A thread in which Dylan compares various wrestlers to HHH

[Dylan Waco]

Goldberg

 

This is a good comp because it's two guys with huge egos, who became stars during the same era, and had invincibility gimmicks where they squashed people on tv every week. To be fair I'm not sure that was supposed to be HHH's gimmick, but it was certainly a byproduct. Also not sure it was supposed to be Goldberg's gimmick but in a case where he was the exact opposite of HHH the fans were attracted to him which led to his monster push v. fans being repelled by him til they give in after unrelenting assault of him being shoved down their throats ala HHH. In any event he did about as many tv jobs as Goldberg during their relative peaks, both guys had poorly timed injuries that contributed to their peaks being cut off, both guys are probably remembered as much bigger stars than they really were, both guys had elaborate entrances that took forever, et. Goldberg was more protected in the sense that he was never really allowed to give terrible, rambling promos, or dictate the length of his own matches. Or at least he was never stupid enough to say "hey I bet I could have a really great match with Wrath if you gave us 35 minutes." I don't think there is any question that Goldberg was the better tv wrestler. If pressed you could probably point to more HHH matches that people raved about at the time, but Goldberg made squashes and competitive squashes fun. He was really good about busting out those one or two spots a match where you would think "what the fuck, how does he know how to do that?" I could watch a hundred Goldy v. Hugh Morris matches before I could watch all but a small handful of HHH tv matches. I am not a huge fan of the pedigree, but usually finisher would be an area where you would think HHH would be competitive. But Goldberg is one of the only guys in history that had a spear that looked great and the jackhammer was an awesome finish. Goldberg is a guy who everyone called limited but had really fun tv matches v. Hogan and Raven. Goldberg is a guy people say couldn't work in competitive matches, but the Regal match was pretty damn good and that DDP match was fucking great. Actually for superhero god king v. the most over ace crusher variation in wrestling matches, Goldberg v. DDP got it right the first time and had a tremendous match. HHH v. Orton have had tons of chances and while they've had good matches, they have never had anything at that level. Goldberg was actually better at getting across vulnerability than HHH and Goldberg is a guy who wasn’t supposed to be vulnerable to much anything. Post-prime HHH has been unbearable more often than not. Post-prime Goldberg was actually a good fit in the WWE and his work during that period was much better than HHH's work during the same period. I actually don't see any case at all for HHH here.

 

Ray Traylor

 

Oh seriously now, Bossman is easily better. I have already mentioned this, but Bossman/Garvin ten count finish, is better than any comparative HHH Last Man Standing style spot. Bossman is one of those guys who when you go back he ages better, and he was clearly good at the time. He’s got fun little tv matches and undercard ppv matches and tag team matches. When he was given chances to shine on the big stage, he was a good drawing opponent for Hogan who he had very good matches with (among the best in Hogan’s career). He had awesome slugfest brawls with Vader that were as convincing as you could get, something HHH’s brawls – even the good ones – really don’t get across. When he pops up as guy brawling around SMW buildings as special enforcer or in cop gear wrestling Kobashi he is charming as hell and you really wish he was a full timer. He had one of the best punches in wrestling. His angle about Big Show’s dad was far better and more memorable inappropriate comedy act than DX talking about how they were bisexual and/or wearing thongs. Kennel From Hell was a better match than Michaels/HHH Hell In A Cell, though the Michaels/HHH match may have had higher ratio of bitches. Bossman is one of those guys I think was pretty great, but want to go back and re-explore. He’s not really a guy I see as a top 100 all-time contender, but he wouldn’t look insane on such a list and I think he’s a guy who’s status could really go up with re-exploration. HHH holds up about as well as Sayama spin kicks.

