Dooley Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Looking back at it, it seems like Diesel's reign was kneecapped as badly as Warrior's was. Not saying either guy was better than they were, but their booking as champ certainly did them no favours. The other thing about the Shawn turn was that even the promo up to the turn didn't foster much sympathy for Shawn. He basically blames Sid for the loss and tells him to take a hike, Sid responds by telling him to show him some respect. Shawn blows a gasket and Sid clobbers him. It's no wonder the crowd thought Sid was turning. Very clunky execution, reminiscent of Demos-PoP at SS '88 where the crowd actually thought Fuji was turning face, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 Yeah, I know they were worried about Diesel getting booed in his first title defense against Bret at the Rumble, which makes me wonder a few things: (1) Were they so short-sighted in attempting to recreate Hulkamania that they couldn't have Diesel win the title in a more competitive match, and hold it off to the Rumble at that? The advantage was that more people would have seen his title win and he'd actually beat a heel that meant something. (2) If they needed heels to feed Diesel after turning and knew they were turning him as early as July (according to Nash, that's when he first learned about it), why didn't they protect Owen more in blowing off the Bret feud? If they wanted bigger heels that were a better visual match, it seems like they could have also put a different wrestler against LT at Wrestlemania and built up Bigelow as a top shelf opponent for Diesel. (3) Why even do the Bret match if that's the reaction they are worried about? A newly turned babyface who needs cred and favorable booking facing the most popular guy in the company in his first high profile title defense seems counterproductive. Diesel vs Bret might have meant more if it was held off a little longer. Hell, Diesel being champion might have meant more if it was held off a little longer. Watching Bret week-to-week in 1994, as soup23, Kevin Ridge and others have done along with myself, we all pretty much agreed that Bret's supposed signature run felt a little anti-climatic for whatever reason. So we understood going in a new direction. But the suddenness of the switch just sort of screwed with everyone, instead of maximizing the potential of Diesel's win, the turns of Shawn and Bigelow, the elder statesman role of Bret, the heel runs of Owen and Backlund, etc. WWE really needed strong heels at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 It really is remarkable how lopsided the babyface side was in WWE from April to August 1995. The babyface side has Diesel, Shawn, Bret, Bigelow, Luger, Bulldog, Ramon, and Undertaker. The top heels were Sid, Mabel, Owen, Yokozuna, Lawler (and later Isaac Yankem), and Hakushi (who turned face in the fall). I mean shit, Tatanka got a PPV main event during this time period! They couldn't leave either Shawn or Bigelow as a heel? Shawn turning at the same time completely took the wind out of the sails of the Bigelow turn. And I know he wasn't under contract, but why not try going back with Luger as a heel? Luger as a heel might have been fresh after his babyface turn failed to set the world on fire two years previously. It's really odd booking, that the babyface side would be so stacked with almost no heels who could actually work with these guys. The last thing they needed post-Mania was more babyfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 The only Jannetty story I completely believe is Savage saving him from the cops. And that's because it makes me happy. The Marty story I tend to believe are the ones of him drugging up women to bang, which if I recall correctly he told on his brief time on Wrestling Classics. Bix or Dylan - do you remember them? Anyway... it's not something that someone would make up, and only something that someone would say if he thought it was a cool funny story of his fun old days in the business. I recall that a slew of people were flat out appalled. Drugging some college kids (two guys and a girl) on a plane and molesting the girl. Buddy Rose and Luke Williams (I think) corroborated it. It's crazy how perception changes. It's not to say that was acceptable then, but the criminal justice system now makes that a very serious crime (as it should be). The guy must be a serious sociopath, which I suspect is an overrepresented psychological condition in the business. It was a crime back then, and a pretty serious one. It's just that rape and sexual assualt have always been under reported and especially in that age range (high school / college) and circumstances (booze or drugs involved). They still are under reported, and if you ever read the stats on the % of women raped or assualted in their lifetime, the % that aren't reported, and then the % of rapists / assualist who actually ever do time... you brain would hurt. It's staggering data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 The only Jannetty story I completely believe is Savage saving him from the cops. And that's because it makes me happy. The Marty story I tend to believe are the ones of him drugging up women to bang, which if I recall correctly he told on his brief time on Wrestling Classics. Bix or Dylan - do you remember them? Anyway... it's not something that someone would make up, and only something that someone would say if he thought it was a cool funny story of his fun old days in the business. I recall that a slew of people were flat out appalled. Drugging some college kids (two guys and a girl) on a plane and molesting the girl. Buddy Rose and Luke Williams (I think) corroborated it. It's crazy how perception changes. It's not to say that was acceptable then, but the criminal justice system now makes that a very serious crime (as it should be). The guy must be a serious sociopath, which I suspect is an overrepresented psychological