Matt D Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 I really, truly feel that there's so much nuance in wrestling that I just missed out on completely when I was a teenager and in my early 20s and much more tuned into workrate. I've said it before, but what Benoit's death did to me was take me away from wrestling for a few years, and when i came back, the 96-06 period was really radioactive to me. I started a lot more of the stuff I grew up on and I started watching a lot more whole shows/months/etc and not just the big hyped matches and classics, and it hugely changed the way I thought about wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 Thanks to the WWE network, I'm gaining a new found appreciation for workers that I used to either despise or was indifferent to. I'm really enjoying The Mountie & The Bushwhackers lately, in example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 I've found a lot more enjoyment in wrestling as I've let go of the workrate mentality. Digesting products as a whole and having the big matches in context is what really drives me to watch anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The thing that I've really noticed is how giant everyone is. I mean, I always knew most guys in WWF back then were super-jacked. But you don't realize how big someone like Bushwhacker Butch is when there's guys like Warlord & The Ultimate Warrior running around. Butch is stout as fuck though. Don't really pick up on stuff like that when you're a kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The Benoit stuff had no impact on my viewing habits. None at all. What DID happen though is I stopped enjoying a lot of stupid stuff I would see wrestlers do. Jeff Hardy doing a Swanton Bomb on steel steps in 2014 is pretty fucking stupid and left me shaking his head. Everytime DB would do the diving headbutt and the top rope drop kick where he lands on his head left me dumbfounded on more than one occasion. Nigel was one of my favorite wrestlers in ROH, but the stupid shit he did in ROH caught up to him. I know wrestling isn't ballet, but it took Beniot death for me to really think about the 'wrestlers are not wimps! we don't need any days off!' talking points, made by people in the business, and how much bullshit those talking points are today. I find myself asking 'Why?' alot during matches these days. Seth Rollins, Cesaro, and Sheamus acting like complete idiots at MITB 2014 is a recent example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I think had it been a horrible worker who did this, it might have been viewed differently as well, if only because it wouldn't have been an indictment of good wrestling and the sometimes horrible sacrifices it takes to produce it. Those great matches sometimes come at a heavy price. Loss, I think this is completely on the money. If it was some CZW/IWA death match worker, then people would be jumping to blame the years of those crazy and insane bumps, and the need for painkillers, and clammoring for death matches to be abolished. If it was Jeff Hardy, then the blame would be strictly aimed at his substance abuse issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 How does everyone feel about referees counting intended near-falls where a shoulder is obviously not down, not enforcing unintended rope breaks, etc? It seems like this is the standard way of operating everywhere except Mexico now. Personally I think while obviously neither is desirable, preserving the intended pacing of the match takes priority over maintaining believability by enforcing the rules perfectly. The ref not counting a near-fall until the wrestlers adjust themselves into the correct position or breaking up a hold earlier than intended can really hurt the momentum of a sequence. The worst thing you can do is do like the ref in that recent Virus vs. Fuego match where he points out the shoulder isn't down, then gives up and counts the pin anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 It all comes down to the positioning of the ref. The camera usually tells the full story so its easy for me to give a ref a pass. If the ref is in a clear position to see the pin and still fucks up, then that is a totally different story. I think the peformers should have a plan B. If the finished is botch they go right into the 'doomsday' finish. If a ref count is obviously fucked then its time to go into that situation's plan B. WCW 2000 had a lot of instances where the ref makes a count and a wrestler's shoulders are no where near the mat. Both the Goldberg vs. Kronick match and the match where Kevin Nash runs the NB gauntlet come to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Similarly, you know how everyone hates the amount of spotcalling we see and hear these days? Isn't that at least partly the fault of WWE production? If you know Cena's tendency to talk freely, surely someone in the truck could ease up on the close ups... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 .....that is, of course, if no one has the balls to point this flaw out to Cena (which seems apparent). Work around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I've seen a few times where Kyohei Wada Wada will refuse to count until the wrestler's shoulders are down. I always think it's a good thing due to him actually seeing what he's supposed to be seeing as the referee in the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Crackers Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Going back and forth between modern wrestling and the DVDVR lucha set provided a similar insight for me. The difference between the loose pins you see in modern wrestling and the realistic pinning predicaments (realistic as in a lot of pressure was being applied and wrestlers had to use a lot of strength to kick out) in those 80s lucha matches was like night and day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKWildcat Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Does anyone here play Filsinger Games "Legends of Wrestling" card game? Yes, and I create many of the card stats for the LOW series. Cory or Chad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Might be Dalton too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKWildcat Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Might be Dalton too. I figured one of the Olsens since Vikings/Mid West and Dalton was an East coaster. And yes, I play the game religiously (like Mad Dog). Have created and drawn hundreds of bootleg Legends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I've been playing for 13 years. More of a Legends and Indy player than a Champions guy these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Never have been able to get into Champions at all. I am a sci-fi guy, but I don't like it mixed with wrestling. All of the color indy sets keep me well occupied!