 

Scott Steiner

 

This is an interesting one because for all of Steiner’s faults, he is a guy who in old age has been fairly entertaining with the EXCEPTION of his last WWE run which was horribly fucked to hell by HHH sandbagging and idiocy. If you want to say the low of Steiner falling over himself while his pink thong whale tail was exposing itself was lower than anything HHH has done I could see it. I mean Katie Vick was bad, but fucking the dead may be a step up from roidhead guy in Prince Arthur head gear wearing Victoria’s Secret underwear. Still this is easily Steiner. When I was a kid Steiner was one of my very favorite wrestlers. He is one of the guys who solidified my fandom and I’m not ashamed to say it was because of MOVEZ. See I like the moves when they mean something now, but back then I just liked to see guys get crushed with them. Hell I still like to see guys get crushed with them and I would much rather a guy be unprofessional dude head dropping Brian Knobbs, than unprofessional guy burying the entire roster and wasting tv time with boring as piss promos. Steiner at his most dynamic and explosive was one of the most fun guys ever, whereas HHH at his most dynamic and explosive was a good piece of luggage for Mick Foley. Hell even post-prime Steiner where his finish looked like dog shit is better. Certainly the promos are a fuckload more entertaining, but I would rather watch short, stiff tv brawls with General Rection than “Cerebral Assassin” clinics. Steiner is a rare guy who actually showed lots of fun stuff inTNA and his use of racism in wrestling was more entertaining than HHH’s. Even this year I would take his terrorizing of Indians over HHH and his husband arguing about whether or not to put down the family pet.

 

Paul Roma

 

I don’t care for Roma, but mechanically I don’t see how he was worse. Actually much like HHH, Roma was a guy who was okay enough as an undercard talent working other undercard talent. I liked the Young Stallions as a kid and Power and Glory were a fun team with a cool finish. Roma looked and played the cocky douche role pretty well, sort of a pre-Jersey Shore Situation. He was badly exposed when they tried to bring him in as a Horseman because he clearly wasn’t at that level. You just don’t have your utility fielder batting cleanup. Roma suffers here because he was a douche who didn’t have the right friends. If Roma had gotten in with Flair, Arn or even Bischoff – maybe carry Arn’s bags, or give Ric a 10k loan or something, forged a civil union with Garrett Bischoff, et. – it is easy to envision us having the same thread with his name in the place of HHH. Anyhow I have to rate HHH better, because his overpushed, clearly out of place, on air position was buttressed by really excellent behind the scenes brown nosing, fellating, et. Roma is really the better on air douche though.

 

Mike Von Erich

 

It’s late and I’m not sure I can think of a Toxic Shock joke involving HHH, Steph and tampons that even approaches being funny enough to make a comment on Mike worthwhile. So just imagine it here.

 

Jeff Jarrett

 

I have been talking to Loss some as he goes through the yearbooks and young Jarrett has been a real revelation for him. I have vague memories of Jarrett from that era and look forward to checking it out, but I don’t need to rely on that stuff to know that Jarrett is better than HHH. Jarrett is a guy who understands psychology and has a good enough delivery where even in overbooked, clusterfucks he usually contributes something that makes you remember he’s a good wrestler. Both guys have loyalty to people who have been horrible influences on the creative direction of the business and in both cases it is possible that sex plays a role. But I don’t get the feeling Jarrett was ever driving the bad ideas the way HHH was. Anyhow, Double J era was a lot better than Blue Blood era HHH and Michaels match was a great Jarrett style match where he led Shawn, something HHH could never do. WCW Jarrett was better than DX era HHH. As heel aces neither guy was believable. HHH had the better matches but was in a far better situation. Jarrett is better working with washed up vets as Greed match and Raven/Angle carry jobs show. He had good matches with Styles and Lethal that I liked better than any “HHH elevates undercard talent and cuts his balls off the next week” match which would be the best comparison. I thought he had a better year last year than HHH too actually. I will grant that Angle’s sloppy seconds is less impressive than Savage’s sloppy seconds.

 

Booker T

 

