Ricky Jackson Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Booking a wrestler to lose a bunch of matches and then suddenly announcing them as "number 1 contender" for no reason, like Morrison and Punk recently, has always been a pet peeve of mine. I'm not super anal about, nor am I going to embrace Evolve anytime soon, but I do wish winning and losing mattered a little bit more than it does in WWE. But yeah, I guess most fans don't give a shit about stuff like that, and it's not like the WWE has had much of a track record in that regard since the early 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Regarding Bret Hart's "fighting champion" gimmick - this is precisely the reason Bret Hart became my favorite wrestler as a 9-10 year old. I thought it was so incredibly cool that there was finally a champ that would defend all the time against anyone that faced him (or, they at least did an awesome job of presenting the idea.) At the time the Apter mags played a big role in influencing my impression of Hogan. They pointed out that Hogan made zero title defenses after winning the title from Yokozuna until losing it at King of the Ring and totally ignored the supposed 30-day defense rule. * And the early days of WWF booking Raw were certainly unique. They would shoot an angle during a show that would lead to a match later that night, something WWF didn't do much before. They did several instances of surprise booking that made the show a must see, even if the talent pool was thinning. I noticed this when I watched the Best of "Raw" DVD set, how the 1993 season of the program felt like the Memphis studio shows in terms of booking. We've discussed a bit here in the thread how there was some Memphis influence in the WWF at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 I couldn't find any easily available footage of it but apparently on Superstars, Bret refuted Papa Shango ... well I'll just C+P from Graham's site. 9/26/92 Superstars Papa Shango pinned John Richner with the reverse shoulderbreaker at 1:28; during the bout, Bret Hart cut an insert promo regarding the supposed curse Shango put on him that caused him to lose the WWF IC Title at Summer Slam 10/4/92 Wrestling Challenge - Bret Hart defeated Barry Hardy via submission at 2:30 via submission with the Sharpshooter; during the bout, Hart cut an insert promo saying he wasn't afraid of Papa Shango or his "curses" http://youtu.be/dHkrySwZrAc This is the start to the feud, a week or so before Summerslam. I found it by accident. Shango is demolishing a jobber post match and Hart makes the save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 SOMEWHERE we had a conversation about the WWF champion wrestling on TV and when it changed. I forget where (heck, it might have even been on DVDVR) but it was absolutely when Bret won the title as a way of stressing he was a fighting champion and giving him legitimacy. Within the first month or so after they announced it, on free TV he beat Berzerker and Kamala (Prime Time), Virgil (Superstars), and Papa Shango (SNME, via the Sharpshooter which really killed off Shango in a lot of ways). They went out of their way to mention how much of a fighting champion he was and even to show footage of the defenses in a package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 I think we reached the point that when it was a *consistent* change was during the Monday Night Wars, and possibly closer to the start of SmackDown. They worked the Bret = Fighting Champ gimmick, but it's worth remembering that Bret didn't stay champ all that long. Bret --> Yoko --> Hogan --> Yoko, then the chase of him by Bret and Lex. I don't know how much Bret was on TV in his run between Mania 94 and dropping the title to Backlund. Probably not close to the level we saw later. I think we talked about an increase in with Shawn, but it wasn't instant and instead was probably a reflection of the ratings war being tighter than Vince ever expected, and a shift to TV becoming more obsessively important to both sides of the War. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 It wasn't until Rock won the belt at Survivor Series '98 that TV title defenses became frequent. Bret had those three matches (the Kamala match was for Coliseum) after winning the belt in October. But after the Virgil match in late November he only had one other televised WWF Title match until losing the belt to Yokozuna in April. That's one match in 4 and a half months. The frequency of TV title matches during Bret's second reign wasn't unlike the number of SNME-era Hogan defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Going through Graham's site: 4/18/94 Raw vs. Kwang (non-title) 7/11/94 Raw vs. 1-2-3 Kid 7/30/94 Superstars vs. Bob Backlund 10/23/94 Action Zone vs. Owen 11/7 Raw, Bret/Davey Boy vs. Owen/Neidhart Somewhere indeterminately between the Hogan/Backlund/Bruno model of TV appearances and the Austin/Rock/Cena model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 Neither here nor there, but if you want to look at one taping which was sort of a change of an era, this is a pretty good one. WWF @ Saskatoon, Saskatchewan - Saskatchewan Center - October 12, 1992 WWF Superstars taping: Randy Savage vs. Razor Ramon did not take place as advertised The Big Bossman defeated Nailz Randy Savage & the Ultimate Warrior defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS via count-out (Dibiase & IRS had yet to win the titles but were announced as champs) Bret Hart defeated WWF World Champion Ric Flair (w/ Mr. Perfect) via submission with the Sharpshooter following a superplex to win the title at 26:29 (Smack'em Whack'em, German Fan Favorites , Bret Hitman Hart: His Greatest Matches, WWE's Top 50 Superstars of All Time) The Berzerker defeated Brian Helton Shawn Michaels defeated Jim Brunzell Jim Powers defeated Barry Horowitz Yokozuna