Comparing men and women as wrestlers

[Dooley]

This should be the take-away for the entire thread. Personal likes and dislikes are just that. Not liking women's wrestling sometimes just means you don't like women's wrestling. It has nothing to do with "psychosexual hang-ups" or any of the other nonsense flying around this thread.

Just to be clear, what I meant that by that is that joshi encompasses pretty much every style imaginable, so if you can't find at least some stuff that you like, there might be some deeper issues at work.

 

This reminds me of the logic used to attempt to make me appreciate the "Lord of the Rings" movies. I went and saw the first one with friends of mine that enjoyed the books. I hated it, thought it was ridiculous and even nodded off in the middle. Needless to say, I didn't spend the money to watch the sequels. But people kept saying to me how much I should see the sequels regardless. My question was always "are they anything like the first one?" "well yeah, but *insert long-winded explanation here*."

 

Why would I want to sit through stuff I know I don't enjoy just to find something I *might* enjoy? Why can't I just spend that time watching something I know I *do* enjoy? Does that make me prejudiced against elves? Or does it just mean that my tastes differed from my friends' tastes in that instance?

[NintendoLogic]

This reminds me of the logic used to attempt to make me appreciate the "Lord of the Rings" movies. I went and saw the first one with friends of mine that enjoyed the books. I hated it, thought it was ridiculous and even nodded off in the middle. Needless to say, I didn't spend the money to watch the sequels. But people kept saying to me how much I should see the sequels regardless. My question was always "are they anything like the first one?" "well yeah, but *insert long-winded explanation here*."

I'd say it's more like not wanting to see The Dark Knight because Batman & Robin sucked. I agree that Toyota-style sprint matches are virtually unwatchable. But Hokuto/Kandori is about as far removed from that as you can get. It's also a legit contender for greatest match of all time. I think it'd be a shame if someone didn't give it a chance because of preconceived notions of what women's wrestling is like.

 

Why would I want to sit through stuff I know I don't enjoy just to find something I *might* enjoy? Why can't I just spend that time watching something I know I *do* enjoy? Does that make me prejudiced against elves? Or does it just mean that my tastes differed from my friends' tastes in that instance?

I guess I just have a different perspective. For me, sitting through a wrestling match, even a bad one, isn't much of a chore. If a match sucks, so what? It's not like you ever have to watch it again. Since everything's on Youtube now, you haven't lost anything but 20 or so minutes of your time. And if a match is great, you have a new source of enjoyment.

[El-P]

I don't want to watch chick flicks.

What do you defies as a chick flick anyway ? A movie directed by a woman who deals with feminine issues ? Is joshi the "chick flick" version of male wrestling ? Sorry, but none of this makes any sense to me.

 

The point was it is perfectly acceptable to avoid something that is critically acclaimed. It's like Twilight fans being pissed off aout people not wanting to watch their vampire movie.

Twilight movies suck. And no, it's not the same thing at all. It's dissmissing an entire genre basing your reasonning on gender. It's like I said : I don't want to hear female singers because I don't like the way female sings. Which doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

Except that in the only women's wrestling worth watching (joshi) the style has as much to do with gender as any other factor.

Toyota vs Kyoko doesn't look like an Oz vs Kansai brawl, which doens't look like a LCO workrate bloodbath, which doesn't look like a Yoshida vs Fukawa matwork clinic, which really doesn't look like Chiggy vs Dump, which barely looks like Bull Nakano vs Monster Ripper. There are tons of different styles in joshi. Technical, shoot-styly, go-go-go, storytelling, brawling, stiffness oriented. So, dismissing everything just doesn't work.

[Log]

To flip it around...would it be sexist to only want to watch women wrestle?

[Loss]

Depends on who is doing the watching. I don't think teenage girls in Tokyo in the 80s are actively sexist necessarily, but hardcore fans who watch wrestling the way we do ... yeah, probably. Sexist and maybe some other problems there too.

[Childs]

Dismissing all Joshi as sprints is silly, though.

This is unquestionably true, and yet, I have to admit that's how I have joshi classifed in my wrestling brain. So I'm less open to a joshi match that might be good than I would be to pimped matches in most other genres. You almost have to start out by convincing me that the match won't fall into my preconceived notions of what sucks about joshi. That's unlikely to change at this point, but yeah, sexism isn't at the root of my bias.

