Ric Flair (sigh)

[Johnny Guitar]

Death - 100% agreed with you on Sting in WWF. I've actually been very disappointed in him in general revisiting some of his late 80s stuff and watching much of it for the first time. I had a conception of Sting being really rather good based mostly on his early 90s stuff, but it's plain to see that he wasn't all that in 87, 88 or even by 89. Pales in comparison to Luger. Crappy promo. Seems to have timing issues on his comebacks. Can really half-arse it when he's not in the mood. I honestly think the guy lacked X Factor. DESPITE all of that, he was super over. I don't believe he would have been in the more colorful world of WWF. He would have sunk without a trace, you are right about it.

Sting had way more upside than the Warrior.

 

Vince and Pat of 1987 would have recognized this and pushed him and booked him accordingly.

[ButchReedMark]

Is The Viking from the UWF Tony Halme or someone else?

[jdw]

Death - 100% agreed with you on Sting in WWF. I've actually been very disappointed in him in general revisiting some of his late 80s stuff and watching much of it for the first time. I had a conception of Sting being really rather good based mostly on his early 90s stuff, but it's plain to see that he wasn't all that in 87, 88 or even by 89. Pales in comparison to Luger. Crappy promo. Seems to have timing issues on his comebacks. Can really half-arse it when he's not in the mood. I honestly think the guy lacked X Factor. DESPITE all of that, he was super over. I don't believe he would have been in the more colorful world of WWF. He would have sunk without a trace, you are right about it.

"Good" really isn't relevant in the WWF. Warrior got pushed, and he sucked. Not just work, but in promos and in charisma. Stink was a better worker, better on the mic, and had more charisma. Warrior had a great "Vince Look", which I don't even want to call a "WWF Look" since the number of wrestlers who looked like Warrior and drew money for Vince is exactly... ZERO. Even Hogan in 1984-88 didn't look like Warrior. We need to note that Sting *did* have a great look: no one ever has said he looked like Adonis... or even Arn... or Bret. Bodywise, he was bigger than Savage in his 1986-89 prime before Randy later lost his mind on the juice. Savage had other elements that made for a great "look", but Sting with the blond hair stood out from the other face paint Road Warrior Clones.

 

Seriously... other than give Vince a muscled headed boner and have a far better promotion behind him, what did Warrior do better than Sting? I can't think of anything. And I'm far from the biggest Sting Fan around. But if you tossed him in Warrior's spot, he would have more than held up his end... and frankly been an easier person for the WWF to send around promoting the company (like they did with Hulk and Randy).

 

 

jdw - I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Ted is the one lock pick from the Watts roster, but I do think that Ted had some idea that what Vince had in store for him was special in some way.

He had no idea until he talked to Vince. At which point the magic words, "Pushed Against Hogan" are really the only things that mattered.

 

You've missed my point:

 

Take Vince the fuck out of it. Ted didn't meet with Vince before JCP and Watts started negotiating. If I'm negotiating with Watts, I tell Bill something early: "I can't do a deal without locking up Ted. He's your ace, and he'd be the key for us. We need to bring him in and talk to him, the both of us, and get him to commit."

 

Of course it needs to be secret because the whole JCP-Watts thing was. But if Ted is the key for you (as he is for me - he's the only freaking person who is a MUST for me in the entire UWF), then you work with Watts to bring him in. And once in, you stone cold lock him down.

 

 

However, I think Ric would have had a real problem with a guy like DiBiase coming in and taking the spot you've outlined.

"Ric... after Barry we've got Brad, Jimmy Garvin and a re-run with Ronnie for you the rest of the year. We're going to try a PPV at Starcade like Mania, so we're going to need you to drop it to Ronnie so you can challenge at Starcade to win it back. Well... yeah... business is already down early this year, but that's all were really have lined up for your this year. Since you get paid on what the gates are, it's going to be a down year in pay relative to out hot year last year.

 

Well... we do have this other idea. We have the chance to sign DiBiase. Rather than dropping the title to Ronnie, we have a chance to do this. You drop it to Ted. To have your challenging at Starcade really pack some power, like back in 1983, we should go with you as the face, and Ted being the heel like he was several years ago in Mid South. Yeah, he was a pretty good heel. The Carolina fans coming out to see you get the Gold back again.

 

Well... we have another idea to really give it power. We can have Arn, Tully, JJ and Lex turn on you and Ted not only take the title, but your place in the Horsemen. Tully screws you over like he did with Dusty last year. That let's us run matches with you and prior to Starcade while Ted defends against other faces like Dusty, Barry and Nikita. That saves your matches with Ted to go around the horn after Starcade, where we can run another angle where your out for vengeance demanding cage matches to keep the Horsemen out while you get your hands on Ted.

