Gregor Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 What are the best HHH matches? The ones that were most liked at the time they happened (I think) were the ladder match, a bunch of his 2000 PPV matches, the 2001 Austin match, and the 2003 RAW match with Michaels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yes.I don't think so. Savannah Jack died recently and in Dave's Observer obit, he says Savannah Jack's career ended due to heart problems in 1987. He does not mention the Snowman at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Dylan may have recently watched enough of these guys to give them a try here: J.T. Southern Soldat Ustinov The Russian Brute Tommy Jammer Mitch Snow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yes.I don't think so. Savannah Jack died recently and in Dave's Observer obit, he says Savannah Jack's career ended due to heart problems in 1987. He does not mention the Snowman at all. I'm pretty sure he mentioned him as The Snowman in the original coverage on the web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 He mentions Snowman in the bio, but while listing the African American babyfaces Watts tried (and failed) to push as the top guy after JYD left: Like every promoter who found something that worked, Watts spent the next several years looking for a replacement, an African-American superstar that would draw in his key markets. Watts tried a propaganda campaign of telling his audience that even though JYD had beaten Butch Reed, his big rival, constantly, that JYD couldn't handle the pressure of Reed never giving up and ran from the territory. So the first thing he did was bring in former Canadian Football League All-Star George Welles, re-christened as Master Gee, to beat Reed in a minute, with the idea this new superstar vanquished the guy JYD could never finish. That quickly failed as Welles had developed personal problems by that point in his life and didn't get over. Turning Reed, one of the best wrestlers in the business at the time, was the next idea. Reed was very good, and popular, but he never got over like JYD and soon he and Watts were at odds with each other. Next came The Snowman, the former Eddie Crawford, a muscled-up Memphis area performer who cut jive promos like JYD, had the thick muscular physique of a young JYD, and while he sucked in the ring, Watts didn't see that as a major handicap, because so did JYD. Plus, Watts, Jim Ross and booker Ken Mantell came up with the golden idea. Snowman would be managed and backed by Muhammad Ali, the most iconic athlete in the world. Snowman came in, powerslamming everyone on television in one minute, the same way JYD did. Unfortunately, this was 1985 and JYD had only left a year earlier and recreating an iconic figure with a duplicate in wrestling that soon almost never works. He was given a monster push, just like JYD, pinning heels like Steve Williams and Jake Roberts who totally resented it. They had already made a deal with Ali, to do interviews pushing him, leading to Ali being in Snowman's corner at the Superdome, which they expected would draw 30,000 fans, but ended up only doing about one-third that number. After another go with Reed and an attempt with Iceman King Parsons yielded similar results, Russell got the call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just Googled and yeah, The Snowman is Eddie Crawford, and Savannah Jack is Teddy Russell. Not the same person. I stand corrected. I must have mis-read whatever was posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just Googled and yeah, The Snowman is Eddie Crawford, and Savannah Jack is Teddy Russell. Not the same person. I stand corrected. I must have mis-read whatever was posted. Racist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 And oddly enough, I have watched most of the Mid South footage that exists and I don't think I've ever seen The Snowman on Mid South TV, or heard him mentioned, or heard Muhammad Ali mentioned. It clearly happened, but this is all new to me. When Foley talked about Jake no-selling Ali in Mid South, I could never figure out the time period, but figured it had to be before the mid 80s when more footage was available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Just Googled and yeah, The Snowman is Eddie Crawford, and Savannah Jack is Teddy Russell. Not the same person. I stand corrected. I must have mis-read whatever was posted. Racist My cover is blown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 So going back to Dylan's post ... yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Savannah Jack match either. Is it possible that the level of push Snowman and Jack both received to replace JYD is a little bit of revisionist history? When I think about the most pushed guys in 1985/1986, I think of DiBiase, Murdoch, Terry Taylor, Dr. Death, Eddie Gilbert and the Freebirds. Surely, if Watts was trying to recreate JYD, he'd make a bigger go of it, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 So going back to Dylan's post ... yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Savannah Jack match either. His TV title win on UWF TV over Buddy Roberts was the first time I ever saw him. I'm surprised you never ran across him in that time frame of UWF TV as I would ahve assumed it was the most commonly seen Mid-South area stuff before video trading was popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 You know what, I'll go there. Davey Richards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 So going back to Dylan's post ... yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Savannah Jack match either. Is it possible that the level of push Snowman and Jack both received to replace JYD is a little bit of revisionist history? When I think about the most pushed guys in 1985/1986, I think of DiBiase, Murdoch, Terry Taylor, Dr. Death, Eddie Gilbert and the Freebirds. Surely, if Watts was trying to recreate JYD, he'd make a bigger go of it, right? Surprised you left out Butch Reed.... Racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 So going back to Dylan's post ... yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Savannah Jack match either. Is it possible that the level of push Snowman and Jack both received to replace JYD is a little bit of revisionist history? When I think about the most pushed guys in 1985/1986, I think of DiBiase, Murdoch, Terry Taylor, Dr. Death, Eddie Gilbert and the Freebirds. Surely, if Watts was trying to recreate JYD, he'd make a bigger go of it, right? Surprised you left out Butch Reed.... Racist. And I think the whole "replace JYD "thing is true, but Watts wasn't going to just put the belt on his "newest" black star. He probably wanted to get a guy over first and it just wasn't happening with Wells, Jack, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Jacques Rougeau Raymond Rougeau I am nowhere near as high on the Rougeau's as some, but they are a team I think is overrated but still good. HHH is a guy I think is overrated and not really good, aside from random moments here or there. Jacques always struck me as the lesser athlete, but maybe he was just working his gimmick to perfection. He was great at hamming it up and while I thought it got over the top at times, it generally worked. Rougeau's also had some of the all time catchy theme songs in wrestling history, whereas I have always found Trips themes to be really grating and that is coming from a Motorhead fan. I would like to see some pre-WWF work from both guys, but Jacques was really great as the guy riding on the coattails of Oulette in the Quebeckers, so I have no problem putting him ahead of HHH. Ray had that cool spinning back kick, but in the absence of more meat I will go with HHH on account of lacking evidence. Brian Blair I would take Brunzell over HHH by a mile but that's not the question. I remember Blair being a passable guy, maybe even a quality hand, who never really did shit. In a just World that sentence would be the one we would use to describe HHH's peak years, but he got chances. Blair didn't. HHH wins. EZ Money I have seen almost no EZ Money indy run, assuming it exist in large number. I am trying to remember if I have commented on him already on this thread. Anyhow I liked Hot Commodity, but Hamrick was really the guy who should have been working and he was the second. I can forgive the same sin of the original DX, because Rude was injured, but still it's distracting to see Hamrick (and Rude) at ringside knowing they would be better than the guys in the ring. Having said that, Money was a fun spot machine and the act was finer tuned than a lot of the ECW acts from the period. I really liked his finisher where he just walked away from a suplex sort of flopping the person down wildly. I also thought he was really good in his brief WCW run. Honestly there is not enough to put him above HHH, but he's a guy who almost certainly would have been better had he stayed around somewhere. Shinzei Shinzaki I have a fuck ton of Minchinoku Pro I need to watch and one day I'm going to watch all the FMW I can as well. In the past I always liked Shinzaki more than other smart fans. Enjoyed watching him do highspots, thought the monk gimmick was kind of cool, thought he was fun in brawls, et. The Bret matches were not great, but were very good and I remember liking the Barry Horowitz stuff also. I just cannot envision HHH doing anything compelling with Horowitz and I figure he would have sucked the life out of Bret. Maxx Payne Extra points for using the Fujiwara armbar as a finisher. Additional points for being part of the awesome matches with Foley v. Nasty Boys, including the spot where he almost murdered Knobbs with a suplex. Payne probably should have had a career at least as good as Balls Mahoney, but instead he disappeared. For phony wrestling rockers, he was better than Van Hammer and JT Southern which counts for something. I suspect I could justify putting him above HHH with enough footage, but until that footage comes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Payne had a really good match with Vader before he disappeared in 94. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 So going back to Dylan's post ... yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a Savannah Jack match either. Is it possible that the level of push Snowman and Jack both received to replace JYD is a little bit of revisionist history? When I think about the most pushed guys in 1985/1986, I think of DiBiase, Murdoch, Terry Taylor, Dr. Death, Eddie Gilbert and the Freebirds. Surely, if Watts was trying to recreate JYD, he'd make a bigger go of it, right? Surprised you left out Butch Reed.... Racist. And I think the whole "replace JYD "thing is true, but Watts wasn't going to just put the belt on his "newest" black star. He probably wanted to get a guy over first and it just wasn't happening with Wells, Jack, etc. They pushed Master G huge. That much I can tell you from having watched the TV. And in some ways they pushed Snowman even higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Brian Blair I would take Brunzell over HHH by a mile but that's not the question. I remember Blair being a passable guy, maybe even a quality hand, who never really did shit. In a just World that sentence would be the one we would use to describe HHH's peak years, but he got chances. Blair didn't. HHH wins. He main evented in Florida though, for a while too, right? at least a half a year? You think that'd be good comparison fodder. Even if he feuded with Jesse Barr most of that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Bob Armstrong The Bullet is another one of those Rich/Wahoo types where we don't have as much of his career to judge by as you would like, but it is pretty much impossible to argue HHH is better than him (or them). Actually we can limit ourselves to far past his prime SMW commissioner era Armstrong and on that alone it would be virtually impossible to make a case for HHH. As Loss has correctly noted, not position was ever better suited for a wrestler than Bob Armstrong as commissioner of SMW. He felt natural in that role, delivered some absolutely brilliant promos and when called to battle always delivered. He was capable of getting over the seriousness of angles and laughing at the silliness of certain situations without compromising his characters integrity or making anything seem out of place or unnatural. I know HHH is new to that role, but comparing his run as authority figure to Armstrong's is just comical. Even comparing Armstrong role as "special occasion primarily gimmick match worker" to much closer to physical prime HHH's role as "special occasion primarily gimmick match worker" I see no argument for HHH. As with Buck and the boombox, Armstrong was fighting for his kids and the honor of his promotion. He was vulnerable AND tough. The baseball bat was a more credible and serious looking weapon in his hands than the sledgehammer in Trips hands. HHH has never been good about presenting himself as vulnerable and his toughness has always seemed really forced. HHH can have good matches in that setting, but they never feel like wars of attrition or blood feuds, at least not because of anything he does in the match. Armstrong as semi-unjustly accused perpetrator of nepotism dealing with accusations of bias from Cornette is just a much more compelling figure than HHH as justly accused beneficiary of nepotism dealing with accusations of bias from geeks like us. Steven Casey/Dane The implications of this comparison are that Chaz is to Shawn Michaels as Casey/Dane is to HHH. I guess Alexis would be Stephanie but then that would make Chaz Test or maybe Randy Savage and I’m not as comfortable with that. Actually complexity of relationship involving Chaz/Dane and Alexis may make her a better comp to Vince now that I think about it. Anyhow I actually rewatched the Bungee match today and was really impressed with the crazed stiffness of Dane’s stomps. I don’t think I’ve ever seen HHH throw stomps like that. It is possible that Scott Casey is a better comp to Trip, and Dane is a better comp to Shane, since I can’t envision Hunter taking crazy Bungee bump that Dane did. Dane was a good bumper, but really stiff and had very good execution for a guy who was often working half trained rednecks who were likely being paid in concessions. If Cornette had actually wanted to replace Stan Lane after he bolted, Dane would have actually been a tighter working version of Lane, albeit with a shittier look and likely to get winded after the second or third criss cross spot. I actually think Dane might have been slightly more talented than HHH, but he was fucking Alexis, not Stephanie McMahon. DJ Peterson Peterson and Trooper were a better tag unit than Hunter and Shawn. Peterson also worked as far more compelling challenger to heel Curt Hennig in t.v. match than HHH has ever looked as babyface challenger to any champ during any match. So on those two points of comparison I think Peterson safely wins. Big problem with Peterson is that he didn't have a really lengthy run. I don't remember