 

Have you watched Kansai/Kong yet? Main event slugfest with a two-year title chase finally being realized. It's not my favorite Joshi match of the year, but knowing what you like, I think it's the one you are most likely to like.

 

Yeah, I watched it. It's a great match, certainly up my alley stylewise.

 

I've probably overstated my aversion to Joshi a little bit; there are at least 15 or 20 matches I'd unreservedly call great. Hokuto/Kandori, for example, is about as good as it gets.

 

It's just that I have been disappointed by a lot of highly touted '90s Joshi matches, and I've tended to be disappointed for the same reasons. So that colors the way I look at the whole genre and makes me less apt to appreciate the diversity touted by Joshi advocates.

 

Joshi is something I wanted to like, but if the experience doesn't live up to the hope, that's ultimately hard to overcome.

 

Will mentioned the '80s project. I was excited to watch the Joshi discs after reading some of OJ's posts on the unearthed treasures from that decade. But after about 10 discs, I just didn't have any appetite for it. Some of the matches were really good. There was diversity of style. Dump was an indelible character. But I just got sick of it in a way I never did with All Japan or New Japan or early '80s Portland. And ultimately, I don't want my hobby to be an exercise in grim determination.

[S.L.L.]

Two things:

 

1. The discussion of whether or not female athlete X could effectively compete against male athlete Y in legitimate spot Z completely misses the point, as wrestling is fake, and as Matt D so eloquently pointed out, it is about symbolism and perception. Wrestling taught us that guys with bodybuilder physiques, guys with the kind of musculature that's visually impressive but doesn't have much athletic functionality, can excel in wrestling. Wrestling has taught us that the morbidly obese are dangerous powerhouses who can excel in wrestling. Wrestling has taught us that people decades past their physical primes can excel in wrestling. I wouldn't necessarily advocate wrestling promotions going mixed-gender for the most part and for a number of reasons. But if Chun-Li can hang with the rest of the World Warriors, an equivalent figure doing the same in wrestling doesn't seem laughable to me.

 

2. Back when I was in high school, I was watching my recently-arrived copy of Schneider Comp #9 with a friend of mine whose wrestling fandom was a bit more Big Two-centric. The Shinobu Kandori/Bull Nakano chain match came up and, well, he wasn't quite sure how to react to it. Talking about it with our friends at lunch some time later, his words were something along the lines of "don't get me wrong, it was an amazing match...but that shit was messed up".

 

Point is - and I'm kinda surprised we've gone five pages into this thread without bringing this up - there are more than a few people out there who recognize the talent of certain joshi workers, but who don't like to watch it simply because violence against women, even when perpetrated by other women, makes them uncomfortable. And yeah, I guess there is a chauvinistic element to that, but it's one I don't think can be as easily dismissed as others.

[El-P]

Point is - and I'm kinda surprised we've gone five pages into this thread without bringing this up - there are more than a few people out there who recognize the talent of certain joshi workers, but who don't like to watch it simply because violence against women, even when perpetrated by other women, makes them uncomfortable. And yeah, I guess there is a chauvinistic element to that, but it's one I don't think can be as easily dismissed as others.

I think most people here realize that but it's a moot point to me because a woman beating up another woman is not "violence against women", which is an expression that really encompass "men's violence toward women". I understand that some people can feel uneasy with the idea of women beating up each other bloody (in that case), but yeah, it is somewhat of a chauvinistic deal like you say as it goes back to the idea of women as some kind of fragile beings that are not supposed to do stuff like this. I'm sure Chiggy would have some interesting stuff to say about that.

[Loss]

I have no objection to people who can't get past that. I don't feel the same way, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with seeing it that way. My original point was not that any discomfort is unwarranted, but more that you can compare match quality and wrestlers who are men and women to each other and easily have "Which match/wrestler is better?" debates.

[jdw]

This reminds me of the logic used to attempt to make me appreciate the "Lord of the Rings" movies. I went and saw the first one with friends of mine that enjoyed the books. I hated it, thought it was ridiculous and even nodded off in the middle. Needless to say, I didn't spend the money to watch the sequels. But people kept saying to me how much I should see the sequels regardless. My question was always "are they anything like the first one?" "well yeah, but *insert long-winded explanation here*."