I am not as high on Booker T as many, but I can see no reason to rate HHH anywhere near his level. A good measure of how good a wrestler is relative to HHH is to see how horribly he sandbagged them, buried them, shit on them, undermined their push, et. Booker T was one of the more egregious victims of HHH’s justifiable insecurities. Now the most offensive thing about all of that to me was that Flair was used as a surrogate for the most racially charged material and it all felt flat compared to Flair’s “biographical” account of Rufus R Jones passing out with a bucket of fried chicken on the hood of his Cadilliac and missing a show as a result. Still one of the reasons Steiner is better than HHH is because he didn’t get Rick to call Samoa Joe a half breed, he did it himself. Anyhow Booker got the ultimate HHH kill shot, and still managed to recover. Really if you look at the scope of their careers it is very difficult to formulate a case for HHH that doesn’t come down to a deep commitment to WWE mythology and the reality is that HHH had a ton of advantages. Booker T is a guy who was good enough that he convinced people that the terrible Harlem Heat team was good and was competent enough to make people ignore the fact that Stevie Ray is one of the worst in ring performers in the history of wrestling. Conversely HHH was “saddled” with guys like Michaels, Waltman and the NAO who were far more over than he was. Booker T got his first singles push and got over huge working guys like Benoit, Martel and Finlay and coming across like he was on their level and a capable match. HHH got his first substantial run working opposite Foley and The Rock and really felt like the clear “worst” of the bunch. HHH went on to get elevated by getting a series of wins over those guys, being shoved down everyone’s throats and having the most insane push I’ve ever seen Vince give a heel. Booker T got elevated after a worked shoot with Jarrett/Hogan/Russo and when he was under the GI Bro gimmick. Amazingly Booker was more over than HHH even then. BookDust was funnier than DX skits. King Booker was better in every way than the King of Kings. Surprise Royal Rumble entrant Booker T more entertaining and worthwhile than “I’m here to kill Punk’s heat” returning hero HHH. I am a mark for guys with multiple credible finishers and Booker T had a bunch, whereas Trip has the pedigree and a shitty looking sledgehammer strike. Book has proven he can work pretty much any slot on the card in any setting and he will have a respectable match. HHH has proven he can get himself booked against guys where there is a fifty-fifty shot things might turn out well.

 

Louie Spicolli

 

For some reason Spicolli’s death affected me a lot at the time, presumably because he seemed really, really young even in comparison to all the other guys who were dropping dead. I remember being a pretty big fan of Rad Radford as a WWE enhancement talent with personality and some cool offense for the era. In ECW he really didn’t do a lot that stood out and he wasn’t in WCW long enough to mean much of anything. Having said that his gimmick of being bag carrier for Hall and Nash made for some amusing on air moments, whereas HHH real life playing of that role was not as amusing. I certainly liked him more than HHH.

 

Ernest Miller

 

I can think of a few plusses for Miller. Namely he had a better over worked entrance and despite less career stardom, he had far more successful movie career. A part of me has always wished the planned Mortal Combat/Street Fighter WCW subdivision had taken off, as I could see Miller v. Masked Klansman Tracy Smothers or Mr. Fuji-managed crane kick specialist Jamie Dundee being tremendous matches. Miller is one of those rare guys in wrestling who seemed to be good and suck simultaneously. I feel confident in saying HHH was the better in ring performer, but Miller is one of those historic anomalies that defy this is good/this sucks conventions.

 

Mikey Whipwreck

 

Mikey in a LANDSLIDE. I had remembered thinking post-WCW Mikey was not anywhere near as good as pre-WCW Mikey and that’s not really untrue, but post-WCW Mikey was better than HHH at the time and that was HHH’s recognized peak. Mikey as accidental ace was actually a lot more believable than HHH as dominating heel ace. HHH is a guy whose best matches were heavily gimmicked affairs, well Mikey is a guy who has had some great performances in heavily gimmicked affairs. Unlike HHH though the majority of Mikey’s best performances were in straight up matches v. guys like Douglas, Richards, Jerry Lynn, Candido, et. Mikey was a substantially better bumper than HHH and that’s the one area where HHH is clearly above average. Mikey’s reluctant backyarder gimmick was more compelling than any HHH gimmick. Mikey was a far better tag wrestler than HHH ever was. In an alternate universe I can imagine HHH being sent down to ECW after the current call, to work as Lance Wright’s personal assistant in ECW. I imagine HHH could have been carried to the best matches of his career v. Mikey and he would have worked well as the third best guy on his team in matches with Furnas/Lafon or Ulf Herman/Brakuss v. Mikey/Spike/Axl.

