Which WCW/ECW performer was most negatively effected by their companies closing?

[El-P]

Corino suffered in more ways than one. He either had, or was scheduled to, sign with WCW (after Dusty pushed for him) right before the company closed (I've seen his shoot interview, but forget the specifics). When WWF purchased the company, he was no longer required. He's had a decent run on the Indys and I am guessing made a good living, but it would have been no where near the same had WCW not died.

I doubt he would have amounted to anything in WCW. Too small, too "indie", too referential. He would have been lost in the shuffle. Maybe Dusty would have pushed for him a bit, but that would only help him so much. Like FLIK said, Corino had a very nice career in Japan and was a lot more successful than any other ECW guys not picked up (or even picked up) by WWF. Corino had quite a successful post ECW career actually. The same can't be said for guys like Justin Credible or C.W. Anderson.

[Marty]

Yeah, I thought of Corino, but when I saw what he did post-ECW, I couldn't justify choosing him like I chose Credible.

 

Thought about DDP as far as picking one from WCW, but even in spite of the stupid stalker angle, he managed to turn some chicken shit into chicken salad and even had a pretty good Mania match with Christian. Kanyon, on the other hand, was little more than a footnote alongside DDP in the InVasion angle (in spite of that one title win) and his most notable thing afterwards was the horrid Boy George bit. He was being used pretty solidly as WCW neared its end, too, and I don't think his career ever recovered after WCW's doors closed. Same feeling for Credible: pushed strongly in ECW, never the same afterwards (You can make the argument as to why he was pushed in ECW, of course, but point being is that it never happened again after that, which I gathered what this topic was about).

[El-P]

DDP was 45 when WCW went under. So it's not like he had tons of mileage left, but he could have been used much better for sure.

[Dylan Waco]

Credible was just awful as an act and had already gone far beyond what his skills merited in being ECW Champion. I suppose he technically fits the criteria because Heyman had a hard on for him and he probably would have been a main eventer in ECW for some time going forward. But he's not a guy who I think was cheated out of anything by ECW going under.

 

I love C.W. Anderson and he was on the rise in ECW so he's a reasonable answer, though I'm not sure he was ever going to be able to break through on a consistent basis

[El-P]

Credible had a stupid name and a stupid gimmick, and was a pretty bad promo in this setting, but he was a solid worker if nothing less, and a fine bumping heel. He should have been repackaged. That less talented guys like Lance Storm and Spike Dudley (yes, in the same sentence) got more out of their post ECW career is a bit of a shame, really. He could have been fine working undercards in WCW for years. Ditto C.W. Anderson, way too good to just vanish. WCW was the right fit for him.

 

Really, the death of WCW is a tragedy for US wrestlers, no matter how much some people want you to remember it only as this god-awful promotion.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm convinced that if ECW had never existed and it was just WWF and WCW, Credible would never have risen above jobber status. There's a lot of ECW guys in that bracket I reckon.

[El-P]

That's why ECW was cool. It gave an opportunity to guys the big two wouldn't even batch an eye at.

[The Thread Killer]

...Kanyon, on the other hand, was little more than a footnote alongside DDP in the InVasion angle (in spite of that one title win) and his most notable thing afterwards was the horrid Boy George bit...

I hate to disagree Marty, but I distinctly remember the man being named the Invasion and Alliance MVP.

[Loss]

Quite the honor. It hasn't gone to very many people.

[Dylan Waco]

Credible had a stupid name and a stupid gimmick, and was a pretty bad promo in this setting, but he was a solid worker if nothing less, and a fine bumping heel. He should have been repackaged. That less talented guys like Lance Storm and Spike Dudley (yes, in the same sentence) got more out of their post ECW career is a bit of a shame, really. He could have been fine working undercards in WCW for years. Ditto C.W. Anderson, way too good to just vanish. WCW was the right fit for him.

 

Really, the death of WCW is a tragedy for US wrestlers, no matter how much some people want you to remember it only as this god-awful promotion.

Since you brought it up, there wasn't a single thing Credible did better than Spike other than talk on the mic which is a win by default. His bumping was his strong suit and he was not a bad worker, but he was not a particularly good one either.