 

As a face, you're something of a Lone Wolfe because off all the years of things you've done to Dusty, Nikita, Barry, the Rock 'n' Roll and everyone. Slowly some come to your side against the Horsemen.

 

When we've run our course on that, we can turn you back, probably around the time we turn Lex face out of the Horsemen for a big push."

 

The first two are likely all you need to convince Ric. He's going to lost the title anyway to Ronnie, and Ric is going to know that's not a Starcade main event. You play to him to be getting the belt back in NC, and being the face to the crowd. He also likely knows it's a big money match, while matches with Brad, Jimmy and Ronnie are... sucky. There's money to be made here, and money was already down in early 1987 even with Flair-Barry. They needed something hot, and you're giving Ric the NWA Angle Of The Year... and it's a freaking huge one.

 

 

What do we know about Ted's career? He didn't do politics as well as the other big 80s stars, he mainly just did what he was told -- much less ego than some of the others. You think Ted going into such a political environment would have been able to hold onto the belt for long even if he was given it?

Like Ron Garvin did politics? He was an old outlaw wrestler.

 

Ron had the title from Sep-25-1987 through Nov-26-1987, a total of 62 days. What I'm proposing is Ted having it from roughly Jul-11-1987 (the big Greensboro card) through Nov-26-1987, a total of 138 days. It's only twice as long. I *might* be tempted to run it in June so that the Bash could be booked and sold with Ted as champ rather than trying to re-work it faux "on the fly" and try to sell that hard on TV. It doesn't leave much time for people to decide to go. So Ted would have the belt between 138 days and say 166 days (either 6/13/87 in Baltimore or the next night in Charlotte).

 

The Freebirds promo first aired on May 16 on TBS. JJ was pimping Horsemen vs Birds on the June 7 Omni card (JCP ran Greensboro the night before)... another pair of cards for the potential first title change. The Birds weren't on TBS until June 6. I think I'd try to get Ted in before that, and try to lay some minor hints of the Horsemen wondering about Ric, and someone (be it JJ or Tully) making some comments about Ted not being one of those young guns who someday might be a world champion, but someone who right now is world champion level and the Horsemen all need to be on their toes. Might be good to keep Ric off TBS that first time Ted shows up. Don't even bother having Ted wrestle, just an inteview putting him over as major. JJ can come out, put him over, but give the proper "The Horsemen are an entire different group than you're use to dealing with" warning. Etc.

 

Anyway... we're not talking about Ted being Champ for a hell of a lot longer than Ronnie. We're basically replicating what Race did in 1983: Jun/Jul through Starcade. Then giving Ted a tail of additional cage match main events around the horn with Flair after Starcade for a little "Starcade On Tour" action.

 

 

I know it's fantasy booking, but this is surely a consideration. Assuming you can lure Ted away from Vince's offer,

Again, we're not luring him away from Vince. We're hooking him before Vince. It's not like Vince had a meeting with him in December 1986 to steal him.

 

 

what do you do with Dusty?

That's the question in any fantasy booking, which ends in a Zero Sum game: Dusty did what Dusty did, so why should we bother coming up with alternatives.

 

As far as in this scenario, Dusty gets another ride chasing the World Title: challenges against Ted. You also can either having him be the first to come to Ric's help (which I wouldn't, but maybe that works for Dusty's ego), or you have him being the Big Last Guy to Join Hands with Ric (which storyline works better... and might just be even better for Dusty's ego since everyone would be waiting for "What's Dusty Going To Do"?). There's lots of big matches for Dusty in this.

 

 

How do you placate Flair?

Ric was going to lost the World Title anyway. He wins it back at the exact some point. In the place of matches with Jimmy Garvin and Ron Garvin, he gets them against Tully and Ted and the rest of the Horsemen. Rather than a silly angle with Precious and the Garvins, he gets the biggest angle in JCP since Flair & Arn & Ole broke Dusty's leg. When the time is right, Ric flips back to heel... lining up perfectly for when Lex is turned face for a run against Ric.

 

I'm at a loss on how one needs to placate Ric in this. It's a storyline that will make him more money that he did in 1987, with a better storyline, and a hot issue for Starcade.

[JerryvonKramer]

Death - 100% agreed with you on Sting in WWF. I've actually been very disappointed in him in general revisiting some of his late 80s stuff and watching much of it for the first time. I had a conception of Sting being really rather good based mostly on his early 90s stuff, but it's plain to see that he wasn't all that in 87, 88 or even by 89. Pales in comparison to Luger. Crappy promo. Seems to have timing issues on his comebacks. Can really half-arse it when he's not in the mood. I honestly think the guy lacked X Factor. DESPITE all of that, he was super over. I don't believe he would have been in the more colorful world of WWF. He would have sunk without a trace, you are right about it.

Sting had way more upside than the Warrior.

 

Vince and Pat of 1987 would have recognized this and pushed him and booked him accordingly.

