Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

[Coffey]

Well, he was also Isaac Yankem DDS & fake Diesel, neither of which can be ignored when we're looking at his 90's work. And both of those runs were absolutely abysmal. Even when he first showed up as Kane, he was still pretty bad. Go back and look at his early Tombstones, to Taker or Vader, and try not to cringe!

[El-P]

I don't like Lance very much, but I'd have a hard time finding anything remotely good about Kane. A pretty bad wrestler if you ask me. And the worst flying clothesline ever.

 

Lance was a great athlete, but a passable wrestler. It struck me when I realized that pretty much everyone in ECW had their most disapointing matches with Lance. Only Candido could make him look really good. Justin Credible was carrying their team like it's not funny. Maybe Lance was a bit better in WCW, but I won't put myself through this era ever again.

 

Saturn ? The Eliminators were a joke of a team, and his WCW run was nice because he worked with guys who knew how to work. Raven made him look like a star. I like Saturn, but he's not even close to guys I wouldn't consider top 10 material.

 

Jericho may have learned WWF psychology with Pat, but that doesn't mean he wasn't any good before. Before his heel turn he was a spotfest artist, but a good one at that. After the heel turn he delivered quite a bit, and even made me care about Malenko.

 

Douglas I made my case before, he's in my top 10.

[Mad Dog]

You can say the same thing about Lance Storm though. Go back to Barely Legal and see how terrible he was. He might have used the worst chair shot ever on that show.

 

You can't hold fake Diesel against Kane though. He had a shitty gimmick and he was supposed to wrestle like someone else.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'll lend my voice to the Arn case. He was phenomenal 95-6. And like people have said, pretty much amazing during the Dangerous Alliance angle of 92. What was he doing 93-4 though? I recall several disappointing matches from him during that period (e.g Windham).

 

I don't think he'd be above Flair in the general running.

[jdw]

Eddy was born in the US. Bret and Benoit are Canadians. Obviously Eddy is the answer.

 

John

Not really the spirit of the question/discussion.

 

Volk Han and Stan Hansen aren't Japanese, but if I were rating the Best Japanese workers from the 90's, I would include both in the discussion.

 

The title is best U.S. worker of the '90s, not AMERICAN worker of the '90's. I see no reason why Bret or Benoit shouldn't be considered, they both worked extensively in the U.S.

 

If it's "American", than we'd have to bring in all the Luchadores since they're all Americans: the folks who live in North, Central and South America.

 

Regardless of how one slices it, Eddy was an US worker by both definitions who worked enough in the US for us to drag is body of work into the debate, and he pretty much kicks the living shit out of the rest of the people in the discussion... unless we want to drag in the luchadores, where Dandy and Casas and Santito will get their supporters.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I'll lend my voice to the Arn case. He was phenomenal 95-6. And like people have said, pretty much amazing during the Dangerous Alliance angle of 92. What was he doing 93-4 though? I recall several disappointing matches from him during that period (e.g Windham).

 

I don't think he'd be above Flair in the general running.

Flair has down periods and was clearly on the downslide for virtually the entire decade.

 

You cannot say that for Arn.

[Coffey]

You can't hold fake Diesel against Kane though. He had a shitty gimmick and he was supposed to wrestle like someone else.

Why not? It was still him. There have been good workers that excelled in shitty gimmicks before. Hell, Kane is a pretty shitty gimmick when you think about it. It sucks that he was pigeon-holed but it's more about the body of work than the moves anyway and I just find him...below average. Regardless of if he's doing a Big Boot/Jackknife Powerbomb or a Chokeslam/Tombstone. Ya know?

 

This has been derailed kind of anyway, as I don't think anyone would argue trying to put Kane on the list (since this spawned from him being above Lance Storm). But I would agree that Storm shouldn't be there either. So it's all good.

[Mad Dog]

But it was beyond a shitty gimmick. He had to wrestle like someone who wasn't him. That's hard to do as you're essentially having to crawl out of your own skin and be someone else. This would be like putting a blond wig on Bret Hart and telling him to go wrestle Hulk Hogan matches every week on television.