[El-P]

I don't think Spike does anything *well*. I had to suffer through a Spike vs RVD match on HC TV yesterday, man it was bad. Two shitty workers having a sloppy train wreck of a match. Some impressive spots from RVD, and Spike is willing to fuck himslef up, which is the only credit I give him, but oustide of that, it was painfull.

Anyway, it's beating a dead horse, we'll never agree on this.

 

Credible getting a tolerable match out of Chetti (who sucks donkey balls, we agree on that) is pretty impressive to me. The Lance Storm vs Nova match that followed was considerably worse. More athletic, with more "cool spots", but worse.

 

I can't believe I forgot Danny Doring & Roadkill, who were having good matches on every TV show in 2000. I would have loved to see them randomly show up on Thunder in 2001.

[El-P]

I still don't know what to make of Luger, I have gone back and forth on him over the years. He definitely had a fair sized bunch of good matches (not all of them with Flair), he was a solid promo, he seemed pretty over at different points in his career, why didn't he connect? Why could't he really follow through?

Luger connected big time in WCW. He was fucked by booking in 1990 when Flair refused to drop the belt to him at WrestleWar despite Luger being hot as hell. Then he got fucked again in 1991 when Flair left with the belt just before he was supposed to out Luger over yet again at GAB. Luger had lost a bit of steam, but was still over.

Don't forget that Luger got fucked by booking in WWF also. SummerSlam 93 kinda killed him. His career had this bizarre pattern of him being a choker.

Then when he came back in 1995, Luger got super hot really fast, and was one of the most interesting character of the promotion for a few months before turning full fledge face with the nWo angle. Him winning the belt from Hogan on Nitro is still considered one of the biggest moment of the Monday Night War era. Even after doing nothing of note for months in 98, he got a monstruous reaction when he joigned the nWo Wolfpack. Then the Total Package gimmick in 99 made him fun again since he's a much better heel than a face. Luger was *over* with the WCW crowd. I'd argue he was a much better worker than Sting at least from 89 to 91 (well, there's not even an argument, the matches are there).

[Bob Morris]

I'm surprised Bill Goldberg hasn't been mentioned yet. WWE had no clue how to book Goldberg, from having him do segments backstage for laughs to the SummerSlam EC match in which he was plowing through everybody, only to get killed by HHH.

 

For all of WCW's faults, the company generally was smart enough to not try to "reinvent the wheel" with most of the top wrestlers who came over from WWE, even if they weren't always pushed properly. WWF/E, on the other hand, has often tried to alter WCW's top wrestlers into WWF/E's own image. It's the chief reason why I think Sting was smart to stay with WCW throughout his entire career.

 

Back to Goldberg, poor booking in WCW did hurt his drawing power, but somebody who was smart enough to get him back on track might have been able to make him marketable again.

 

Agreed on O'Haire, who Bischoff was pretty high on. Chuck Palumbo is another one that comes to mind, as he generally got praise from WCW folks for his in-ring work, but was lost in the shuffle in WWE. And no, I don't consider the Billy-Chuck angle to be anything that helped Palumbo.

 

Lance Storm might have fared better had WCW not gone under. He was pushed strongly from the time he debuted there and he would at least have been a guy who could be a regular upper midcarder who is credible enough to put into main events.

[jdw]

Luger connected big time in WCW. He was fucked by booking in 1990 when Flair refused to drop the belt to him at WrestleWar despite Luger being hot as hell. Then he got fucked again in 1991 when Flair left with the belt just before he was supposed to out Luger over yet again at GAB. Luger had lost a bit of steam, but was still over.

