Wrestler's You've Flip Flopped On

[Dylan Waco]

I used to like Koshinaka and Takada a good bit. Now I really don't care for either at all unless they are in tags. I hate their matches together. I haven't watched 90's Kosh in years to be fair but as a junior I thought he was dogshit most of the time on the 80's set which is not at all how I felt the first time I saw him. Takada is someone who I really dislike immensely at this point outside of a few moments in certain matches.

 

I've soured some on Chris Candido. He used to be one of my very favorites and I used to tout him as one of the most unheralded wrestlers of all time. I still think he had a great bag of tools but going back and watching ECW I was shocked at how rarely he got the most out of them. His SMW stuff holds up very favorably, but he's no longer one of my favorite guys despite his charm (though I still count myself a fan).

 

I used to fucking hate Larry Zbyszko. He still has points in watching older footage where his stalling becomes more of an annoyance than a plus to the match, but over all his stock has really risen with me. Really love his Regal feud in 94, his run in the DA was great in 92, and his AWA stuff - while a bit of a mixed bag - has far more positives than negatives.

 

I used to think the High Flyers were a joke. They weren't. They were a very good team, that had they wrestled in any other territory would probably be regarded as one of the top five teams of the 80's if factor in all categories. Greg in particular is much better than I had remembered.

 

Ron Garvin and Greg Valentine are both guys I used to think were boring when I was a kid and sort of avoided up until recent years as a "smart" fan. Turns out they were both awesome wrestlers and not just against each other.

 

Backlund and Kerry Von Erich are two people that I still don't enjoy as much as others, but I hated both for years. Thought Backlund was bad and Kerry was just a piece of luggage. Don't buy either of those arguments at all any more. Backlund was pretty clearly a good worker, as was Kerry

 

Oh yeah, I also used to believe the like that Michael Hayes couldn't work.

[Strummer]

It all comes down to this. Guys sold Andre's every touch as death. When he was a heel and the face was on offense, it lasted just until Andre TOUCHED them, and it was totally, utterly believable. He was a force of nature and it's because they constantly reinforced it.

 

I don't think basic execution is even necessary. It's all symbolic. It's wrestling. All that is necessary is that the guys in the ring and/or you and/or the crowd buys what happens in the match. Obviously you don't, but it seems like we do, and the crowd definitely did.

 

my favorite "old" Andre moment is on the first SNME of 1988 (taped in Dec. 87) when he's choking out Hogan post match. The way he gets rid of the Bulldogs like gnats and his look when he no sells Duggan's 2 X 4 shot make him look the coolest badass MF'er of all time

[Johnny Sorrow]

When I was 14-15, I hated the Andersons. I thought they were boring. I liked Arn's TV title matches but I always rooted for the face. I loved Arn's promos, but when it was Ole and Arn in a match? I automatically got bored. For instance, I was ringside at Starrcade 86 in Greensboro for the Andersons/ Rock and Roll Express match and was bummed that Atlanta got Flair/ Nikita.

 

Years later after re-watching it I realized that I was there for an awesome match that blew away both Main Events in Atlanta. And that the Anderson's were fucking awesome.

 

Edit: Holy shit, I forgot my biggest flip. I used to absolutely hate the Undertaker. I hated all the goofy shit, I hated Paul Bearer, I hated the Zombie shit, I hated everything about him. To me he was THE poster boy for stupid early 90's WWF shit.

 

Now? I love Taker.

[El-P]

Check. And on the "playing one's role effectively" front, there was the period where he was billed as the best technical wrestler in the WWF while his matches were 75% punches and chops.

Chris Benoit in the WWE was a sad parody of what he'd been in the 90's though. I had cooled down on his work as early as 2001-2002 (blame NJ), although I still thinks he was a great wrestler at points.

[El-P]

Man, I just don't get the love for old Andre at all, and I'm totally about the story of matches over the action. But wrestlers have to be able to at least execute a few basic moves to be credible (not as tough guys, but as athletes), and Andre could barely move. He wasn't fun to watch during those years at all to me. I thought it was embarrassing and he looked really frail.

Agreed. It is just sad to watch him at this point, it's obvious the guy is in pain. Sure, he still had the psychology, so he could get away with doing simple stuff that were getting over, but really, it's no fun to watch. From all acounts, Andre was miserable the few last years of his life. Past 88-89, Andre makes me sad.