 

I don't get what this is meant to mean. You mean the Vince and Pat of this fantasy world? Real-life Vince and Pat of 1987 didn't take Sting.

 

But if you tossed him in Warrior's spot, he would have more than held up his end... and frankly been an easier person for the WWF to send around promoting the company (like they did with Hulk and Randy).

This is something I've talked about before: why is Sting seem as a guy whose physique is comparable to the Warrior's or Luger's? He just didn't have that build.

 

Sting:

 

Warrior:

 

Sting:

 

Warrior:

 

Why is it even suggested that he could step into that spot? It's like replacing Batista with Chris Jericho. Sting is a much smaller guy.

[jdw]

I still don't think Flair or his ego would have been easily convinced of this idea. Ted comes in. Takes his spot in the Horsemen. His belt. And we know he didn't like working face.

Ric worked face in 1983, he worked as a face in JCP after that, and he would work as face again in 1989. Some of his best business was as a face. If it's for a storyline like vs Race in 1983 and Funk in 1989, he could do it... and do it GREAT in angles and storylines.

 

The "belt" thing... I'll keep repeating this: Garvin was getting the belt, and would drop it back to Flair on the same exact day that Ted did. Just in a lesser match with no real emotional payoff (unless it was the fans being thankful that Ron's useless reign was over... which is a BAD THING for the Belt and title).

 

Ted isn't really taking his spot. It's a freaking storyline, and you go in with Ric knowing that he'll turn back when Lex is turned. Which was always a plan: Lex to work with the Horsemen and learn the ropes a bit more, then turn face. This just extends it our another 3-6 months before the turn. Rather than right after Starcade, pushed into sometime in early 1988 when Flair's run at the Top Face (at that point a Face Champ) runs out and needs to go back to being the Top Heel (and at that point the Heel Champ).

[jdw]

Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered.

Eddie Gilbert did. Pre Clash. But he was probably the only one.

 

So why was Sting getting World Title matches against Flair 10 days after Starcade 1987, which is three months before the Clash? Gilbert didn't book that. Dusty did. These weren't title shots in Albany, GA, either. Charlotte, Houston, Greensboro, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, St. Louis and Chicago. The first NWA Pro of 1988?

 

NWA PRO WRESTLING 1/2/88

Clip - Bunkhouse Battle Royal

Midnight Express w/Jim Cornette vs. MIke Force & Cougar Jay

Interview- Post Match - Midnight Express & Jim Cornette

Kevil Sullivan vs. Rocky King

Dr Death Steve Williams vs. Tommy Angel

Interview- Nikita Koloff

Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Gary Royal & J Savage

Interview- Post Match - Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

Road Warriors vs. ????? & ?????

Interview- Dusty Rhodes

The Warlord w/ Teijo Kahn & Paul Jones vs. George South

Interview- Lex Luger - attacked by Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

Ric Flair vs. Sting

Two weeks later, it was Arn & Tully vs Barry & Sting on World Wide. The gate crashing with Sting challenging Flair was a couple of weeks after that. They knew fairly quickly what they had. Again, Dusty is booking all this. He saw something in 1987 and kept upping Sting's push as the year went along.

[jdw]

If you frame it as a choice between Doc and Ted as jdw does, obviously you take Ted. But so far as I know there is less than no evidence to support the theory that that is what occurred. If I'm wrong point me to it, but as far as I know the reality is that Ted went with Vince and was probably going to take Vince over any offer Crockett could have made.

What happened is what happened. So why don't we delete all the fantasy booking since it isn't what happened. It's circular and gets us nowhere.

 

Ted was in the UWF when it was sold. He was in it while the sale was being negotiated. Even after the sale, he stuck around before heading to Vince as the heel turn comment was posted above (and there even was Ted on commentary of Doc's arm getting "broken"). My comment was/is on getting to Ted before he even thinks about talked to Vince. I mean... if Vince had a massive boner for him, he could have signed him at the same time he was chasing Duggan. He didn't.

 

 

My point was if you ignore the fantasy world where Ted goes to Crockett, I find it hard to believe that anyone in 86/87 would say "Boy that Sting is a MUCH better pic up than Doc or Gang!"

I suspect no hardcores in 1987 thought anything about Gang, and didn't care that he left. If they cared about anything, it was that Bubba leaving wasn't a good sign for JCP (nor was Rude leaving while being WTT champ).

 

There isn't much of an indicated that JCP gave a shit about Gang either. They quickly got the belt onto Bubba, which is pretty much a slap at Gang. In turn... JCP did happen to keep Sting, give him a push, and eventually turn him (Sting joining Adams in the feud against Taylor & Gilbert). So the evidence tends to indicate that JCP care more about Sting than another big fat guy. That's not inconsistent with Dusty: he didn't seem to push a lot of fatboy heels at the top... or even in the middle... or even in the prelims. He pushed Kamala very briefly for one big match, then pitched him. The other one he pushed was Bubba, which at the merge came at the expense of Gang. Doesn't say much for what he thought of Gang.