 

Jerry Flynn

 

I would really need to see more of it, but shootstyle era Jerry Flynn is more fun than any era HHH. It is actually possible that shootstyle Flynn had enough great matches where you could build a case for him over HHH on that alone though I’m not certain of it and have no clue how many matches he worked like that off hand. I do know that Flynn was just perfectly cast in WCW. Literally not sure anyone in the history of that promotion had a more believable, true to life gimmick, as aging white guy with hideous mullet who always dresses in his martial arts digs and claims to be karate specialist/runs “dojo” for children in between binge drinking but somehow can never win in a real fight is something I am pretty confident everyone has run across in their lives at least once. I don’t know a town in America that doesn’t have a Jerry Flynn and as a single representative of a very real archetype, he succeeds on a level HHH doesn’t. I mean yes there are competitive bodybuilders who run blood cleansing schemes to beat drug tests and fuck testosterone doped near-trannies in every town too, but the average person is not likely to run into them and if you do you find them sort of repellent. Flynn is a guy you know and probably find oddly charming despite the fact that he’s clearly a fraud or a has been or both. “You see these pants? Do you wanna be spinkicked by a guy wearing these pants?” is the only other attempt I can recall offhand at mass culture trying to capture the reality of the World’s Jerry Flynn’s, so he gets extra points for being an unexplored form in high art. Less importantly he was one of the most fun WCW jobber guys to watch and served a unique role in the jobber caste as he was a tall guy, working a martial arts gimmick so he was always allowed to look imposing and get shit in and it was usually pretty cool shit. There aren’t too many guys you would rather watch Golberg destroy than Flynn and there was something exciting about seeing him work anyone because he seemed like a guy who theoretically could get pushed even though it never happened. Mechanically Flynn was better, as a representative of Americana he was better, and it is even conceptually feasible that he had a few really great matches that are better than HHH’s best matches though that is pure speculation and I suspect someone will immediately call bullshit on that. Whatever, Flynn rules.

 

British Kendo Nagasaki

 

Honestly I have always avoided him like the plague because I was told he sucked. It would be wrong to say I've seen none of him, but I honestly can't remember watching more than a few minutes.

[Jingus]

But Goldberg is one of the only guys in history that had a spear that looked great

That's because he was really hitting the other guy as hard as he possibly could. Goldberg was always stiff and sometimes reckless, and his spear looked so unique because he was essentially tackling his opponent the same way he used to hit guys in the NFL.

 

His angle about Big Show’s dad was far better and more memorable inappropriate comedy act than DX talking about how they were bisexual and/or wearing thongs.

What? DX doing bi-baiting jokes is forgettable filler at worst. The whole Big Nasty Bastard feud was downright offensive on multiple levels, stretched on forever, and helped give us one of the worst heavyweight title feuds in the modern era.

 

Kennel From Hell was a better match than Michaels/HHH Hell In A Cell

Double what? I never ever want to watch HBK/HHH's never-ending Cell match ever again, but the only possible way the Kennel was better is if you're giving that one a huge "so bad it's good" handicap. Having a bunch of animals pissing and shitting all over the ringside area is a fairly automatic ticket to worst-match-ever land.

 

I imagine HHH could have been carried to the best matches of his career v. Mikey and he would have worked well as the third best guy on his team in matches with Furnas/Lafon or Ulf Herman/Brakuss v. Mikey/Spike/Axl.

Triple what? If I was looking for a term to describe the in-ring work of Brakkus, "the world's worst version of Triple H" would be a pretty good one.

 

Literally not sure anyone in the history of that promotion had a more believable, true to life gimmick, as aging white guy with hideous mullet who always dresses in his martial arts digs and claims to be karate specialist/runs “dojo” for children in between binge drinking but somehow can never win in a real fight is something I am pretty confident everyone has run across in their lives at least once.

I've known guys like that; hell, I've taken karate classes from at least two or three of them. (In the same dojo where Jarrett beat up all those little kids on Impact a while back, if you remember that.) But was that really Flynn's intentional gimmick? It's a fun interpretation, but I never saw anything that suggested he was anything but one of those jobbers who is inexplicably given a tough-guy gimmick despite never winning.

[Matt D]

Bossman was really good in 91. Especially his matches with Earthquake.

[JerryvonKramer]

The Roma entry here is borderline absurd Dylan.

[Matt D]

Yeah, for one thing, Young Stallions Matches are all terrible. They're the only team I've ever seen to have bad matches with both Arn and Tully and Eadie and Darsow. And that's when they're up there against GOOD teams. They had a huge run with the Bolsheviks.