[rainmakerrtv]

I used to think the High Flyers were a joke. They weren't. They were a very good team, that had they wrestled in any other territory would probably be regarded as one of the top five teams of the 80's if factor in all categories. Greg in particular is much better than I had remembered.

Can we get some sort of definitive word on Greg Gagne? I confess I haven't seen any High Flyers, but I did initially catch his last run in the AWA when it happened and couldn't quite get the criticism. I didn't think he was as horrible as he was made out to be, I thought he was a solid worker but rather vanilla, still not out and out bad. Then later I watched his Hennig matches on goodhelmet's comp, and goddamn if he didn't come off as one of the most awkward guys I've ever seen in the ring. I don't automatically hate ungainly looking wrestlers (I'm still a big Akira Taue fan), but Greg seemed to be working in higher gravity than everyone else. So was this guy any good or not?

[Victator]

Looking at his stuff in the late 80's and he was pretty good. I saw him in a tag from the late 70s and he was really good. I think he gets shit for being Verne's son. Jim Ross said it right. He should have went to another territory and changed his name.

[goc]

Looking at his stuff in the late 80's and he was pretty good. I saw him in a tag from the late 70s and he was really good. I think he gets shit for being Verne's son. Jim Ross said it right. He should have went to another territory and changed his name.

I think he likely would have done even worse had he done that. I think he was just too small for anyone but his Dad to push.

[Victator]

Ross thinks he would of gotten a good mid card spot on talent alone.

[jdw]

Man, I just don't get the love for old Andre at all, and I'm totally about the story of matches over the action. But wrestlers have to be able to at least execute a few basic moves to be credible (not as tough guys, but as athletes), and Andre could barely move. He wasn't fun to watch during those years at all to me. I thought it was embarrassing and he looked really frail. Not everyone needs to be incredibly athletic, but being able to execute a few wrestling moves should be a minimum requirement. Sure, the matches were psychologically sound, but they oughta be when a guy has been around that long, and the premise of wrestling is that it's an athletic contest. As strange as it is to say, Andre just didn't have any credibility with me in his later years because he didn't seem like an athlete at all.

 

Agreed. It is just sad to watch him at this point, it's obvious the guy is in pain. Sure, he still had the psychology, so he could get away with doing simple stuff that were getting over, but really, it's no fun to watch. From all acounts, Andre was miserable the few last years of his life. Past 88-89, Andre makes me sad.

Yeah... that.

 

There's a fine line between Buying The Legend Bullshit and Finding The Legend To Be Bullshit.

 

Flair in that match from last night that folks are talking about... that just exposed Ric as an old man huffing and puffing in the ring that you worry is going to keel over, not from anything Sting has done to him, but because he's an Old Fucking Man. Ric in the ring in that match is just bullshit, and there's nothing really to buy.

 

Baba in the 11/30/93 tag match, and in *some* of the tags/six-mans heading into the next year, are Buying The Legend Bullshit. The fact that he's old, the opponents are selling their asses off to make him look good (as opposed to their normal selling), and that Baba really isn't up to their snuff... that does peak out here and there. And if one just can't buy into the Baba Bullshit, I certainly can understand that. He's not Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Hansen or Doc in there, and if that's the level you want in your 1993-94 AJPW matches, then Baba isn't at that level.

 

And there are plenty of matches where I'm in Finding The Legend To Be Bullshit mode with Baba. I don't care at all for the Baba & Andre tag matches, and not just because I find Andre circa 1990 & 1991 to be unwatchable.

 

Andre... I'm not that much of a fan of "peak" Andre because he just never has been my cup of tea. But declining Andre when it's painful to watch him even move around in the ring? There's something incredibly sad about it. Perhaps not as pathetic as Flair last night. But you rarely get the sense that Andre is really enjoying himself out there. It's feels like a grind on him, which makes it a grind to watch. That's a difference between he and Baba, because you really get the sense in Nov 1993 - April 1994 that Baba is enjoying himself in there with his "boys".

 

John

[Dooley]

Here's a good example of Andre having fun in '89.

 

Duggan/Warrior vs Rude/Andre

[jdw]

He has some fun in it (I enjoy the rope shake at Warrior), but it's painful to watch him walk, hang onto the ropes for his balance.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Looking at his stuff in the late 80's and he was pretty good. I saw him in a tag from the late 70s and he was really good. I think he gets shit for being Verne's son. Jim Ross said it right. He should have went to another territory and changed his name.