 

And yes... I know about Bigelow. That really smacked of desperation when the company was in the tank and people were leaving left and right. I tend to think that if you look at the love of Fatboys by Vince & Pat in the 1985-88 period vs Dusty's, it's not even close. Perhaps Dusty wanted the fatboy genre to himself, even if he didn't play Fat Monster.

 

Anyway...

 

On Doc vs Sting, you're talking apples and oranges. Sting was a cheap prospect. Think Rey Jr. in 1996. Doc and Ted were main eventers, making main event money. Think Kevin Nash and Shawn Michaels. In 1996, I'd rather have Shawn (Ted) over Nash (Doc). That doesn't mean I can't also get Rey (Sting), nor does it mean that in getting Rey that I think Rey is going to make me more money than Nash would. Only that I want Shawn badly, would rather spend on him than Nash, and Rey is sitting out there for next to nothing so why don't I take a flyer on the prospect as well.

 

What you're arguing about... I never said. Nor implied. Thought my breaking down of talent into buckets was explicitly clear.

[jdw]

I don't get what this is meant to mean. You mean the Vince and Pat of this fantasy world? Real-life Vince and Pat of 1987 didn't take Sting.

What were are talking about is that *if* Sting ended up in the WWF in 1987 almost as an after thought like he ended up in JCP in 1987, "Vince and Pat of 1987 would have recognized this and pushed him and booked him accordingly." They were quite receptive to someone getting over with the fans. Look at Razor Ramon and Undertaker. Look even at Diesel as the bodyguard for Shawn. Vince and Pat didn't foresee how big those guys would get when they debuted.

 

 

 

This is something I've talked about before: why is Sting seem as a guy whose physique is comparable to the Warrior's or Luger's? He just didn't have that build.

No one said he did. Put he was pushed as a Power Guy, even while Lex was in the same promotion. And he got over with the fans every bit as much as Lex did. He and Lex spent four year vying/sharing the same spot.

 

Why is it even suggested that he could step into that spot? It's like replacing Batista with Chris Jericho. Sting is a much smaller guy.

Put the bong down. Sting isn't Jericho.

 

Warrior's "spot" was the #2 Babyface to Hogan. It's one that Sting easily could have stepped into as well as Warrior did. Frankly better since he did everything better than Warrior other than give Vince a Muscle Boner.

[KrisZ]

The Viking was former Memphis jobber Keith Roberson

[KrisZ]

I still don't think Flair or his ego would have been easily convinced of this idea. Ted comes in. Takes his spot in the Horsemen. His belt. And we know he didn't like working face.

Ric worked face in 1983, he worked as a face in JCP after that, and he would work as face again in 1989. Some of his best business was as a face. If it's for a storyline like vs Race in 1983 and Funk in 1989, he could do it... and do it GREAT in angles and storylines.

 

The "belt" thing... I'll keep repeating this: Garvin was getting the belt, and would drop it back to Flair on the same exact day that Ted did. Just in a lesser match with no real emotional payoff (unless it was the fans being thankful that Ron's useless reign was over... which is a BAD THING for the Belt and title).

 

Ted isn't really taking his spot. It's a freaking storyline, and you go in with Ric knowing that he'll turn back when Lex is turned. Which was always a plan: Lex to work with the Horsemen and learn the ropes a bit more, then turn face. This just extends it our another 3-6 months before the turn. Rather than right after Starcade, pushed into sometime in early 1988 when Flair's run at the Top Face (at that point a Face Champ) runs out and needs to go back to being the Top Heel (and at that point the Heel Champ).

 

One of Flair's best runs was as a babyface from 1979-81 for JCP where he drew some great houses feuding with all the top heels. Fans ate him up as a face and he was great in the role since it was his first time in it.

[KrisZ]

Seeing potential in Sting in 1987 feels like hindsight being 20/20. No one saw potential in him until the draw with Flair, which is precisely why the Clash match is so remembered.

Eddie Gilbert did. Pre Clash. But he was probably the only one.

 

So why was Sting getting World Title matches against Flair 10 days after Starcade 1987, which is three months before the Clash? Gilbert didn't book that. Dusty did. These weren't title shots in Albany, GA, either. Charlotte, Houston, Greensboro, Cincinnati, Philadelphia, St. Louis and Chicago. The first NWA Pro of 1988?

 

NWA PRO WRESTLING 1/2/88

Clip - Bunkhouse Battle Royal

Midnight Express w/Jim Cornette vs. MIke Force & Cougar Jay

Interview- Post Match - Midnight Express & Jim Cornette

Kevil Sullivan vs. Rocky King

Dr Death Steve Williams vs. Tommy Angel

Interview- Nikita Koloff

Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs. Gary Royal & J Savage

Interview- Post Match - Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

Road Warriors vs. ????? & ?????