[Dylan Waco]

What's absurd about it? What does HHH do better than Roma aside from fuck/carry the bags of people in power?

 

Also Bossman's poem was offensive and wonderful.

[Jingus]

Aside from the obvious tastelessness and stupidity of the whole angle, what really pissed me off was the fake ten-bell salute to the fake dead guy. The ten-bell is the ritual that we enact at wrestling shows to honor those who have passed on. It's essentially a funerary rite. I've done several of those; as in, been the guy actually ringing the bell for someone we knew who is now gone. So to have that sort of very solemn tradition perverted just because some douchebag on the writing team thought that Big Nasty Bastard would be funny is something that I don't find even remotely amusing.

[JerryvonKramer]

What's absurd about it? What does HHH do better than Roma aside from fuck/carry the bags of people in power?

Definitely a better promo.

 

Also, let's pretend for a second that HHH was given Roma's spot in the horsemen. Do you think he'd be spoken of in the terms Roma is now?

 

I just think this is one instance where you are pushing the argument too far. HHH might be average bordering on shit, but he's not THAT shit.

 

Say what you want about HHH but he is a student of the game and he would have known that having a change to run with Arn in the horsemen was a big opportunity to learn. Roma didn't have even that level of awareness. He was just a gym monkey.

 

What's absurd here is that you are saying that HHH is basically the same as a gym monkey. Is that really true? Can you objectively look at that and be happy with it?

 

That is, unless you think Roma is more than just a gym monkey, which is a different conversation altogether. One I wouldn't be against having out.

[Dylan Waco]

What's absurd about it? What does HHH do better than Roma aside from fuck/carry the bags of people in power?

Definitely a better promo.

 

Also, let's pretend for a second that HHH was given Roma's spot in the horsemen. Do you think he'd be spoken of in the terms Roma is now?

 

I just think this is one instance where you are pushing the argument too far. HHH might be average bordering on shit, but he's not THAT shit.

 

Say what you want about HHH but he is a student of the game and he would have known that having a change to run with Arn in the horsemen was a big opportunity to learn. Roma didn't have even that level of awareness. He was just a gym monkey.

 

What's absurd here is that you are saying that HHH is basically the same as a gym monkey. Is that really true? Can you objectively look at that and be happy with it?

 

That is, unless you think Roma is more than just a gym monkey, which is a different conversation altogether. One I wouldn't be against having out.

 

I think you should re-read what I wrote.

 

I specifically noted that the key difference between Roma and HHH is that HHH was more than willing to play the carny game and Roma was either too stupid, unwilling or incapable of doing it. So in fact in my original post I was making a distinction between one guy who was a "student" of carny culture and one guy who just happened to be a guy living around it.

 

If HHH had been inserted in Roma's spot as a Horseman he would have had the good sense, to loan Flair a few thousand or help Arn score ring rats. Had he not done that his level of talent would not have taken him much farther than Roma's level of talent did.

 

As far as better promo goes, Roma on that Horseman DVD was cutting better heel promos than anything I've ever seen from HHH and I say that without a hint of irony

[PeteF3]

I attribute most of the Stallions' suckiness to Jim Powers, who was absolutely frigging awful. No timing, hopelessly generic offense, and he was incapable of selling, which is kind of a major problem when you're supposed to be an underdog babyface. The Stallions managed to drag down the '87 Survivor Series match despite it involving 18 other guys. I'm not a big Roma fan but he did have a pretty gorgeous sunset flip off the top.

[Mad Dog]

I have to defend Goldberg on his ego. Yes, he had an ego but if he had gotten his way more often he would've been less damaged in WCW and the WWE. When it came to his character, Goldberg's instincts were usually correct on what would and wouldn't hurt him.

 

Also, the Goldberg/DDP match is something HHH could never do. That match worked because it was the first time that Goldberg showed some cracks in the armor. You weren't used to seeing him sell and he did such a good job of it that when DDP caught him with the Diamond Cutter it was a holy shit moment because you thought he might actually pin the monster.

 

I also think Goldberg had a far better moveset than HHH. Better finisher and having been in the building, Goldberg's entrance whipped the fans into a frenzy with anticipation. HHH's entrance is just boring as fuck.