I think he likely would have done even worse had he done that. I think he was just too small for anyone but his Dad to push.

 

He likely would have done worse for the simple fact that the High Flyers were one of the most over, best drawing and best working tag teams of the 70s/80's and it's highly unlikely that degree of success would have been replicated elsewhere no matter what his degree of talent.

[Mad Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWeNedSoyuU

 

This is the Duggan match I was talking about. It's not a classic or anything but I think it's a good example of Andre having his good days late in his career.

[Matt D]

I'm sticking to my guns on Andre. I see what you guys are saying, but i am AMAZED how he could do so much with so little athleticism left. I've hit a point where I almost see athleticism as a crutch, or an easy out. I get how that's backwards, but I'm so into working smart the last year or so that I almost see working hard as a drawback. It's just a personal phase I'm going through or something.

 

And really, this note is about flip flopping and I used to hate late era Andre because "he couldn't do anything" or the lack of action or whatever. So my flop has been flipped.

[S.L.L.]

I've hit a point where I almost see athleticism as a crutch, or an easy out. I get how that's backwards, but I'm so into working smart the last year or so that I almost see working hard as a drawback.

See Benjamin, Shelton...Kingston, Kofi...Gate's entire roster other than Akira Tozawa, Dragon....yeah, I can't argue with that. I can't say I've gone out of my way to watch a lot of late-period Andre recently, but a lot of what I have watched has been enjoyable.

 

And not that you're saying otherwise, but it should be noted that working hard AND working smart at the same time (Mysterio, Rey...lance, Free...s, Viru) is totally awesome.

 

As far as guys I've flip-flopped on go, working on the Texas set really forced me to rethink some guys who's bad late-careers really hurt their rep. Hayes is the obvious one, but fellow WCW Freebird Jimmy Garvin really opened my eyes as well. I also started to gain an appreciation for The Great Kabuki, too. On the flip side, I used to think David was the best Von Erich. Boy, did I change my mind on that.

 

Johnny Saint is kind of a weird guy, in that I started out really liking him, then I kinda started to feel like - in the words of Dean Rasmussen - he was the RVD of the 70's, but now I really like him again. Go figure.

 

I used to think Adrian Street was off the chain great. There's still a lot of stuff I really like about him, but the more I watch, the more I realize he didn't bring as much to the table as I once thought.

 

I don't dispute that Antonio Inoki was...problematic, but there's a lot more stuff I like from him than I used to give him credit for.

 

I used to think The Rockers - while not actually bad - were the most overrated team in W/WWF/E history. Now I kinda wish they had never broken up, especially after seeing more of their pre-WWF run.

 

Believe it or not, I used to really like those Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid matches. In hindsight, I have no clue how that happened. I liked George Takano's run as Cobra a bunch, too, for that matter. I still love George Takano, but Cobra? *shudders*

 

I used to think that Brad Armstrong deserved a better career than he got. Nowadays, I think the career he got was just right.

 

Why did I ever like Jerry Lynn again? Oh yeah, because of Sean Waltman. Duh.

 

Keiji Mutoh used to be my personal favorite Japanese wrestler ever. Nowadays, not so much.

 

After growing up with The Beverly Brothers, I can't say I ever thought much of them, but revisiting Mike Enos' career a bit, he was pretty awesome. Haven't revisited Wayne Bloom's career yet, so the jury's still out on him.

 

After seeing how bad their singles runs were, I had forgotten how much I liked The Smoking Gunns as a team.

 

Given my current tastes in wrestling, I have no idea how I overlooked the Samoan Swat Team/Headshrinkers the way I once did.

 

I'm still waiting for that great Bad News Allen match that never comes. It's to the point that I kinda feel like he's the rich man's Wade Barrett - great on the mic, but boy, can he ever not translate the energy and charisma he gets there to his matches.

 

I used to think Taue was way further behind his fellow Pillars than he actually was.

 

Raven is a guy whose career I still have very mixed feelings about. I can say, however, that Johnny Polo does not hold up for me at all.

 

Mr. Kennedy/Anderson, Frankie Kazarian, and Rhino - probably along with others not coming to mind - were weird cases of guys who I started out hating, grew to like, and then ended up hating again.