Interview- Dusty Rhodes

The Warlord w/ Teijo Kahn & Paul Jones vs. George South

Interview- Lex Luger - attacked by Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

Ric Flair vs. Sting

Two weeks later, it was Arn & Tully vs Barry & Sting on World Wide. The gate crashing with Sting challenging Flair was a couple of weeks after that. They knew fairly quickly what they had. Again, Dusty is booking all this. He saw something in 1987 and kept upping Sting's push as the year went along.

 

 

JCP @ Charlotte, NC – Coliseum – December 6, 1987

Eddie Gilbert & Terry Taylor d. Denny Brown & John Savage

The Rock n Roll Express d. Chance McQuade & Rikki Nelson

Sting d. Gladiator #2

The Road Warriors d. The Gladiator & Thunderfoot

Larry Zbyszko d. Rocky King

Mighty Wilbur d. Arn Anderson by DQ

Bobby Eaton d. Italian Stallion

NWA World TV Title: Nikita Koloff © d. Thunderfoot #2

Ivan Koloff & The Warlord d. Rocky King & Chance McQuade

Mike Rotundo d. John Savage

Steve Williams d. The Gladiator

Larry Zbyszko d. Italian Stallion

US Tag Titles: The Midnight Express © battled Jimmy Garvin & Michael Hayes to a no contest

The Road Warriors & Paul Ellering d. Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, & JJ Dillon

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

 

JCP @ Lafayette, LA – Cajundome – December 7, 1987

Mike Rotundo d. Kendall Windham

Ron Simmons d. Tiger Conway Jr.

Jimmy Garvin & Michael Hayes fought The Sheepherders to a draw

Ronnie Garvin & Nikita Koloff d. Eddie Gilbert & Terry Taylor

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

26 Man Bunkhouse Stampede won by Nikita Koloff

 

JCP @ Houston, TX – The Summit – December 11, 1987

Mighty Wilbur d. Shaska Whatley

Larry Zbyszko d. Tim Horner

Michael Hayes d. Black Bart

Ron Simmons & Steve Williams d. The Sheepherders

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

Bunkhouse Stampede won by Steve Williams

 

JCP @ Greensboro, NC – Coliseum – December 12, 1987

The Midnight Express & Big Bubba Rogers d. Italian Stallion, Mighty Wilbur, & Kendall Windham

Eddie Gilbert d. George South

Sting d. Thunderfoot #2

The Road Warriors d. Chance McQuade & Larry Stevens

Ronnie Garvin d. Thunderfoot

Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard d. Gary Royal & John Savage

Ricky Morton d. Mike Force

The Warlord d. George South

Steve Williams d. Tommy Savage

The Midnight Express d. Cougar Jay & Mike Force

Kevin Sullivan d. Rocky King

The Super Powers d. Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

Bunkhouse Stampede won by Lex Luger

 

JCP @ Cincinnati, OH – Cincinnati Gardens – December 13, 1987 (1,800)

Steve Williams d. Jim Lancaster

Larry Zbyszko d. Mighty Wilbur by countout

Ivan Koloff d. Mike Rotundo

Bunkhouse Stampede won by Mighty Wilbur

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard fought The Super Powers to a draw

 

JCP @ Philadelphia, PA – Civic Center – December 26, 1987 (6,000)

The Barbarian d. Ricky Santana

The Warlord d. Ronnie Garvin by countout

Bobby Eaton fought Barry Windham to a draw

Dusty Rhodes d. Tully Blanchard by DQ

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

Bunkhouse Stampede won by The Warlord

 

JCP @ St. Louis, MO – Arena – December 28, 1987 (4,000)

Lex Luger d. Keith Steinborn

Larry Zbyszko d. Lee Peak

NWA world TV Title: Nikita Koloff © d. The Menace

Ronnie Garvin d. Arn Anderson by DQ

NWA World Six-Man Tag Titles: Dusty Rhodes & The Road Warriors © d. Ivan Koloff & The Powers of Pain by countout

NWA World Tag Titles: Jimmy Garvin & Michael Hayes d. Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard © by DQ

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting

Bunkhouse Stampede won by Steve Williams

 

JCP @ Chicago, IL – UIC Pavilion – December 30, 1987 (3,500)

Jimmy Garvin d. Eddie Gilbert in 12:10

Ron Simmons d. Johnny Ace in 7:50

Western States Heritage Title: Barry Windham d. Larry Zbyszko by DQ in 10:40

NWA World TV Title: Nikita Koloff © fought Dick Murdoch to a 20:00 draw

NWA World Heavyweight Title: Ric Flair © d. Sting in 19:05

Bunkhouse Stampede won by Road Warrior Animal

[jdw]

It would be interesting to look at the WON from that period to see if the Charlotte card was originally booked as Flair-Sting, or if it was a last minute swap out. If it was booked that way, it means the local stuff had to be out before / around Starcade.

