Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

[Loss]

Bret was a big show performer through and through. I don't say that as an insult, but I do think it's important to point out that most (not all, of course) of his matches that aired on Coliseum Video exclusively are really bland.

One thing that Michaels was better at doing (and you kind of touched on this by referring to his quantity of good matches) was shortish matches, matches in the five-to-fifteen-minute range. It's hard to say how much of that is from Hart's phoning it in and how much of it is that Michaels' style was more geared toward sprints. I don't know if I can think of a really good 1990s Bret Hart match that didn't reach fifteen minutes; Michaels has quite a few. I don't think that Michaels has very many advantages over Hart (and I'm a Michaels fan), but I feel like this is one.

 

Valid point. I've heard Scott Hall talk about how Bret liked to break down his matches into five-minute mini matches then tie them all together, so when you have 8 minutes on TV, that's a little tough.

[Strummer]

Steve Austin from 93-97 seemed like a 1970s wrestler trapped in the 90s. I loved it. It's a shame the injures forced him into working "brawl through the crowd" matches with little bumping. That's why when he returned in fall of 2000 I marked out for him working the Stunning Steve and early Stonecold style. It took a while for the crowd to catch up but he had them by the time of the new year

[El-P]

Sabu didn't go overboard with the tables if you pay attention, and he milked it or hit it often at the right time. Really, he's a guy that really went up dramatically in my book.

Sabu always made the big spots matter. There was a progression in the high spots, so when he finally hit the big one it mattered and got a huge reaction. I'm curious where this bad brawling supposedly was. Sabu was one of the few guys who did crowd brawling correctly. More often than not it seemed like a fight. Rather than dragging a guy by his hair across the arena.

 

Totaly agree.

On Sabu's punches : they were awesome. Used it like Stan Hansen would use little kicks, to make transitions between more important moves too. I would put Sabu along with Bobby Eaton as far as punching goes.

On "blowing spots" on purpose, it's no bullshit. I watched about 95% of Sabu's ECW available match (that is I may have missed a few that were on RF video, still not much I think), and the way he evolved through the times and changed his highspots is very interesting. And at some point, you can see him deliberatly stumble onto the top rope and fall back in the ring, which make him loose time, so that the guy on the table is able to get away when Sabu tries the move again. Or fall onto the top rope. I you watch him closely, you see he's totally choosing to do it. Because those dangerous spots aren't supposed to be hit perfectly everytime, if that's was the case, where's the danger ? Sabu was way smarter that he was ever give credit for. Crazy, but he knew how to convey it the best way possible. There's someting to say about Sabu's selling too, which is fascinating : you never exactly know if the guy sells or if he's really hurt, and since most of the time it was both, it made for a unique kind of selling hich was indeed "realistic".

On Sabu/RVD vs Busa/Shinzaki, like FLIK said, this match fell apart and was indeed one of the worst the four of them was involved in.

[El-P]

Steve Austin from 93-97 seemed like a 1970s wrestler trapped in the 90s. I loved it. It's a shame the injures forced him into working "brawl through the crowd" matches with little bumping. That's why when he returned in fall of 2000 I marked out for him working the Stunning Steve and early Stonecold style. It took a while for the crowd to catch up but he had them by the time of the new year

Agreed. It was so refreshing to watch him work like the old Steve Austin in 2001 after the mediocrity he fell into in the very late 90's.

[El-P]

I actually think Pillman is the ultimate "What If" guy when it comes to U.S. wrestlers. I think you could make a serious case that if he stays healthy and stays babyface he becomes a Ricky Morton/Ricky Steamboat level guy.

I don't think if was as great as those guys, but yeah, injury-free face Pillman would have put him in the top ten at the end of the decade for sure. I really think the Loose Cannon gimmick didn't age well at all, as it never really resulted in anything in the ring in any way shape or form. It was a gimmick for anecdotes : Heenan saying fuck on TV, the bookerman promo which was stupid and the reason why Russo loves shoot angles (I remember reading a column in the Raw magazine back in the days about it), a bunch of demented promos in ECW which led nowhere, a bunch of demented promos in WWF which led nowhere...

[Johnny Sorrow]

I don't know...when I read "Best U.S. Worker of the 90's?" I immediately thought "Randy Savage."

[MJH]

Bret's coliseum matches do through up some interesting moments, though. He wasn't *trying* really, I agree, but there'd be lots of clever little spots/sequences with Kimala/etc that you can't think of anyone other than Bret do that show you how easilly he could've had a solid-good match with guys who normally didn't at all. And because Bret was quite cerebral compared to the guys around him, his stuff ages as well/better than anyones.

 

Oh, and since you mentioned Randy Savage, I had a VHS coliseum him vs. Terry Taylor from '93 or thereabouts? If anyone has it and can cap it perhaps or find it online I recall it having just a brilliant shine from Savage that was full of spots no one does anymore that again showed how clever he could be when he wanted to. It's been years since but alas I have no VCR anymore to watch it back myself but throwing it out there.

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think anybody for the rest of the decade touched what Arn Anderson and Ricky Steamboat were doing in 1992.