defeated Don Hutchinson Kamala defeated Brian Jewel The Ultimate Warrior defeated Kamala Prime Time Wrestling - 10/26/92: Tito Santana fought Terry Taylor to a 10-minute draw (WWF Wrestling Grudge Matches 93) Prime Time Wrestling - 10/26/92: Crush defeated Papa Shango via disqualification at 6:44 after Shango used his voodoo stick to spray sparks into Crush's face (WrestleFest 93) Prime Time Wrestling - 11/2/92: Rick Martel defeated Jim Brunzell via submission with the Boston Crab 10/31/92 - featured the Natural Disasters / Money Inc. match from Wrestling Challenge shown in full to begin the broadcast; included footage from last week's Superstars of the Taker / Nailz staredown; featured an interview with Ric Flair & Razor Ramon in which they discussed their match at Survivor Series; included a vignette promoting the return of Bam Bam Bigelow; featured a 'Survivor Series Report' in which the Undertaker was shown building a casket for his match against Kamala and included the announcement that Tatanka would face Rick Martel at the event; included closing comments from Jimmy Hart who was both upset that he had been dropped by the Nasty Boys and that Money Inc. had to defend their newly won titles against High Energy the following week: Yokozuna (w/ Mr. Fuji) pinned Bill Jordan with the Bonzai Drop at 1:52 (Yoko's TV debut) (1993 Year in Review) Tatanka pinned Dale Wolfe at 2:37 with the Samoan Drop; during the bout, Doink the Clown was shown in the crowd (Doink's debut) Shawn Michaels (w/ Sensational Sherri) fought Steve May to a no contest when, as Michaels was checking himself out in his full length mirror prior to the match, Marty Jannetty came out of the crowd and had a face to face confrontation with a shocked and fearful Michaels; during the incident, Jannetty grabbed Michaels' mirror and attempted to smash it over his head but Michaels pulled Sensational Sherri in front of him, knocking her out; afterwards, Michaels ran backstage as a frustrated Jannetty checked on Sherri; Sherri was then taken backstage on a stretcher (Jannetty's return to TV after being gone 9 months) 11/7/92 - included an 'Update' segment showing last week's incident between Marty Jannetty, Shawn Michaels, and Sensational Sherri; featured an in-ring interview with the Big Bossman where he discussed his nightstick match with Nailz at Survivor Series; included a music video tribute of WWF World Champion Bret Hart, to the tune of Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers' "Makin Some Noise"; featured a vignette promoting the return of Bam Bam Bigelow; included a 'Survivor Series Report' where it was announced the Bushwhackers had agreed to let the Nasty Boys take their spot at the event and featured footage of the Undertaker making his casket for his match with Kamala; the Davey Boy Smith / Mountie match was no longer featured on the card; featured closing comments from Repo Man and WWF IC Champion Davey Boy Smith regarding their match the following week : Max Moon pinned Louie Spicolli at 1:27 with a reverse flying bodypress The Headshrinkers (w/ Afa) defeated Joey Maggs & Brian Costello at 2:04 when Fatu pinned Costello with a splash off the top Virgil pinned Jim Peterson at the 2-minute mark with a side Russian legsweep; during the bout, Doink the Clown was shown in the crowd Damien Demento pinned Steve May at 2:29 with a kneedrop (Demento's debut) WWF Tag Team Champions Ted Dibiase & IRS (w/ Jimmy Hart) defeated Owen Hart & Koko B. Ware when Dibiase pinned Hart with a neckbreaker at 4:18 11/14/92 - included a vignette promoting the return of Bob Backlund; featured an interview with the Natural Disasters & the Nasty Boys regarding their match at the Survivor Series, taped in late October; featured an 'Update' segment showing highlights of the Bret Hart / Berzerker world title bout from the previous Monday's Prime Time Wrestling and included comments from Hart and Virgil regarding their match the following week; included a vignette promoting the debut of Bam Bam Bigelow; featured footage of the Undertaker building his casket for the Survivor Series, during which Paul Bearer said the finished product would be shown the following week: WWF IC Champion Davey Boy Smith pinned Repo Man with the running powerslam at 4:56 (Smith's last Superstars appearance for 2 years) The Headshrinkers (w/ Afa) defeated Jim Powers & Bob St. Laurent at 2:15 when Fatu pinned Laurent with the top rope splash; during the bout, Doink the Clown was shown watching the match from the aisle Marty Jannetty pinned Iron Mike Sharpe with a flying fistdrop at 2:04; during the bout, Jannetty cut an insert promo on wanting to get Shawn Michaels in the ring Nailz defeated Ken Johnson via submission with a choke; during the bout, Doink the Clown was shown in the crowd Kamala (w/ Harvey Wippleman & Kimchee) pinned Steve Gillespie at 1:34 with a splash to the back Bret wins the Title, yes, but on top of that, on the Superstars taped here you get: Jannetty's return, First Bam Bam vignette The Headshrinkers first Superstars match. Doink's Debut Damien Demento's Debut. and Yokozuna's debut. For one taping, there's a lot of stuff going on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I recently came across a Stone Cold promo from 1996 where he casually mentioned that Gorilla Monsoon was just a figurehead and Vince McMahon was the real boss of the WWF. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TglE8P5V5AA Was this a big deal at the time? Did he catch any heat for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 This was around the time they started mentioning that Vince was the owner. Jim Ross had already done his heel promo in which he talked about how McMahon fired him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Jim Powers vs Barry Horowitz? The ultimate jobber dream match. EDIT: Damn that Austin promo was great. You could tell Vince wasn't exactly thrilled with Austin's spiel about him being a dirty promoter who wouldn't do anything to him because he wanted to make money off the Austin/Bret match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Austin was so great at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 What was the whole deal with Pillman at this point? Did they plan to turn him face eventually when he was ready to come back? It seemed like at first Austin/Pillman/Owen were all set up against Bret (I think they had that one interview together at Mind Games). Then IIRC Pillman was shown cheerleading backstage when Bret made his big comeback anouncement. I think Austin stared him down at the same time. The whole thing with Austin attacking Pillman made no sense considering how they were presented up to that point. Then once Pillman was out, they seemed to tease Bret/Davey vs Austin/Owen. And that was dropped quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Just as an aside to the Tito for Champ discussion, in Bret's book he mentions how Vince, prior to giving him the title, made a list of six potential babyface champions, with three of them circled, so it wouldn't be totally unfeasible for him to be on the list, since I remember reading elsewhere that also on the list were Bob Backlund and Crush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 I can't see Vince seriously considering Backlund as champ in 1993. Certainly not as a babyface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Just as an aside to the Tito for Champ discussion, in Bret's book he mentions how Vince, prior to giving him the title, made a list of six potential babyface champions, with three of them circled, so it wouldn't be totally unfeasible for him to be on the list, since I remember reading elsewhere that also on the list were Bob Backlund and Crush. I will say it again. Crush was tremendously over in the summer/early fall of 1992. This is before he REALLY took on the accent and kids LOVED the Crush hand motion and the finisher. it's the sort of Superstars/Wrestling Challenge crowd reaction I don't think I saw in WWF that year other than Sid RIGHT before the Royal Rumble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 From personal experience, my younger brother and cousin, and all their younger friends all LOVED Crush. It was a banal, silly gimmick but kids just ate it up at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 He was over, but no way they would have put the belt on him. If he was in consideration, it wasn't for long I'm sure. Putting a guy with that kind of physique was the last thing they wanted to do, in the face of the steroid scandal. His gimmick was over with me, but I really dug his theme music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Was Mr. Perfect considered as a possible babyface champ at this time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Were it not for his back issues that took him out in '91, he probably would have had a better shot at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Just thinking he was as over as anyone in that time frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 30, 2012 Report Share Posted August 30, 2012 Perfect was super over in Nov-Dec-Jan, absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Guitar Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 What was the whole deal with Pillman at this point? Did they plan to turn him face eventually when he was ready to come back? It seemed like at first Austin/Pillman/Owen were all set up against Bret (I think they had that one interview together at Mind Games). Then IIRC Pillman was shown cheerleading backstage when Bret made his big comeback anouncement. I think Austin stared him down at the same time. The whole thing with Austin attacking Pillman made no sense considering how they were presented up to that point. Then once Pillman was out, they seemed to tease Bret/Davey vs Austin/Owen. And that was dropped quickly. I think they were expecting Pillman to make a quick and full recovery. I definately remember an interview with Jim Ross were he stated that they had planned a major Austin/Pillman feud. This was when Bret/Shawn was still pencilled in for Wrestlemania 13. I think 1996 was probably the last year Vince had longterm booking plans, until Rock/Cena. Egos, injuries and WCW seemed to put the kibosh on everything in 1996/97. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 In June 93, right around the time that they switched the graphics for Superstars and Wrestling Challenge and added Savage to Mania, I think there was a sense business was down and they were trying to respond. All American had much more of an "identity" than in years past, and Heenan and Savage pushed their shows on other shows. They were also going out of their way to hype big matches on their shows. Traditionally if there was going to be a spotlight match on a syndi show, they'd do a quick interview with both wrestlers right before the end the week before. They shifted that to a quick and dramatic "NEXT WEEK" promo that actually made things feel important. That's how they set up the Doink/Crush blow off, the Money Inc/Steiners blow-offs, Crush vs Yoko, Bret vs Bam Bam, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2013 Report Share Posted January 9, 2013 So on the October 4, 93 Raw, the one with the Battle Royal to set up Martel vs Razor for the IC belt, they have a Heavenly Bodies squash and Heenan, while sitting next to Vince on commentary, announces he'll have the RnRs on All American (his show) this weekend, and that they were the number one tag team of the 1980s. And Vince doesn't contest it but instead seems terribly impressed. Very surreal thing to hear on WWF tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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