 

Then again, it appears that the did some TV taping there, and I don't know how they promoted those locally.

 

"Come see the stars in a TV taping! Scheduled to appear are..."

 

With no matches announced. Or if they actually announced matches like Sting-Flair.

[JerryvonKramer]

I never said Flair couldn't work face or that fans didn't love him as a face, I said he didn't like to. Refer back to 1990 talk.

 

The reason I don't think Sting would have got over in the same way as Warrior is because of the visuals. Someone else said it recently: part of Vince's greatness as a promoter was providing fans with those postcard moments. Hogan and Warrior nose to nose. You honestly think Sting in that spot would have been *better*?

 

We can talk about Savage as a smaller guy at that time, but he has an advantage over Sting: he was Savage.

 

I just don't think Sting had the goods. Vince's "muscle boner" as you put it for Warrior was one of the key ingredients. What else? The crazy promos, the ability to run to the ring fast to music, facepaint. Sting is on 2 out of 4, and even then I don't think he had the energy of Warrior.

 

Let's say you just push him on his own terms, I still don't buy he would have been more successful -- there's literally nothing in his track record to suggest it. Don't think fans would have bought him as a legit threat to Hogan. The size is a factor. He might have been good for an IC title run, but I don't see him flourishing in a WWF environment.

[jdw]

I never said Flair couldn't work face or that fans didn't love him as a face, I said he didn't like to. Refer back to 1990 talk.

We all know Ric liked to work heel, much more so as he got older and set in his ways. That said: he didn't refuse to work heel. He worked as a Face when he was the head of the freaking Booking Committee. Some of his most memorable matches, runs and business were as a Face. So the fact that he liked being a Heel isn't relevant to your notion that Ric would somehow be cheesed off about dropping the title to Ted that he ended up dropping to Garvin anyway. Which is the point you seem to be side stepping here. :/

 

 

 

The reason I don't think Sting would have got over in the same way as Warrior is because of the visuals. Someone else said it recently: part of Vince's greatness as a promoter was providing fans with those postcard moments. Hogan and Warrior nose to nose. You honestly think Sting in that spot would have been *better*?

Yes.

 

 

We can talk about Savage as a smaller guy at that time, but he has an advantage over Sting: he was Savage.

I could have sworn that I mentioned Savage had other ways of having a good look.

 

 

I just don't think Sting had the goods. Vince's "muscle boner" as you put it for Warrior was one of the key ingredients.

Only in the sense of why Vince pushed Warrior. In turn, it's not like every top face in the company was as juiced out of their mind as Warrior was in that period.

 

 

What else? The crazy promos,

Didn't help Warrior draw.

 

And frankly Sting was better on the mic.

 

 

the ability to run to the ring fast to music,

Which also didn't help Warrior draw.

 

 

facepaint.

Which if we look at the top singles babyfaces of the Vince Era we would find that Warrior was the only one who had that. So it's not a key make/break thing.

 

 

Sting is on 2 out of 4, and even then I don't think he had the energy of Warrior.

Warrior didn't really have "energy" except for running to the ring and running to the back.

 

In contrast... which other top drawing singles babyfaces in Vince's time running the company needed that "energy" entrance of running in?

 

 

Let's say you just push him on his own terms, I still don't buy he would have been more successful -- there's literally nothing in his track record to suggest it.

He got over in a weeker promotion and sustained it for close to a decade. Warrior was pretty much done the moment he won the title from Hogan.

 

Don't think fans would have bought him as a legit threat to Hogan.

This is relevant... how?

 

There was one Hogan-Warrior match in the WWF. The rest of the time, Warrior had to draw on his own. And didn't.

 

 

The size is a factor.

Savage drew more than Warrior.

 

Bret and Shawn drew more than Nash.

 

Size doesn't mean as much as people, including Vince, thought.

 

It's also not like Sting is Rey Jr.

 

 

He might have been good for an IC title run, but I don't see him flourishing in a WWF environment.

He did well in a weaker promotion that was past it's prime when he got the push. Vince was a vastly better promoter, with a strong promotion. Warrior sucked on every level, with the exception of having Vince behind him. Sting didn't really suck for a "power babyface".

 

He would have been better in the WWF than Warrior, and better able to sustain being a top face.

[JerryvonKramer]

Intuition cones first, reasoning follows ...

 

"Did well" on what metric?

 

Let's break Sting's "TV" career down into sections on a national level:

 

1986-87 UWF

 

Sting wasn't a bit star in the promotion. It died while he was moderately moving up. No HOF credit there.