There never was any plan for Lex to win the belt at WrestleWar. This was the match where Ric refused to job:

 

NWA @ Chicago, IL - UIC Pavilion - March 23, 1990 (6,500)

A film crew, as well as Lance Russell, Chris Cruise, and Dennis Brent were flown to the city to tape what was scheduled to be NWA World Champion Ric Flair losing the title to NWA US Champion Lex Luger; the title change didn't take place because Flair wasn't given ample notice, which was part of his contract; Flair agreed to the title change but only in return for a contract release, which Jim Herd refused; Pro Wrestling Illustrated's Bill Apter was also on hand

Mike Rotunda pinned Cactus Jack; after the bout, Cactus was taken to the hospital for having been tied in the ring ropes too long during the match

Norman pinned Kevin Sullivan

Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated Jimmy Garvin & Steve Casey (sub. for Michael Hayes)

NWA US Tag Team Champions Brian Pillman & Tom Zenk defeated Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane

NWA Tag Team Champions Rick & Scott Steiner defeated NWA TV Champion Arn Anderson & Ole Anderson

The Road Warriors defeated Doom

NWA World Champion Ric Flair pinned NWA US Champion Lex Luger at 20:13 after Ole Anderson interfered and hit Luger with Woman's high heel shoe

John

[Jingus]

The fuck was Ole doing in the ring in 1990?

[jdw]

So thinking about this thread, I'm wondering bigger picture. We're tossing around a lot of guys whose livelihoods were altered, or missed out on decent pushes. I'm wondering if there's anyone who had a potential Hall of Fame career screwed up by ECW/WCW closing?

 

I'm trying to think of one, and I'm not sure.

 

The problem with "closing" is that it's limiting. Take Goldberg's HOF potential. Long before WCW closed, they already had blown the potential of him being a huge draw (at least according to folks like Dave). So the simply fact of WCW closing might not have impacted him because Shitty WCW was already tanking his HOF chances.

 

I'm not arguing he had HOF chances. There have been folks who saw him as an off the charts potential.

 

Did anyone have that potential screwed up?

 

John

[Johnny Guitar]

So thinking about this thread, I'm wondering bigger picture. We're tossing around a lot of guys whose livelihoods were altered, or missed out on decent pushes. I'm wondering if there's anyone who had a potential Hall of Fame career screwed up by ECW/WCW closing?

 

I'm trying to think of one, and I'm not sure.

 

The problem with "closing" is that it's limiting. Take Goldberg's HOF potential. Long before WCW closed, they already had blown the potential of him being a huge draw (at least according to folks like Dave). So the simply fact of WCW closing might not have impacted him because Shitty WCW was already tanking his HOF chances.

 

I'm not arguing he had HOF chances. There have been folks who saw him as an off the charts potential.

 

Did anyone have that potential screwed up?John

I think the answer to that is How successful WCW could have been this decade, if they'd stayed in business. For all WCW's faults. They are a million miles ahead of TNA.

 

In the summer of 2002. Jericho, The Hardys, The Dudleys and Edge & Christian contracts all came up for renewal. If WCW was in business would they have jumped? If they did. Bang! goes most of the mid card.

 

As psychically banged up as Austin is. When he had his falling out with Vince in 2002. Would he have at some point gone back to WCW? Who knows? Austin himself said he can still work, although not on a full time schcudle. But him showing up in WCW, some where down the line could be big business.

[jdw]

The fuck was Ole doing in the ring in 1990?

This was after Arn & Tully were suppose to jump back, Tully flunked the WWF dope test, Herd pulled back the offer for Tully and lowered the pay to Arn, and Ole was forced out of retirement to reform the horsemen. Remember Ole's great mic work at the Clash when the Horsemen turned on Sting? That's right in this timeframe. They pretty much killed time until Barry jumped back as well.

 

Arn & Tully... talk about blown opportunities.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

So thinking about this thread, I'm wondering bigger picture. We're tossing around a lot of guys whose livelihoods were altered, or missed out on decent pushes. I'm wondering if there's anyone who had a potential Hall of Fame career screwed up by ECW/WCW closing?

 

I'm trying to think of one, and I'm not sure.

 

The problem with "closing" is that it's limiting. Take Goldberg's HOF potential. Long before WCW closed, they already had blown the potential of him being a huge draw (at least according to folks like Dave). So the simply fact of WCW closing might not have impacted him because Shitty WCW was already tanking his HOF chances.

 

I'm not arguing he had HOF chances. There have been folks who saw him as an off the charts potential.