[jdw]

I'll lend my voice to the Arn case. He was phenomenal 95-6. And like people have said, pretty much amazing during the Dangerous Alliance angle of 92. What was he doing 93-4 though? I recall several disappointing matches from him during that period (e.g Windham).

 

I don't think he'd be above Flair in the general running.

Flair has down periods and was clearly on the downslide for virtually the entire decade.

 

You cannot say that for Arn.

 

Arn's TV title reign was, at the time, less thrilling than one would have hoped for going in. Perhaps that ages well, though I wonder if it ages "solid" like a decent amount of underappreciated stuff does (say like decent Tito Santana matches) or ages Great! like say Rude vs Warrior at SummerSlam does where you're left thinking this is a shitload better than it was given credit at the time for being. It was a year and a half with the belt, and I just don't remember anything sticking out as terribly awesome. Was there anything like say the Garvin vs Blanchard syndiction match in 1986 that lept out in the past half decade as something folks went batshit for?

 

Up above had the "what was he doing in 93-94", which is another two years. 1996 had some time out for the surgery, and I'm trying to remember how much of his stuff was GREAT~! that year, or just typical solid Arn stuff.

 

That's kind of Arn: a really solid worker. A king of grinding out good and entertaining matches. But there aren't a ton of times even in his excellent matches where he stands out as say Tully did in the Garvin match above, or Tully opposite Steamber at Starcade '84 (which is a pretty fucking great match that probably would end up in the Top 10 of the WWF 80's if it happened in the WWF).

 

I like Arn a lot. But if we're pimping him that high up as a worker, you might as well drag his name over into the WON HOF thread and start pimping him there.

 

John

[FLIK]

But it was beyond a shitty gimmick. He had to wrestle like someone who wasn't him. That's hard to do as you're essentially having to crawl out of your own skin and be someone else. This would be like putting a blond wig on Bret Hart and telling him to go wrestle Hulk Hogan matches every week on television.

True

That said, Glen Jacobs had allready kinda stunk for a while before then anyways. I recall like 1 good Isac Yankem match vs Bret in the cage on RAW and that's about it. Don't see a ton of praise getting thrown around for his SMW run, outside of the novelty factor I didn't much dig him vs Ikeda in that 1 PWFG match.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, with Arn vs. Flair you can talk about down periods, but then you can also talk about greatness.

 

Arguably Arn's best match of the 90s was against Flair. Is that match even in Flair's top 5 for the decade?

 

I know a bunch of you (jdw, for example ) will now come out and tell me that match isn't even very good, but I'd like to see the argument that doesn't put it top 5 for Arn's 90s matches.

 

Does Arn have anything to match Wrestlemania 8 vs. Savage or Rumble 92? What about the Fujinami match from 91? (the one that happened in Japan). What about the Vader match from 93?

 

Is consistently solid better than someone who hits those heights but then has some downtime?

 

Also, I think Flair never stopped being a great promo if you expand "worker" to encompass the total package. Arn was a great promo too, but I'm positive Top 10 Flair 90s promos would have the edge on Top 10 Arn 90s promos -- although he has some GREAT ones, especially during the Dangerous Alliance run.

 

I'm going to put my order in for the 92, 93 and 96 yearbooks soon. I got a bunch of birthday money I don't know what to do with, so why not? I'd be interested to see Loss's opinion on this given that he's seen them all.

[Victator]

Don't see how the basic Kane gimmick is bad. Huge monster wearing a cool mask that is indestructible. The storylines around it were stupid. But the basic gimmick is Lord Humongus.

[jdw]

If 1992 Arn was the best year (along with Steamboat) of a US worker in the 1990's, does this not strike people as a little odd looking at Loss' Top 100 of 1992:

 

#6 - Sting & Steamboat & Windham & Rhodes & Koloff vs Rude & Austin & Anderson & Eaton & Zbyszko (WCW Wrestle War 05/17/92)

 

#53 - Sting & Rhodes & Windham & Steamboat vs Rude & Anderson & Zbyszko & Eaton (WCW Saturday Night 02/22/92)

 

#59 - Arn Anderson vs Dustin Rhodes (WCW Saturday Night 01/04/92)

 

That's it for Arn matches from 1992. It's not as if Loss doesn't like Arn, and doesn't like WCW. Plenty of positive things said by him about WCW's 1992 stuff in his reviews.