I enjoyed the books since I was a teenager. I hated the movies.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Two things:

 

1. The discussion of whether or not female athlete X could effectively compete against male athlete Y in legitimate spot Z completely misses the point, as wrestling is fake, and as Matt D so eloquently pointed out, it is about symbolism and perception. Wrestling taught us that guys with bodybuilder physiques, guys with the kind of musculature that's visually impressive but doesn't have much athletic functionality, can excel in wrestling. Wrestling has taught us that the morbidly obese are dangerous powerhouses who can excel in wrestling. Wrestling has taught us that people decades past their physical primes can excel in wrestling. I wouldn't necessarily advocate wrestling promotions going mixed-gender for the most part and for a number of reasons. But if Chun-Li can hang with the rest of the World Warriors, an equivalent figure doing the same in wrestling doesn't seem laughable to me.

Chun-Li can shoot fireballs from her hands and do a hundred kicks in less than a second. Comparisons to video games and comic books are somewhat inapt because wrestlers don't inhabit a world where people are capable of superhuman feats. Yes, Undertaker and Kane can summon fire and lightning, but they don't do it in matches.

 

2. Back when I was in high school, I was watching my recently-arrived copy of Schneider Comp #9 with a friend of mine whose wrestling fandom was a bit more Big Two-centric. The Shinobu Kandori/Bull Nakano chain match came up and, well, he wasn't quite sure how to react to it. Talking about it with our friends at lunch some time later, his words were something along the lines of "don't get me wrong, it was an amazing match...but that shit was messed up".

 

Point is - and I'm kinda surprised we've gone five pages into this thread without bringing this up - there are more than a few people out there who recognize the talent of certain joshi workers, but who don't like to watch it simply because violence against women, even when perpetrated by other women, makes them uncomfortable. And yeah, I guess there is a chauvinistic element to that, but it's one I don't think can be as easily dismissed as others.

I can kind of get this since that's how I feel about deathmatch wrestling. I simply don't enjoy watching that level of violence. On a certain level, I can recognize that Kudo/Toyoda is a great match. But I can't really endorse something that makes me physically ill when I watch it.

[S.L.L.]

I have no objection to people who can't get past that. I don't feel the same way, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with seeing it that way. My original point was not that any discomfort is unwarranted, but more that you can compare match quality and wrestlers who are men and women to each other and easily have "Which match/wrestler is better?" debates.

Then the thread needs to be renamed, because that's not the question it's asking.

 

Chun-Li can shoot fireballs from her hands and do a hundred kicks in less than a second. Comparisons to video games and comic books are somewhat inapt because wrestlers don't inhabit a world where people are capable of superhuman feats. Yes, Undertaker and Kane can summon fire and lightning, but they don't do it in matches.

Counterpoint: yes they do. If with the comparatively limited number of people who can throw fireballs, let's not pretend that the style of combat we see on a regular basis in pro wrestling is even remotely realistic outside of some of your worked shoot feds. The Undertaker and Kane don't summon lightning and thunder in their matches, but they do forcefully drop people on the tops of their heads, with all of their body weight coming down on top of them, without killing them, crippling them, or even really injuring them. Forget what Taker and Kane can do. LOSING to Taker or Kane and simply being able to walk away from it under your own power is a superhuman feat.

[Loss]

Changed the thread to something less ... trollish, as S.L.L. maketh a valid point.

[Victator]

Counterpoint: yes they do. If with the comparatively limited number of people who can throw fireballs, let's not pretend that the style of combat we see on a regular basis in pro wrestling is even remotely realistic outside of some of your worked shoot feds. The Undertaker and Kane don't summon lightning and thunder in their matches, but they do forcefully drop people on the tops of their heads, with all of their body weight coming down on top of them, without killing them, crippling them, or even really injuring them. Forget what Taker and Kane can do. LOSING to Taker or Kane and simply being able to walk away from it under your own power is a superhuman feat.

The problem would be in how the matches were worked. Take the Sara Del Rey vs Claudio Castagnoli match for example. That match had a terrible psychology to it. Claudio has a huge size difference and it is never acknowledged.

 

She dominates the match from the start and does not use cunning or finesse. She just runs over him like she is Big Van Vader, and that is just bad wrestling. Even a guy like Taz, would work from the bottom when facing a much larger opponent.

 

You could not have Beth Phoenix wrestle Ted Dibiase Jr and have Beth toss around Dibiase like she does other women. It would not work, no matter how well you train the audience.

 

Now Kharma you could mix up with men and have it be credible. But you would have to keep her away from the larger men and acknowledge that she can't fully bulldoze over them.