 

1987-95 JCP/WCW

 

The company was losing money hand over fist. Sting's big ratings moment (such as Clash 1) didn't put any money into the company's pockets to keep it from losing money hand over fist.

 

Did it help keep the company alive because it was TV Content that had value to TBS? That's a trickier question. But for Ted and his fondness for the company, it's a question whether the promotion would have been kept alive. I don't think any of us have a clear picture of whether the $6M of losses on the WCW books were off set by more than $6M of add revenue for TBS (more in the sense that TBS and Turner in general had to turn a profit on the deal to off set the WCW losses). Not sure on that one.

 

1995-1996 WCW

 

There was a stretch where Nitro was doing ratings but before the companies (both WCW and Turner/TW) started making money in buckets. We can't just flip the switch at Nitro and say Sting being a TV star meant a massive crapload in terms of a HOF candidacy.

 

1996-1999 WCW

 

WCW gets hot, starts making money, and makes loads for Turner/Time Warner. Sting *is* a part of that.

 

We talked about this in the prior Sting threads on how we split this up, but the reality is that more than 50% of the credit ends up with Hogan and Eric. If Eric doesn't have the stones to pull what he did, and if Hogan doesn't go heel to anchor the whole clusterfuck, the rest of the knuckle heads keep losing shitloads of money. That's in terms of TV every bit as much as house show business and PPV, probably more.

 

Splitting up the rest of the 50% is where it gets even trickier. Some goes to Hall & Nash, because love them or hate them, their jump shaped where WCW, Eric and Hogan went. We talked about Savage and Piper doing huge business with Hogan, and having key TV roles to do so.

 

So it's really tricky to put a huge credit onto Sting. He gets a cut, but not a majority of it, nor close to it.

 

Before folks run in and talk about how big Sting up in the rafters was... I know that. We talked about it in the other thread. But up in the rafters has no impact without what came before it... which was caused by Eric and the Outsiders, then hit out of the park by Eric and Hogan.

 

1999-2001 WCW

 

Promotion went to total shit, lost tons of money, and went out of business. Skip "blame", and just focus on this: Sting gets no credit for being a TV Star of a Titanic of a tv show sinking what had been a wildly successful promotion. Don't get hung up on whether he gets any blame for it... just that the period covered by it is a 0 on the HOF candidacy.

 

2003–2013 TNA

 

The promotion has been a total bomb, losing money left and right, kept alive by money marks. Sting gets a Blutarsky as a TV Star for that period: 0.00. In fact, Sting is probably one of the reasons it's bombed: an obsession with past their prime overpaid "talent" from the 80s and 90s. Mixed in with the obsession of being a vanity promotion for years to put over Jeffey.

 

So we're back exactly where we were in Sting's normal HOF Candidacy:

 

He was a really big star for a certain period of time in say late 1996 through early 1999, where if you zero in on the really important part of it narrows way down into 1997 with a little tail before and after... but not as much as people think after he came out of the rafters for the two matches with Hogan.

 

Sting's probably a bad test for this. A WWE wrestler of the 00's where TV revenue is higher is probably a better one. But then...

 

One would have to prove that he actually was a ratings driver, rather than it just being WWE Product in general that was drawing a large amount of the baseline rating. Tricky. I know Dave has toyed with that stuff for well over a decade, but it never was very satisfying / conclusive to all of us how he analyzed the data. But folks could have at it... he's certainly rolled it out enough.

 

John

[Loss]

Well, Sting absolutely had potential. They say you can't make a living on potential, but he actually did.

[JerryvonKramer]

The other point to make is that jdw is putting a lot of weight on how Warrior drew as champ vs. how much money he made in the build. He probably sold more in action figures than Sting sold in tickets.

 

Warrior didn't draw well as champ, but some of that is surely because he didn't have any credible opponents -- when you've beaten Hogan, what's Rick Rude or DiBiase or Perfect? I think it's probably a weakness of the booking that Vince was booking to the Wrestlemania moment with no real plan seemingly beyond that.

 

I don't really see how there are grounds for assuming that Sting would have done any better given that he pretty much bombed as WCW company ace -- and I'd warrant the drop-off was steeper than the drop during Warrior's run.

 

We're arguing about a hypothetical here, so we'll never know one way or the other. My instincts say Sting doesn't make it beyond IC level in WWF, yours that he would have done better than Warrior. There's no real way of proving it one way or the other. We should avoid getting any further into pedantic point scoring.

[JerryvonKramer]

Sidepoint: coming back to the thread title, Flair always says the Horsemen would have been huge with Vince behind them.

[evilclown]

I don't really see that. Who would the Horsemen have worked with? Which heels were really "huge" in that era? They'd have been reduced to the midcard in a matter of months.

[Slasher]

I think Flair means more about the WWF marketing machine, and I agree with that. That department was the best thing about the WWF for years, and miles ahead of JCP at that point.