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKWildcat Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Never have been able to get into Champions at all. I am a sci-fi guy, but I don't like it mixed with wrestling. All of the color indy sets keep me well occupied!! Are you just an Indy guy or do you play Legends as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I played Legends up until I moved, because the guy that got me into the game had all of the Legends stuff. It breaks my budget keeping up with the indy releases, so I've never gotten around to picking up all the Legends stuff for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Yeah, the indy stuff has gotten expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 There seems to be a part of the online wrestling communities I frequent who find Timothy Thatcher boring. Kind of baffling to me as I'm of a completely opposite mind. I find him refreshing, charismatic, energetic, and believable. All factors that combine with the high quality of his ring work to make him the best wrestler in the world today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 There seems to be a part of the online wrestling communities I frequent who find Timothy Thatcher boring. Kind of baffling to me as I'm of a completely opposite mind. I find him refreshing, charismatic, energetic, and believable. All factors that combine with the high quality of his ring work to make him the best wrestler in the world today. Rest Holds ... alright, i'll say something a bit more substantive as well. this kinda ties into something pol & i have talked about before: the majority of online "smart" fans are really just storyline marks at heart. look at the wrestling subforums on reddit or 420chan or somethingawful, and you'll see constant complaints about booking with hardly any discussion of in-ring work beyond "i like what i like". it's especially common to see people say that cena or sheamus matches are bad solely because they won, without any care for the bell-to-bell action. i think this is relevant because it seems like the thatcher/gulak/busick style would require more attention to detail to fully appreciate, compared to what you see in the national promotions. modern wrestling fans have largely been trained to think that "great match" simply means "cool highspots + throwing bombs + hot finishing sequence", so i wouldn't be surprised that any mat wrestling would bore a lot of them to tears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 There seems to be a part of the online wrestling communities I frequent who find Timothy Thatcher boring. Kind of baffling to me as I'm of a completely opposite mind. I find him refreshing, charismatic, energetic, and believable. All factors that combine with the high quality of his ring work to make him the best wrestler in the world today. Rest Holds ... alright, i'll say something a bit more substantive as well. this kinda ties into something pol & i have talked about before: the majority of online "smart" fans are really just storyline marks at heart. look at the wrestling subforums on reddit or 420chan or somethingawful, and you'll see constant complaints about booking with hardly any discussion of in-ring work beyond "i like what i like". it's especially common to see people say that cena or sheamus matches are bad solely because they won, without any care for the bell-to-bell action. i think this is relevant because it seems like the thatcher/gulak/busick style would require more attention to detail to fully appreciate, compared to what you see in the national promotions. modern wrestling fans have largely been trained to think that "great match" simply means "cool highspots + throwing bombs + hot finishing sequence", so i wouldn't be surprised that any mat wrestling would bore a lot of them to tears! I think there's plenty of merit to what you're saying, especially when one of the online people who called Thatcher boring, and said Thatcher/Busick from last night's EVOLVE was dull and not good, went on to say about a later match that they did a lot of stuff, and then said that the later match was good. I struggle with the lots of stuff equals good mentality, when I think a guy like Thatcher does lots of stuff, just not highspot after highspot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 On an unrelated note, why has pro wrestling always had some sort of stigma against referee stoppages being legit? You read through any sort of wrestling database and results are littered with title matches where wrestler A beat wrestler B via referee stoppage but wrestler B didn't lose his title because ref stoppages aren't recognized as a way for a title to change hands. Doesn't make much sense to me as a stoppage is just as legit as getting a three count or a submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 i would imagine the kayfabe explanation would be the same one used for countouts & DQs: protection against biased/crooked officiating. perhaps that might also be a lingering effect of old "pure sport" ideals in pro wrestling. making someone bleed to the point of stopping the match wouldn't happen from Real Wrestling, you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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