 

Did anyone have that potential screwed up?John

I think the answer to that is How successful WCW could have been this decade, if they'd stayed in business. For all WCW's faults. They are a million miles ahead of TNA.

 

In the summer of 2002. Jericho, The Hardys, The Dudleys and Edge & Christian contracts all came up for renewal. If WCW was in business would they have jumped? If they did. Bang! goes most of the mid card.

 

As psychically banged up as Austin is. When he had his falling out with Vince in 2002. Would he have at some point gone back to WCW? Who knows? Austin himself said he can still work, although not on a full time schcudle. But him showing up in WCW, some where down the line could be big business.

 

This is interesting food for thought, but I'm not confident WCW would have had any clue how to use any of these guys. Hell we know they didn't know how to use Jericho the first time around and the tag team scene in WCW probably would have meant little.

 

I don't think Corino would have been an HoFer, but I do think he had HoF "complete package" level talent and in the right place, at the right time, could have been a big time money maker.

[Victator]

I think WCW closing fucked over guys like Raven and Justin Credible. I don't think either would of been a main eventers. But they had a good niche in the WWF midcard and probably would of moved up some. Then WCW closed and the influx of WCW guys and RVD turned them into jobbers.

[Matt D]

The fuck was Ole doing in the ring in 1990?

And who the hell put together a card with FOUR tag matches in a row?

 

Hell we know they didn't know how to use Jericho the first time around and the tag team scene in WCW probably would have meant little.

To me this is an interesting thing to examine. Yes, putting Jericho into NWO Hollywood would have PROBABLY been a mistake, but considering that a lot of the booking of Jericho at the end was to bully him into signing a contract, I'm not sure that should be examined. Certainly in 98, he was booked strongly, and very well protected. He was kicking out of guys' finishers left and right as Cruiserweight champ. Part of his trophy collection was that he kept taking guys out, one way or another. The Malenko feud was super hot. It was only what, two months after he lost the Cruiserweight title at Road Wild that they gave him the TV belt which seemed like a good logical progression. The Goldberg thing was a bit of a mess but I think Jericho actually came out of that stronger and more over in some ways. I have no idea why they put him with Bobby Duncam Jr. though. And yes, he lost the belt to Konnan shortly thereafter, but they let him go over during the start of the feud with Saturn, even during the midst of the contract negotiations, and that really wasn't a bad pairing for him at the time. It's not like WWE used him well in 99. Don't get me wrong. I was 17 in 1998 and Jericho was one of the things that really re-hooked me into wrestling after a lapse of a few years and I thought he should be god champion of the world. But I'm a bit more mellow now and more detatched, and I'm not sure that what they DID do with him was all that bad anymore.

[Loss]

It took a few years for the WWF to get it right with him too, but the biggest difference is that Jericho got to work with HHH and Rock within his first year in the company, and with Austin not too long after. Even if he had stayed, I don't see Jericho doing programs with Hogan, Nash and Goldberg in WCW.

[Matt D]

Should have Jericho been working with Hogan, Nash and Goldberg in late 98? Even Goldberg would have been mostly a comedy angle where he got fed to him brutally and probably ended up looking the worse for it. Look at how Raven's push got obliterated because he happened to have the US title at the time that Goldberg needed it. Just a month or two before he was attacking DDP on talk shows.

 

Jericho should have had a 6-8 month run with the TV title and then moved into US Title stuff. Stayed there for a while and then MAYBE ended up in the main event 6-8 months after that. Mid 00 Sounds about right, actually. You can't be protected while working with Hogan/Nash/Goldberg.

[Loss]

I agree that a slow path to the top is best, because you condition fans to see him at that level and slowly make them want to see him at that level. The question is: would WCW have done that if he stayed? I don't think they would have. There's the famous story where Bischoff told Dave exactly how he saw Jericho.

[Bix]

Not WCW/ECW guys, but it's probably worth mentioning that WWE developmental had a huge turnover when the WCW deal happened. Among that groups, Joey Abs (fired) and Steve Bradley (kept on but lost his spot due to RVD coming in among other things) probably got screwed the worst.