[Loss]

The biggest area where JCP (and even post-JCP WCW, for that matter) fell short was in not marketing their video library like the WWF did even then. I realize that retrospective DVD sets are a fairly new thing within the past decade, but the WWF did over a half-dozen two-hour Hulk Hogan videos, a 20-volume Best of the WWF set, etc. There's no reason the NWA couldn't have done similar videos for their top stars and also for their match concepts (War Games on tour, best of Flair/Dusty/Nikita/Magnum/Horsemen, best cage & I Quit matches, etc.) They also should have filmed dark matches and occasionally took a camera on the road with them. Turner Home Entertainment was a bigger outfit than Coliseum Video, so I'm not sure what the issue was. Shortening all of their PPVs to two hours also hurt them in the rental market. So yes, Vince probably would have done a better job promoting Flair in that way, but the Horsemen were not really going to be a good fit in Vince McMahon's WWF.

[Bix]

They did shoot dark matches, look at the stuff that showed up on the Horsemen DVD.

 

To be fair to JCP/WCW/THE, it was several years before Coliseum started using longer tapes for WWF PPVs. The Coliseum versions of the first two Survivor Series PPVs, especially, were heavily edited to fit two hours. I think Survivor Series '88 also had the matches out of order.

[Slasher]

Wasn't really talking about the home videos either.

[Dylan Waco]

If you frame it as a choice between Doc and Ted as jdw does, obviously you take Ted. But so far as I know there is less than no evidence to support the theory that that is what occurred. If I'm wrong point me to it, but as far as I know the reality is that Ted went with Vince and was probably going to take Vince over any offer Crockett could have made.

What happened is what happened. So why don't we delete all the fantasy booking since it isn't what happened. It's circular and gets us nowhere.

 

Ted was in the UWF when it was sold. He was in it while the sale was being negotiated. Even after the sale, he stuck around before heading to Vince as the heel turn comment was posted above (and there even was Ted on commentary of Doc's arm getting "broken"). My comment was/is on getting to Ted before he even thinks about talked to Vince. I mean... if Vince had a massive boner for him, he could have signed him at the same time he was chasing Duggan. He didn't.

 

What you're arguing about... I never said. Nor implied. Thought my breaking down of talent into buckets was explicitly clear.

 

 

Three quick things.

 

1. You and I (and others) have really hit other people hard in fantasy/theoretical booking scenarios before over the viability of options. My issue here isn't "all fantasy booking is stupid," but "if we hold others to that standard we should hold ourselves to the same standard."

 

2. This ties to point 1, but I don't think there is a whole lot of reason to buy the argument that Ted was ever terribly likely to end up in Crockett long term. I see your argument - when negotiating with Watts hammer home the point that you want Ted - but I think even within the realms of fantasy booking it is a stretch to believe that Ted was going to go there if Vince made any sort offer. Had Vince made an offer? We don't know. But I think it is pretty likely that DiBiase would have explored that option on his own before inking with Crockett even in the scenario you are proposing. And if we buy the argument that Hulk was always going to go to NY no matter what Verne did (and I know we both do), I think you can make a case that Ted was too (we may differ here which is fine - but it makes our premises fundamentally different so I don't know where to go from there).

 

3. On your breaking down of talent, I understand that you were "tiering" them off. My point - which I think was transparently obvious - was that in 1986/87 if you were looking at potential and/or value to the company I think it stretches the bounds of belief to argue that Sting was a more logical pick than Williams or Gang. "But Sting was lower costs" is the counter and I get that too (though I do wonder how much cheaper he was), but I would argue that I don't know of any evidence to support the argument that Sting was seen as a guy with solid potential (I'm not well versed in the WON's from the time, so if I'm wrong steer me to it), or that Gang/Williams were seen as guys that wouldn't have some value at the time. I could see saying "I don't want any of them," or even saying "I'll take Sting and some of these other middling guys for slot filling positions," but I don't really see the non-hindsight case where the end result is "Sting is a solid prospect we can get for cheap/Williams and Gang? Fuck Em."

[jdw]

Intuition cones first, reasoning follows ...

 

"Did well" on what metric?

So what does Sting's "TV" have to do with a comp with Warrior. Did you even read the post, or did you just get a woody over something where I critically looked at an aspect of Sting's career and just run to pop it in here?

 

And before you run off and find more things I've written pointing out Sting's short comings as a HOF Candidate, it's probably worthwhile to ponder:

 

A. While I don't vote for Sting as a HOFer, I do think he's a legit candidate to consider and talk about

 

B. Warrior isn't a legit HOF candidate. He's a fucking joke in that context, despite having the greatest promotion in US history up to that point behind him at the time

 

So... yeah, have at it in dragging my stuff over here. It will be fun to see if you grasp any of it better than this one.