his WWF stint, but I assume he had good matches with Horowitz and maybe Tim Horner if the timing was right. He was a cheesy babyface in an era where cheesy babyfaces worked, but he was too late to make real money off of it. I am not sure you can really say the generic version of Brad Armstrong is “better” than HHH, but I struggle to think of things he did that were obviously worse. Ricky Rice Rice was a one move kind of man. Honestly the one move Rice had was really great and if we were isolating the single best things each guy did and comparing them, there is nothing HHH does half as well as Rice executes a dropkick. I have seen Rice have really good performances built around that dropkick – and I have seen him crash and burn horribly. I actually think Rice could have turned out pretty good, but one of my biggest criticisms of HHH is that he has no clue how to fill up time and that is something that applies to Rice even moreso. Al Madril I am not a fan of Al Madril but I recently watched the angle where he busted up Kerry’s non-existent foot with a crutch and I am pretty sure I liked him a lot in one of those tags from the Texas Set. I mean I think HHH was better than him. But maybe Madril isn’t as bad as I had previously thought. Buck Robley I would be tempted to rate Robley above HHH purely on the strength of his delusional rants on Gary Cubeta’s old show, which were far more interesting than any rants of comparable length ever given by HHH. Then there is the shirt which is better than any piece of gear HHH has ever worn. As a wrestler Robley worked and looked the part. He was a sloppy bum, a mean old shit and a cranky bastard. He totally worked as Ueda’s partner or a guy working Porkchop Cash on 2005 indy shows in rural Mississippi. HHH was a blue blood patrician who really felt forced in that role, despite a look that was accommodating – sadly this was probably his most convincing role. HHH was probably more polished, but Robley wasn’t supposed to be polished. Robley is not my favorite wrestler of his type – that would be Bobby Bass. But it is a type of wrestler that I think has great charm and a real authenticity to it. I can’t think of a wrestler on Earth less charming and authentic than HHH. Mark Starr This is an interesting comparison because you basically are comparing a guy with facial hair/physical aesthetics of Village People fan to guy who was working a modified Village People gimmick. I was always a big fan of Men At Work and pre-MAW Starr, but I struggle to think of enough good performances v. Cuban Connection on Worldwide to make a compelling case. Certainly he could put a more compelling heat section together, but that could be said of ninety percent of heels in wrestling history. Maybe a review of WCW B shows would reveal enough evidence to put Mark over the top, but he’s not the guy with last name of Starr I would confidently rate about HHH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Buck Robley I would be tempted to rate Robley above HHH purely on the strength of his delusional rants on Gary Cubeta’s old show, which were far more interesting than any rants of comparable length ever given by HHH. Then there is the shirt which is better than any piece of gear HHH has ever worn. As a wrestler Robley worked and looked the part. He was a sloppy bum, a mean old shit and a cranky bastard. He totally worked as Ueda’s partner or a guy working Porkchop Cash on 2005 indy shows in rural Mississippi. HHH was a blue blood patrician who really felt forced in that role, despite a look that was accommodating – sadly this was probably his most convincing role. HHH was probably more polished, but Robley wasn’t supposed to be polished. Robley is not my favorite wrestler of his type – that would be Bobby Bass. But it is a type of wrestler that I think has great charm and a real authenticity to it. I can’t think of a wrestler on Earth less charming and authentic than HHH. This is where not watching the Mid South really hurts your evaluations because the first thing that would come out of your mouth is "Robley vs. One Man Gang". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Has there ever been anyone more "scuzzy" than Buck Robley? He's the very definition of sleazy squalor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Dutch Mantell is pretty scuzzy himself, but he's so articulate and clever that every time he talks, he's humanized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB8 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Ueda and Robley are pretty much the greatest Scuzzy Looking Bastards tag team I've ever seen. Probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Has there ever been anyone more "scuzzy" than Buck Robley? He's the very definition of sleazy squalor. Bobby Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 Add in Eddie Edwards when you do Richards. Not as a team: Eddie's had more than enough singles to warrant a rating. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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