 

I'm still not entirely sure if The Nasty Boys were ever "good" in a meaningful sense, but they were a hell of a lot more entertaining in the ring then I gave them credit for.

 

As much of a clown as he was, I've really grown to love Percy Pringle/Paul Bearer. Probably for the exact same reasons I used to look down on him, too. It probably helps that The Undertaker was my second favorite wrestler, so he has always gotten nostalgia points from me. Contrast with Gorilla Monsoon

 

My first favorite wrestler was The Ultimate Warrior. That is all.

 

A lot of guys mentioned here already I've changed my mind on, with Choshu, Andre in general, Brody, Demolition, Hogan, Dusty, Baba, post-'94 Kobashi (I might bump that up to '96 or '97, but still...), Toyota, Takada (though not to the extent of some other guys who turned on him), and Kerry being the most prominent examples.

 

I'm sure there's plenty of others.

 

There's also been a weird phenomenon since I've become an internet wrestling hot shot where guys like Phil or Tom or whoever will rag on a guy, and I'll think they're pushing it at first, but over time, that wrestler will sort of grow into his reputation, and I'll turn against him then. I don't always know how much is actually them getting worse and how much is me starting to see the flaws they talk about more prominently. Probably a mixture of both. But it happens. Off the top of my head, post-comeback Shawn Michaels, post-'02 Kurt Angle, Davey Richards, Naomichi Marufuji, Roderick Strong, Kofi Kingston, post-MNM/pre-Sheamus ladder match John Morrison, and Mistico were major victims of this.

 

And lastly,

 

I've heard tell of him having a match against World Champion Randy Savage in Los Angeles that was dubbed a classic "work smarter, not harder" match. Does anyone have a date and can they vouch for this? I'd like to give it a look, it sounds interesting.

Here's the match in question:

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9nbql_an...dy-savage_sport

 

And the review I did for it on my All-Request feature at Segunda Caida:

 

"I have a lot of Savage matches left over from when the All-Savage Friday Night requests. I can't complain too much about the lack of variety, though, Savage fucking ruled. Andre also fucking ruled, and while this is older, broken down Andre, he was a guy who would often find ways to take what little he had left and make the most of it. He wasn't getting anything the level of his Hansen or Killer Khan matches anymore, but Andre can put a smile on my face more often than not. This is one of the better examples of that, and when you're in the ring with Savage, that's to be expected. Andre in this match is all about trying to keep Savage trapped, trying to negate the speed advantage, choking him out with his hands and the strap of his tunic. His way is not very sportsmanlike. Savage rallies, and bless Andre's heart, he can still fall backwards and get his arms trapped in the ropes. Savage goes to work, but just as soon as the giant gets free, he backs Savage into a corner and starts wailing away. He may not be as offensively dynamic as he used to, and he may be struggling a bit to stay upright, but if nothing else, Andre is still a huge motherfucker, and he still looks like a legit threat when he's pounding on some dude in the corner. When Savage finally fells him, it feels like a real accomplishment, but even after the elbowdrop, Andre still powers out at two. They brawl outside, where Savage continues to press the advantage, but when he gets back in, Elizabeth gets on the apron, and Andre grabs her ankle, causing her to collapse in pain. Savage goes back out to deal with it, causing a double count-out, which is weird since Savage had pretty clearly broken the count moments earlier. Whatever. I still had a lot of fun with this, dopey finish aside. The post-match makes up for it a little, as Savage carries a seemingly injured Liz in his arms backstage while Andre parades around the ring triumphantly with the WWF Title."

[Kostka]

Ultimo Dragon used to be my favorite wrestler, because I was introduced to Japanese wrestling first through 90's New Japan Juniors. Needlessly to say, I'm not a fan anymore.

[ohtani's jacket]

For me it's workers like Perro Aguayo and Los Hermanos Dinamita, though with the latter I think their 90s work and beyond was better than their prime 80s stuff. My appreciation for big theatrical workers does not extend to Konan, however.

 

I think Tony St. Clair despite not being a great worker was an awesome foil for the best heel workers of his era, and I'd rather watch him over a multitude of British heavyweights.

[Victator]

The thing about that Savage/Andre match is its the only good one they had. For whatever reason Andre hated Savage and refused to sell for him or especially be pinned by him. A year later he's jobbing to Warrior in under a minute, so I think the story has merit.