[Frankensteiner]

In terms of Bret's Coliseum matches, I think the good (v. Shawn, v Flair, v Kamala, v Bigelow, v Luger, v Yokozuna, v Owen) outweighs the bad. When you couple those Coliseum matches with his handhelds (v Flair, Luger, Backlund, Yoko, Lawler, Savage, Bigelow, Owen, a couple of MSG tags), I think the idea that Bret only brought it on the big shows is kind of a myth. Yes, when he was in with Kwang or Adam Bomb he tended to mail it in, but that's more the exception.

 

As far as short matches go, outside of Hakushi on Raw, there's probably nothing that I would consider great. But I did enjoy his matches with Shango, Virgil, and Kamala right after he won the WWF title for the first time. There's also a couple of matches against Henry Godwinn in 95 that are pretty decent with as much as you can expect from Henry Godwinn matches in 95. Also remember liking his IC matches against Hercules and Berzerker from 91. Also a decent match against Blake Beverly from 93 Superstars that was under 5 min.

[FLIK]

He did "blew" spots on purpose at times too

Man, I was so sad when I found that out, like a kid finding out Santa's not real

 

And I don't buy into the "blows spots on purpose" bullshit AT ALL and never have.

It's been confirmed by a few people he's worked with, most notably Mikey Whipwreck in 1 of the interviews he did on F4W. Can't see any reason why he would make up the story.

 

I will add something else about Steve Austin.

 

I think late 1993/early 1994 was when he really started to come into his own. I guess it happened before that, as he improves tremendously in 1992, but I think Austin could have carried PPV main events by the beginning of '94.

As a kid I was 100% convinced him & Dustin were going to be future WCW world champs. Dustin more then Austin actually. Still wonder sometimes how things would have shaken out had Hogan & his crew not come in in 94.

[Mad Dog]

I fucking hate Sabu but I've never seen the problem with his punches or crowd brawling. Really, I feel those are his biggest positives as a worker. Also, posting Sabu stuff from his WWE run isn't fair to him. Sabu was a trainwreck by then due to injuries and his style. You have to really look at Sabu's work from 93-99 to be fair to the guy. That said, I still hate him.

[El-P]

So, since he was brought up, where does Savage ranks ? I really would not have thought about him at all, but now that I think of it, maybe he's not a worse candidate than Flair. Not to say I would include either in the top 10, but Savage did have some great matches early in the decade and a few excellent ones late in the decade against DDP. Between the two, he sometimes showed up, and also mailed in quite a bit.

How does Savage compare to Flair in the 90's ? To me he compares quite well. Flair didn't had anything as good as he Savage vs DDP since 1992 probably, and that was against Savage. Then Flair had a few good stuff in 1996 too, once again working Savage. Savage has the two Warrior matches under his belt, while Flair as Lex, who was much better than Warrior, but the Sting match is very disapointing. In terms of big matches, I think it's pretty equal (don't give me Flair vs Vader as a great Flair match).

[Dylan Waco]

Savage should have been on my original list. He's got enough there where you could see him in a top ten. I agree that the Savage v. DDP stuff is better than Flair had post-92 (well, maybe post-94). Not sure that I buy Savage as better than Flair for the decade. I'd have to go back and look at the match lists for both guys.

[Coffey]

Savage is great but in WWF he turned into a commentator, then his WCW run, he didn't do much. He was better in the 80's. Is 90-93ish good enough to put him on the list where there's other guys that worked the whole decade?

 

I think Bret is the consensus #1, but 2-10 is interesting.

 

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, this is a really hard list. I can't even come up with ten names. WWF, especially for the first half of the decade, was pretty damn bad. You had the steroid trial shit, and they more focused on gimmicks and characters than actual work. Then WCW, you had a lot of people really phoning it in because they were getting paid anyway. Like, I thought of Scott Hall's name, but does a couple years working 1-2-3 Kid & Jarrett put him in, because that's what it would be (and 2 ladder matches with Shawn). He had a lot of jobber squashes to get him over in WWF and in WCW, he didn't really do too much. Waltman could probably have a case made for him. But this list is really hard. Not too many guys that worked the entire ten years. A lot of people went to WCW and the quality of work really dropped off (sans like undercard guys that still had something to prove).

 

I think I need to look at more WCW pre-Hogan and WWF post-trial/pre-Attitude. Maybe I can find some more names.

[Dylan Waco]

I think guys like Smothers and Scorp who were active for most of the decade are really interesting candidates precisely because of that reason.

 

I also think Arn is a really interesting case. I wouldn't take it as far as OJ, but I agree with the sentiment that Arn was incredible in 92 and I'd put his year that year next to the best years of anyone in the U.S. in the 90's. But that's not all he has. He was really consistent throughout the six years of the 90's that he was active. Even in 95 when WCW was shit, he was still quite good and was likely the best guy in the promotion that year. He was great in the Studd Stable in 94. I was a big fan of the tv title stuff in 90 and I really like some of his tag matches from that year teaming with Flair and Barry as well. 91 and 93 are years I'm drawing blanks on to some degree, but I remember some strong tag matches and I like Arn's matches with Regal and Barry from 93 more than most.