 

Then looking at the two highest there, you've got Wargames with 10 people (admittedly Arn was very good, but not exactly make/break since there were 10 other people involved in the greatness of the match), and another 8 man tag with some pretty decent folks in it.

 

There are other Arn matches that made the year book that didn't make his Top 100, and I recall that they generally got positive comments. But 3 out of 100...

 

7 - Barry

7 - Dustin

7 - Steamboat

6 - Rude

4 - Austin

3 - Arn

 

Don't know... kind of odd.

 

John

[Frankensteiner]

I'm not here to romanticize Arn's 1992, but it's kind of silly to refute one person's opinion with another person's opinion. Plenty of stuff in that 1992 list that I think is underrated and overrated.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll lend my voice to the Arn case. He was phenomenal 95-6. And like people have said, pretty much amazing during the Dangerous Alliance angle of 92. What was he doing 93-4 though? I recall several disappointing matches from him during that period (e.g Windham).

 

I don't think he'd be above Flair in the general running.

Flair has down periods and was clearly on the downslide for virtually the entire decade.

 

You cannot say that for Arn.

 

Arn's TV title reign was, at the time, less thrilling than one would have hoped for going in. Perhaps that ages well, though I wonder if it ages "solid" like a decent amount of underappreciated stuff does (say like decent Tito Santana matches) or ages Great! like say Rude vs Warrior at SummerSlam does where you're left thinking this is a shitload better than it was given credit at the time for being. It was a year and a half with the belt, and I just don't remember anything sticking out as terribly awesome. Was there anything like say the Garvin vs Blanchard syndiction match in 1986 that lept out in the past half decade as something folks went batshit for?

 

Up above had the "what was he doing in 93-94", which is another two years. 1996 had some time out for the surgery, and I'm trying to remember how much of his stuff was GREAT~! that year, or just typical solid Arn stuff.

 

That's kind of Arn: a really solid worker. A king of grinding out good and entertaining matches. But there aren't a ton of times even in his excellent matches where he stands out as say Tully did in the Garvin match above, or Tully opposite Steamber at Starcade '84 (which is a pretty fucking great match that probably would end up in the Top 10 of the WWF 80's if it happened in the WWF).

 

I like Arn a lot. But if we're pimping him that high up as a worker, you might as well drag his name over into the WON HOF thread and start pimping him there.

 

John

 

"that high up as a worker?" I'm saying he was an extremely, solid and consistent worker from 90-95. Really you could extend that back from 85-95.

 

On the tv title run I remember liking a lot of it in the "this is a quality tv match" sense. There are no Blanchard v. Garvin's but that is not surprising. Having watched the NJPW and AJPW Sets recently there are VERY few matches from either I would put decisively above that match - and those are sets I love with tons of matches I have zero problem calling "great." 93 I'd have to think about, though I remember loving him in the Bluegrass Brawl match, and a couple of Regal and Windham singles matches. 94 had the Studd Stable stuff where I thought Arn was great in the role he was placed in.

 

There are VERY few guys I would put into the Observer HoF discussion on work alone - in fact possibly none. Arn however doesn't even rise to the level of guys who are on the bubble because of work alone. Having said that I don't see any blackholes for him during his 90's career, or really at all. Arn is one of the more consistent hands I can think of.

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan, with Arn vs. Flair you can talk about down periods, but then you can also talk about greatness.

 

Arguably Arn's best match of the 90s was against Flair. Is that match even in Flair's top 5 for the decade?

 

I know a bunch of you (jdw, for example ) will now come out and tell me that match isn't even very good, but I'd like to see the argument that doesn't put it top 5 for Arn's 90s matches.

 

Does Arn have anything to match Wrestlemania 8 vs. Savage or Rumble 92? What about the Fujinami match from 91? (the one that happened in Japan). What about the Vader match from 93?

 

Is consistently solid better than someone who hits those heights but then has some downtime?

