lay out a two year road map for him, you drop a contract in him for the minimum he's going to be paid, and you have Flair talk to him about how much he's looking forward to working with him in the big matches/angles... then I think you can sign him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 I still don't think Flair or his ego would have been easily convinced of this idea. Ted comes in. Takes his spot in the Horsemen. His belt. And we know he didn't like working face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered. Eddie Gilbert did. Pre Clash. But he was probably the only one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 If you frame it as a choice between Doc and Ted as jdw does, obviously you take Ted. But so far as I know there is less than no evidence to support the theory that that is what occurred. If I'm wrong point me to it, but as far as I know the reality is that Ted went with Vince and was probably going to take Vince over any offer Crockett could have made. My point was if you ignore the fantasy world where Ted goes to Crockett, I find it hard to believe that anyone in 86/87 would say "Boy that Sting is a MUCH better pic up than Doc or Gang!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 31, 2013 Report Share Posted July 31, 2013 Man, to hell with the UWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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