 

I'm still waiting for that great Bad News Allen match that never comes. It's to the point that I kinda feel like he's the rich man's Wade Barrett - great on the mic, but boy, can he ever not translate the energy and charisma he gets there to his matches.

First Savage match in MSG is great.

[S.L.L.]

I'm still waiting for that great Bad News Allen match that never comes. It's to the point that I kinda feel like he's the rich man's Wade Barrett - great on the mic, but boy, can he ever not translate the energy and charisma he gets there to his matches.

First Savage match in MSG is great.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. That was actually pretty neat.

[Cox]

The thing about that Savage/Andre match is its the only good one they had. For whatever reason Andre hated Savage and refused to sell for him or especially be pinned by him. A year later he's jobbing to Warrior in under a minute, so I think the story has merit.

The difference is, Andre in late '89 is clearly at the very end of the road and Warrior is clearly getting the next big babyface push. Maybe he put him over so clean knowing he was done? Plus, by late '89, he may have only been able to do one minute jobs due to his physical condition, which had declined greatly even compared to 1988.

[Dooley]

The thing about that Savage/Andre match is its the only good one they had. For whatever reason Andre hated Savage and refused to sell for him or especially be pinned by him. A year later he's jobbing to Warrior in under a minute, so I think the story has merit.

Could be, or it could be Andre realized he was done and just said fuck it. After all Andre hated Warrior and apparently insisted on the matches going that short.

[JerryvonKramer]

Is this the Andre vs. Warrior match in question? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cONoP4jKQ8c

 

That's hardly a clean job.

 

And there seems to be a rematch from September 30th 1989 which goes longer than 10 minutes:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Wzf_KEUkU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ajKcC1zZc

 

DQ finish.

 

Now another match, this time SNME from October, this time more like 7 or 8 minutes:

 

DQ finish.

 

Did the squash matches only happen on house shows?

[Franchise]

Backlund - Totally hated him as a kid but now I can appreciate his work.

 

ECW - Loved it when I first stumbled upon it one late night in 95. I still really enjoy the TV shows but I can't sit thru a commercial release or PPV. Everything feels so drug out & messy I just can't stand it. The quick hitting nature of there TV show is perfect for my tolerance of the products limitations.

[Dooley]

Is this the Andre vs. Warrior match in question? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cONoP4jKQ8c

 

That's hardly a clean job.

 

And there seems to be a rematch from September 30th 1989 which goes longer than 10 minutes:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Wzf_KEUkU

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ajKcC1zZc

 

DQ finish.

 

Now another match, this time SNME from October, this time more like 7 or 8 minutes:

 

DQ finish.

 

Did the squash matches only happen on house shows?

From Cawthon's site:

 

WWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - September 9, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant in 18 seconds

 

WWF @ Grand Rapids, MI - Stadium Arena - September 18, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 30-second mark

 

WWF @ Utica, NY - Memorial Auditorium - September 19, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 21-second mark

 

WWF @ Denver, CO - McNichols Arena - September 22, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at around the 30 second mark

 

WWF @ Richfield, OH - Coliseum - September 29, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant with the splash after a matter of seconds

 

WWF @ Toledo, OH - Sports Arena - October 3, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 25-second mark

 

WWF @ Springfield, IL - Prairie Capital Convention Center - October 11, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 19-second mark

 

WWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - October 14, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 17-second mark

 

WWF @ Winnipeg, Manitoba - Arena - October 21, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 20-second mark

 

WWF @ Edmonton, Alberta - Northlands Coliseum - October 22, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 12-second mark

 

WWF @ Altoona, PA - Jaffa Mosque - November 2, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 20-second mark

 

WWF @ Erie, PA - Civic Center - November 3, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 20-second mark

 

WWF @ St. Louis, MO - Arena - November 24, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 30-second mark

 

WWF @ Daytona Beach, FL - November 27, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant at the 20-second mark

 

WWF @ Cape Girardeau, MO - Show Me Center - December 11, 1989

WWF IC Champion the Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre the Giant in 20 seconds

 

I only included the matches that had the times, but suffice to say it went around the horn. There were DQ's mixed in as well, most notably the ones you posted and the first Toronto match, which led to a cage rematch.