[Mad Dog]

Also, Goldberg hitting the Giant with the Jackhammer was a cooler visual than anything HHH has ever done.

[Log]

whereas Trip has the pedigree and a shitty looking sledgehammer strike

It may have come up in this thread, but why the hell would someone choose a weapon as their signature weapon that is damn near impossible to deliver a decent looking worked blow with?

[Bix]

whereas Trip has the pedigree and a shitty looking sledgehammer strike

It may have come up in this thread, but why the hell would someone choose a weapon as their signature weapon that is damn near impossible to deliver a decent looking worked blow with?

 

It's phallic and helps him with his insecurities about his balls shrinking?

[Log]

whereas Trip has the pedigree and a shitty looking sledgehammer strike

It may have come up in this thread, but why the hell would someone choose a weapon as their signature weapon that is damn near impossible to deliver a decent looking worked blow with?

 

It's phallic and helps him with his insecurities about his balls shrinking?

 

He does seem to stroke it a bit before using it.

[Bob Morris]

I attribute most of the Stallions' suckiness to Jim Powers, who was absolutely frigging awful. No timing, hopelessly generic offense, and he was incapable of selling, which is kind of a major problem when you're supposed to be an underdog babyface. The Stallions managed to drag down the '87 Survivor Series match despite it involving 18 other guys. I'm not a big Roma fan but he did have a pretty gorgeous sunset flip off the top.

This is the reason why I didn't bring up Powers, because I figured I'd get the reply: "Come on. HHH is not that bad."

 

Roma was a pretty decent worker who was fine as a lower midcard guy. I don't think he was anything special on interviews, but he was to the point and didn't actively try to bury anybody.

 

He did a decent job during the Power and Glory run. I think being a cocky heel was what he did best, even if it was never going to put him over the top. Of course, had he been a guy who had known how to rub elbows with the right people, who knows what might have happened.

[ohtani's jacket]

Roma's Pretty Wonderful run was solid stuff.

[El-P]

Kennel From Hell was a better match than Michaels/HHH Hell In A Cell, though the Michaels/HHH match may have had higher ratio of bitches.

That cracked me up pretty good.

[Brandon-E]

Dylan, how do Montel Vontavious Porter, Tyler Black, Scotty 2 Hotty and Chuck Palumbo compare to HHH in your opinion?

[flyonthewall2983]

Possibly the most pettiest thing I've ever seen on television was when HHH berated the poor kid who had the Goldberg poster up on his wall on the first season of Tough Enough. Bill may not have been a "student of the business" and did indeed get his spot rather easily, that's because he was the right man at the right time.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Possibly the most pettiest thing I've ever seen on television was when HHH berated the poor kid who had the Goldberg poster up on his wall on the first season of Tough Enough. Bill may not have been a "student of the business" and did indeed get his spot rather easily, that's because he was the right man at the right time.

Wasn't that Tazz who tore the poster down and said, "Wrong company!" ?

[Bix]

Possibly the most pettiest thing I've ever seen on television was when HHH berated the poor kid who had the Goldberg poster up on his wall on the first season of Tough Enough. Bill may not have been a "student of the business" and did indeed get his spot rather easily, that's because he was the right man at the right time.

Wasn't that Tazz who tore the poster down and said, "Wrong company!" ?

 

Yeah. HHH was the one who threatened to potato the really jacked up dude when he sold like he'd never seen pro wrestling before.

[Jingus]

Wasn't that Tazz who tore the poster down and said, "Wrong company!" ?

Yeah. Considering that WCW was still around and still (allegedly) competition, I don't see the problem with that.

[flyonthewall2983]

But I think in one of the extended scenes on the DVD when HHH comes into the ring, he talks to the guy about Goldberg. I know that much, and it did seem quite petty. Someone help me out on this lol.

[JerryvonKramer]

Just watched a DX skit parodying the McMahons from around 2006.

 

I've never hated a group more in all my life than DX. Just so embarrassing, so unfunny, so shit. HATE.

 

The comments on youtube after it calling it "the funniest RAW segment ever" almost made me throw up in my own mouth.

 

Shawn and HHH even manage to make the awesome "Stand Back" clip unfunny. I'd go as far as to say that those two in DX mode are my two least favourite characters in wrestling PERIOD. Terrible, terrible stuff.