 

Also, I think Flair never stopped being a great promo if you expand "worker" to encompass the total package. Arn was a great promo too, but I'm positive Top 10 Flair 90s promos would have the edge on Top 10 Arn 90s promos -- although he has some GREAT ones, especially during the Dangerous Alliance run.

 

I'm going to put my order in for the 92, 93 and 96 yearbooks soon. I got a bunch of birthday money I don't know what to do with, so why not? I'd be interested to see Loss's opinion on this given that he's seen them all.

I think Arn is the best promo in wrestling history aside from possibly Cornette, so you aren't going to sell me on that. And I love Flair promos.

 

Arn v. Flair is a fine match for what it is, but I don't even think it is Arn's best singles match THAT YEAR. That would be the Alex Wright match from Slamboree. It MIGHT be a top three Arn match from 95 - the match teaming with Vader v. Stars N Stripes from tv is also safely better.

 

Does Arn have anything like Savage from Mania or Vader from Starrcade? Doubtful in the sense that those were both spectacle matches and Arn was never booked that way. Does he have performances that I think are on the level of those matches and matches that I think are better? Sure. The WCWSN 2/3 Falls match from I believe May of 92 immediately comes to mind. To me that is a GREAT Arn performance, though I haven't watched it in a couple of years.

 

I think at WORST Arn's best stuff is comparable to Flair's best stuff. And he has less embarrassing stuff.

[Victator]

I think Arn/Regal from Superbrawl IV is better than anything Flair did in the 90s.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's what I said about that match on my site:

 

Regal vs. Arn, I think, is really disappointing. People say "it's an acquired taste" but they have almost 30 minutes in which there is NOT A SINGLE wrestling maneuver until Arn's spinebuster. So that's no suplexes, no piledrivers, not even any slams. It's just hold, counter-hold, punch, hold. I think there's a place for submissions and mat-wrestling, but I really want to see a few high spots too. I'd give this match less than **, which is criminal considering the talent involved.

[FLIK]

Arn v. Flair is a fine match for what it is, but I don't even think it is Arn's best singles match THAT YEAR. That would be the Alex Wright match from Slamboree. It MIGHT be a top three Arn match from 95 - the match teaming with Vader v. Stars N Stripes from tv is also safely better.

There were a couple Arn vs Flair matches, any specific one you're talking about?

 

I'll also toss out the Arn/Flair vs Vader handicap match that set up the Flair vs Arn feud as another real good one from this time frame.

[Dylan Waco]

I assume we are talking about Fall Brawl

[FLIK]

I assume we are talking about Fall Brawl

Naw there were a few others

 

10/2/95 on Nitro which is really good

10/9/95 Cage Match, only goes a few mins, more of an angle to lead to Sting/Flair vs Arn/Pillman the following week, still awesome though.

May have been more besides this but i'm blanking at the moment

[Dylan Waco]

Oh I am AWARE that there are others. My point is that I assume that is the match we are talking about because typically that is the match that is hyped

[JerryvonKramer]

I was talking about Fall Brawl, yeah.

 

The 5-minute Arn and Eddie vs. Savage and Flair match from Slamboree 96 is really great and fun by the way. One of my favourite sub-10 minute matches ever. I'd put it up there with the best Hansen vs. Baba matches for sheer awesomeness and funess.

[FLIK]

Oh I am AWARE that there are others. My point is that I assume that is the match we are talking about because typically that is the match that is hyped

Ah, gotcha, been a since I watched it, should prob give that 1 re-watch then since I remember very little about the Fall Brawl match.

 

1 last moment to bring up just since we're on the subject. The time Arn beat Hogan 2 weeks in a row in early 96 is up thear with like the greatest things ever too, especially the 1st week since the match was real good and the clebration afterwards is priceless

[Ricky Jackson]

Oh I am AWARE that there are others. My point is that I assume that is the match we are talking about because typically that is the match that is hyped

Ah, gotcha, been a since I watched it, should prob give that 1 re-watch then since I remember very little about the Fall Brawl match.

 

1 last moment to bring up just since we're on the subject. The time Arn beat Hogan 2 weeks in a row in early 96 is up thear with like the greatest things ever too, especially the 1st week since the match was real good and the clebration afterwards is priceless

 

This happened? Clean?