 

That is the reason long term, that things like Jacqueline in WCW failed and Chyna failed as Intercontinental champion.

[Jingus]

Chyna failed as Intercontinental champion.

Becoming massively over and routinely receiving some of the biggest pops of the night counts as "failing"? It's bullshit that the audience won't believe a woman beating up a guy, because they obviously have bought it on many occasions.

[JerryvonKramer]

Reckon Baby Doll could have kicked the shit out of 90% of the roster in the mid-80s. That woman is massive.

[Loss]

This conversation is taking place on two levels.

 

"Women can't beat men in shoots" is one. "Women as performers can be compared to men as performers" is the other.

 

On the first point, I agree and on the second point, I agree. The points are completely unrelated to each other, though.

[Victator]

Chyna failed as Intercontinental champion.

Becoming massively over and routinely receiving some of the biggest pops of the night counts as "failing"? It's bullshit that the audience won't believe a woman beating up a guy, because they obviously have bought it on many occasions.

 

You obviously missed them booing the shit out of her against Jericho and very quickly shoving her back into the role of glorified valet who occasionally wrestles.

 

She failed as Intercontinental Champion. People did not buy her act at all by herself. She only worked as a sidekick. Her last year she was only over because of Eddy.

[Jingus]

You obviously missed them booing the shit out of her against Jericho and very quickly shoving her back into the role of glorified valet who occasionally wrestles.

How often? I only recall that happening once or twice, in their months of feuding. And at the time, it was easy to cheer Jericho; he was doing his fiery, funny, smart-mouthed Conspiracy Victim routine which often made him a tweener anyway. The crowd certainly hailed Chyna as a conquering hero every time she was in there against Jarrett.

 

She failed as Intercontinental Champion. People did not buy her act at all by herself. She only worked as a sidekick. Her last year she was only over because of Eddy.

And you base all this on... what?

[Matt D]

Would I undo any possible good being done in this note by suggesting people were cheering the Kat as Gabrielle to Chyna's Xena?

[Victator]

And you base all this on... what?

A keen eye for observation. The fact that once the Jericho feud ended she was never regularly wrestled men again. That the next title she won was the Women's Title. That she clearly contributed nothing to Eddy's Latino Heat act?

 

 

How often? I only recall that happening once or twice, in their months of feuding. And at the time, it was easy to cheer Jericho; he was doing his fiery, funny, smart-mouthed Conspiracy Victim routine which often made him a tweener anyway. The crowd certainly hailed Chyna as a conquering hero every time she was in there against Jarrett.

Often enough they went to great extremes to make Jericho clearly the heel. Like having him torture Chyna with a hammer on a episode of Smackdown.

 

The fact it did not happen to Jarrett is a testament to the work he did. Also the fact it was a specially crafted feud for Chyna. With Jarrett spending months beating up women.

[El-P]

Chyna sucked as a worker. She was rotten. Which might also explain why it didn't worked as well as it should have.

[Victator]

That is a very important point in this. Her offense looked like absolute shit and guys looked terrible selling it like death. There is also the fact she hated to sell for anyone, so her matches ended up shattering the illusion of wrestling.

 

I would like to see them experiment with putting Kharma against men, since everything she does looks great. Plus she is big enough, you can buy her fighting evenly with most men. Or went through with that idea of putting Shantelle Taylor under a mask and pretending to be a man.

[rzombie1988]

I want to say that alot of the AJW girls during the peak recruiting years could probably compete with average height men. Girls like Toyota, Mita and Shimoda are quite tall. Mita appears to be almost 6 feet and she really dwarfed me in person. Say what you will, but I'd take my chances elsewhere. And let me tell you, after meeting Chigusa in person, she would be one of the last people I would ever test.

 

I think women are equal with men when it comes overall wrestling characteristics and maybe even a bit above. Women have a wider range of looks, charisma, emotions and color that men don't have. They are also a little more flexible and due to most of them being smaller, they can do more athletic stuff. My top matches of all time also have women in them and those matches are above men's.

[NintendoLogic]

This conversation is taking place on two levels.

 

"Women can't beat men in shoots" is one. "Women as performers can be compared to men as performers" is the other.

 

On the first point, I agree and on the second point, I agree. The points are completely unrelated to each other, though.

Exactly this. Akira Hokuto is clearly a better wrestler than The Great Khali, but I wouldn't book her to beat him in a match.