condition in the business. It was a crime back then, and a pretty serious one. It's just that rape and sexual assualt have always been under reported and especially in that age range (high school / college) and circumstances (booze or drugs involved). They still are under reported, and if you ever read the stats on the % of women raped or assualted in their lifetime, the % that aren't reported, and then the % of rapists / assualist who actually ever do time... you brain would hurt. It's staggering data. I think his point was that it was on a commercial flight and there were no repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I'm reading the "how perception changes" and "now", and think the point of his first two sentences is the one I addressed. He, you and I all agree that it would be nice if Marty got some jail time over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 I have edited thread titles and applied searchable tags to every single thread from January 1990-January 1995 in the Match Discussion Archive section. Still need to finish '95 and do 1996 and 1997, and I'm starting to lose my will to live. It's taken me two weeks. It's exhausting. I hope the tags are used enough to justify the amount of time I'm pouring into it. I think they will be, but I really hope they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlk23 Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 - WWE has officially announced the return of Hulk Hogan to the company. WWE sent out a press release making the announcement and revealing that he will return on Raw, as well as host WrestleMania 30. The announcement adds that he will appear on the WWE Network's WWE Raw Backstage Pass, which will air live at at 11:05 PM ET.Vince McMahon said in the announcement, "We are thrilled that Hulk Hogan has returned home to WWE. It's fitting to have him help us celebrate 30 years of WrestleMania and usher in a new era with the launch of WWE Network."Hogan added, "Words cannot express how excited I am to be back in the WWE family. I only have one question for the WWE Universe: whatcha gonna do when Hulkamania runs wild as the host of WrestleMania 30?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 (1) Were they so short-sighted in attempting to recreate Hulkamania that they couldn't have Diesel win the title in a more competitive match, and hold it off to the Rumble at that? The advantage was that more people would have seen his title win and he'd actually beat a heel that meant something. Agreed. Having Diesel squash Backlund at a house show and RIGHT after SS just kind of made people go "huh"? Not only did you wash out the entire PPV, but you immediately render Backlund irrelevant instead of a viable opponent. Then, in Diesel's first real look as champ, you split the crowd against another face and have him go to a draw. Nobody benefits. (2) If they needed heels to feed Diesel after turning and knew they were turning him as early as July (according to Nash, that's when he first learned about it), why didn't they protect Owen more in blowing off the Bret feud? If they wanted bigger heels that were a better visual match, it seems like they could have also put a different wrestler against LT at Wrestlemania and built up Bigelow as a top shelf opponent for Diesel. (3) Why even do the Bret match if that's the reaction they are worried about? A newly turned babyface who needs cred and favorable booking facing the most popular guy in the company in his first high profile title defense seems counterproductive. Diesel vs Bret might have meant more if it was held off a little longer. Hell, Diesel being champion might have meant more if it was held off a little longer. It's true they could have kept Owen stronger or given them another PPV gimmick match after SS to have them end it "once and for all". That allows Bret to buy some time get his baggage out of the way before making a run at Diesel. Also allows Diesel to establish himself before a face-face match. As for Bigelow, I understand why they turned him after the LT match because you can't really rehab a heel after losing to a celeb one on one, even one as talented as LT. But you're right that they should have had more foresight to keep more heel challengers in the bullpen. One wonders if they thought Jarrett was going to be in that position, he seemed out of place interfering in the Diesel-Bret Rumble match. It's fun to think about turning Bret at that time. That would mask a lot of deficiencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted February 22, 2014 Report Share Posted February 22, 2014 I'm reading the "how perception changes" and "now", and think the point of his first two sentences is the one I addressed. He, you and I all agree that it would be nice if Marty got some jail time over it. Perception from the other passengers, who presumably didn't report it at the time. If you believe Marty (yeah, I know) a bunch of passengers were basically high fiving them for "dealing with" the unruly college kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted February 23, 2014 Report Share Posted February 23, 2014 I just heard on Blue Meanie's Twitter that Jake Roberts has cancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 Why didn't they turn Razor in 95? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I wondered that too. He didn't seem to have the drug issues yet at that point, but for whatever reason, Vince didn't seem interested in using him as a real main event guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 I think it's the same reason why they didn't turn a lot of over babyfaces at the time (and few top babyfaces wanted to turn heel). Merchandise sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted February 24, 2014 Report Share Posted February 24, 2014 With business as bad as it was in 1995, I kind of don't blame them. If you weren't going to draw, there was a lot less money in being a heel because at least the top babyfaces had something to help supplement bad paydays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would have loved a Neidhart's Raiders style angle where Razor went heel and stole the Million Dollar Corporation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Ok, so I was watching the Andersons versus Rock N Roll Express from Starrcade 1986 for the first time in full on the WWE Network and it was glorious as I expected. I figured I'd watch Flair/Koloff since I had never watched it. In between, there is this very strange music video of Magnum TA running on the beach to who I thought was his mother, but I guess was his mother. What mostly bothered me was the song it was set to "Her life is like a box that is always empty" sounds so 1995 like really had to have been produced in 90s, but this is Starrcade 1986. Does anyone know anything about this video/song?-------------------------------------------Nevermind, Tony just mentioned it on air. Song just sounded so weird in the 80s and does not seem to fit anything that happened to Magnum at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have edited thread titles and applied searchable tags to every single thread from January 1990-January 1995 in the Match Discussion Archive section. Still need to finish '95 and do 1996 and 1997, and I'm starting to lose my will to live. It's taken me two weeks. It's exhausting. I hope the tags are used enough to justify the amount of time I'm pouring into it. I think they will be, but I really hope they are. Back when I was compiling match listings for my WCW 90s project, I used Ctrl+F all your matches of the months because that was the only real place I could find a listing of the yearbooks, but sometimes you only ranked up the *** and up matches so I would have to go into each individual month to make sure I was not missing anything. Instead, I just clicked one of your tags and boom there was all the Dustin Rhodes matches no more Ctrl + F. This is so fucking bitchin'. Cawthon's site needs tagging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ok, so I was watching the Andersons versus Rock N Roll Express from Starrcade 1986 for the first time in full on the WWE Network and it was glorious as I expected. I figured I'd watch Flair/Koloff since I had never watched it. In between, there is this very strange music video of Magnum TA running on the beach to who I thought was his mother, but I guess was his mother. What mostly bothered me was the song it was set to "Her life is like a box that is always empty" sounds so 1995 like really had to have been produced in 90s, but this is Starrcade 1986. Does anyone know anything about this video/song? ------------------------------------------- Nevermind, Tony just mentioned it on air. Song just sounded so weird in the 80s and does not seem to fit anything that happened to Magnum at the time. This aired on both MACW/WWW on 9/20/85. Next we get a video for Magnum as a tribute to his mother set to Gary Morris' version of Wind Beneath My Wings which is way better than Bette Midler's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Ok, so I was watching the Andersons versus Rock N Roll Express from Starrcade 1986 for the first time in full on the WWE Network and it was glorious as I expected. I figured I'd watch Flair/Koloff since I had never watched it. In between, there is this very strange music video of Magnum TA running on the beach to who I thought was his mother, but I guess was his mother. What mostly bothered me was the song it was set to "Her life is like a box that is always empty" sounds so 1995 like really had to have been produced in 90s, but this is Starrcade 1986. Does anyone know anything about this video/song? ------------------------------------------- Nevermind, Tony just mentioned it on air. Song just sounded so weird in the 80s and does not seem to fit anything that happened to Magnum at the time. This aired on both MACW/WWW on 9/20/85. Next we get a video for Magnum as a tribute to his mother set to Gary Morris' version of Wind Beneath My Wings which is way better than Bette Midler's. Thank God! I am not going crazy because Wind Beneath My Wings was not the song that plays during this music video. They had to overdub it with in house music, which is why it sounded so out of place. This all makes so much more sense why I couldn't find that song at all on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I was just curious how Cody Hall is in the ring at this point. I know he's inexperienced, but does anyone know how he is coming along? With his look and family connection, no way does WWE not try to sign him to a developmental contract at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I don't have an answer for you right now, but I am ring announcing a show that he is on later this month. I will try and pay close attention to his match and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 1, 2014 Report Share Posted March 1, 2014 I"ve seen a bunch of his matches. He's okay. He is not dry which is a plus, but he is trying to work exactly like his dad which will be a long term problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 With recent current events being what they are, we could be on the verge of my favorite wrestling stereotype coming back in vogue: evil Russians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I'm watching Savage & Hogan vs. Avalanche & The Butcher (that's Ed Leslie, not Abdullah) from an episode of WCW Main Event from March 95'. Two random thoughts - Why is this the episode's OPENING bout? and Hogan seems so out of place in the studio setting, especially way its filmed, which really makes it seem like half the size of a high school gym. Hogan may not have been at peak popularity in 95', but he still just seems like too big a star to make sense wrestling for just a couple hundred people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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