 

In a decade where a lot of guys missed time and or had spotty runs, Arn had six years of being pretty damn good.

[FLIK]

Even in 95 when WCW was shit

I'm a big fan of 95 WCW myself

 

Arn vs Flair feud

Savage vs Flair feud

Diff combinations of Arn/Flair/Sullivan vs Hogan/Savage/Sting, Luger being mixed up in thear

Eddy/Dean/Benoit first showing up

Sabu's random few week run

WCW vs New Japan

Fun year

[Coffey]

I think guys like Smothers and Scorp who were active for most of the decade are really interesting candidates precisely because of that reason.

It's weird how the 90's seem so flaky. Especially considering the biggest boom period, but it didn't really focus so much on in-ring work as it did the story, I guess.

 

Here's a list of guys that came to mind that I'm going to research a little bit more to see if I can make a case for any of them:

• Chris Benoit
• Chris Jericho
• Lance Storm
• Saturn
• Rey Mysterio
• Eddie Guerrero
• Shane Douglas

[Dylan Waco]

No clue what the argument for Saturn would be.

 

Lance Storm is an awful choice. I actually think if I was restraining myself to U.S. names alone I could come up with 100 guys who I think were safely better. I've never been a fan of Storm's, but I was not expecting to find him as shitty as I did when I watched all the ECW footage. Aside from the Dreamer miracle match at Hardcore Heaven and a few tags, Storm has very little of note from that decade.

[Coffey]

Well, those names were given to my via text message by a friend at work when I told him about the thread. So I'm going to dig around, do some reading, watch some matches & see if a case can be made for any of them. He's coming over tonight after work to watch the Hell in a Cell Pay-Per-View, so I thought I would humor him. I guess I shouldn't have said they "came to mind" but they did after he mentioned them.

 

I've never liked Saturn, Storm or Douglas, but whatever. I'm sure there's some decent early Douglas tags with Steamboat and maybe some Eliminators stuff with Saturn? I don't know. Jericho debuted in 1990, had a J-Cup in, I think '95 and then showed up in ECW in '96. So he missed like half the decade from what I know. Maybe I overlooked some earlier stuff or something though.

 

I personally think I could make a stronger case for Haku/Meng than I could for Saturn, but whatever.

 

Also, I challenge your 100 list! I couldn't even come up with 10 for this list! I'm stuck at six...

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think Jericho belongs. By his own admission, he had no real understanding of psychology until he got to the WWF and learned from Pat Patterson.

 

Also, I challenge your 100 list! I couldn't even come up with 10 for this list! I'm stuck at six...

I'm at eight. Bret's the clear #1. Then, in no particular order, I've got Shawn, Austin, Vader, Foley, Eddy, Rey, and Owen.

[JerryvonKramer]

Savage ... was better in the 80's

A think a similar "Best US worker of the 80s" thread would also be an interesting conversation and Savage would have to be high in that mix.

[Dylan Waco]

Also, I challenge your 100 list! I couldn't even come up with 10 for this list! I'm stuck at six...

Should be clear with my intent.

 

I'm not prepared to rattle off an organized top 100 list for U.S. guys from the 90's. I am having trouble with an order in a top ten myself.

 

But 100 guys from U.S. better than Lance Storm in the 90's?

 

That is not a list that strikes me as hard work.

[Mad Dog]

Lance Storm had exactly one good run in his career and that was the 8 months or so he was in WCW. Storm lacked charisma, couldn't brawl and wasn't really capable of carrying someone in a match. I tend to feel that Lance Storm got his undeserved good reputation because he was the last sound technical wrestler ECW had and because he's Canadian. Look at his later WWE run and how boring he was.

 

I will throw out several guys who were not top 10 calibur guys that I feel were better than Lance Storm. Jeff Jarrett, Billy Kidman, Alex Wright, Kane, Road Dogg, Val Venis, Rikishi, Bob Holly, Bltizkrieg and Molly Holly. Those are all late 90s main stays and all of them I can safely say were better than Lance Storm IMO.

[Coffey]

The only one of those I would argue with is Kane. Lance Storm did have a helluva drop kick, so I'll give him that. I can't really disagree with anyone that shits on his work though. To me, it felt like a lot of people, at least on-line, would talk about how great he was, and I kind of just kept waiting for him to show it and he never really did.

[Mad Dog]

Kane was in a successful tag team with X-Pac and he was a difference maker his first 6 months in the WWE. He had good agility for a big man, good offense, had moves he would only break out in big matches. Didn't sell too much, sold enough, got over despite not being able to talk and having a fucking shitty gimmick. Good matches with Austin and Vader. In 1999 his tag team with X-Pac was really the only thing in the company worth a damn in the ring.

 

Kane's biggest flaw is he had a feud with the Undertaker who wasn't having a lot of good matches at the time and the WWE Undertaker in 98 and 99 wasn't a good place to have good matches on a consistent basis.