Mania as it happens.

[jdw]

The early match stuff was great.

No, it was really boring as fuck in a Wrestlemania Stadium Show setting.

 

Would have been perfectly fine on a PPV in 2-3 months. On this card, in this setting, infront of these fans... it was boring.

 

Which again strikes me as Punk and Jericho getting lost in the punch of what works for *them* and their circle of fans that is a far smaller % of those in the building and are watching at home *this event*.

 

The Artist is quite a fun movie. It works for an audience that appreciates it.

 

Drop it onto opening night of Twilight with 4000 theaters packed with Twilight fans and... you'll have a % of fans who enjoy it because they like both Twilight and The Artist. You'll also have a vastly larger % that are bored as fuck.

 

That was Jericho-Punk: people wanted to see the two stop jerking off in the ring to their own fantasies and start Doing Shit. When did they eventually get heat? When they were Doing Shit.

 

Gotta know your real audience, not just the one in your head or you're narrower circle of fans. Especially when you're effectively the #3 match on the card, and of those top three the only one filled with two guys who are going to involved in carrying the week-to-week of the promotion after Mania.

 

John

[jdw]

I think in a vacuum it's going to come off much better in a rewatch. I think it's also going to come off fine if you were to watch the build leading up to it and then watch the match.

I got the brother/father/sister stuff. I frankly didn't give a shit about it in the parts of the build up that I watched: I fucking HATE that type of bullshit "I'm shooting now!" storyline. The "gift" from Ace was boring to me. These two goofballs started a storyline around comparing workrate cocks on being the World's Best. Neither one of them looked like it in that match. To the fans watching the show, they got blown off the stage by a pair of broken down guys, someone whose had one match in more than half a decade, and someone that half the fans in the WWE want to boo out of the building. Punk-Jericho was the equiv of Mark Sanchez claiming to be a Franchise QB only to see his team sign Tim Tebow: his own team thinks a non-franchise QB is an interesting potential alternative.

 

In terms of vacuum, we watch Punk-Cena from MitB earlier in the day. Last year's MOTY wasn't terribly compelling/interesting nearly a year removed from Punk's "I'm shooting now!" mic spot.

 

In turn, we watched Hansen & Tenryu vs Baba & Kimura from the 1989 RWTL that people were creaming over themselves on the DVDVR. And while there were stretches where Kimura's headbutt centric offense had Hoback and Yohe wondering why I put it in, just about every time they'd say something about it, someone in the match would do something that would get a "wow!" or a "damn!" out of them. Talk about a vacuum match since they weren't watching the rest of the 80s set or the '89 RWTL. It was just some guys beating the shit out if each other, working heat spots, and Doing Shit.

 

Punk-Jericho didn't work on that level for them, nor with the other two who watched the PPV with us.

 

 

John

[El-P]

The Artist is quite a fun movie. It works for an audience that appreciates it.

 

Drop it onto opening night of Twilight with 4000 theaters packed with Twilight fans and... you'll have a % of fans who enjoy it because they like both Twilight and The Artist. You'll also have a vastly larger % that are bored as fuck and want to see the two stop jerking off in the ring to their own fantasies and start Doing Shit. When did they eventually get heat? When they were Doing Shit.

Well, I'm not sure the comparison works the way you want there. The fact is, The Artist is a very good movie, while Twilight is mostly adolescent junk. So, basically, the Twilight crowd went apeshit for the Taker vs HHH match which was pretty much terrible on all account and hilariously bad when you get to see the acting up close, and then sat on their hands for the very good Jericho vs CM Punk match, which was the Artist of the night.

Plus it's not like the Artist is a niche arthouse movie, it got mainstream success here, and shitload of press when it was released (I'm talking way before the triumph with prizes). Jericho and CM Punk didn't exactly work a workrate clinic as a wink-wink toward Roh fans, it was just a really good wrestling match, and the setting doesn't change that. Of course it would have gotten over much better in a smaller place without having to go after the draining Taker vs HHH stuff, and before the Rock vs Cena match everyone was dying to see by this time, but saying CM Punk and Jericho jerked off for workrate fans seems quite unfair to me, as you also have to take the context in account. I didn't get that feeling at all from watching the match.

 

On a side note, I doubt it made its way to the US, but the joke about The Artist success at the Academy Award was that "The Americans really like us French people mostly when we shut the fuck up.".

[jdw]

The setting does change that. Unless we're thinking Taker-Trip and Cena-Rock is going to be on the June/July PPVs.

 

We watched one of the MX vs R'n'R matches from Philly that was on the Cornette DVD... the first title defense in Philly after the won the title.

 

It was a handheld... good for a handheld but still missing some of the aspects of the work in the match, such as being fully able to see all the elements that went into several of the Distraction Spots. There also wasn't heated audio because it was a handheld. About as close to a vacuum as you can get, since you're not even seeing all those great TBS promos that Corny was cutting on Ricky and Robert and the R'n'R's training bra wearing fanbase. And you could clearly tell it was their Fall Out Of Bed Match rather than them having a extra big setting / stip where they wanted to pull out all the stops.

 

Still...

 

The six of them (including the Ref) worked circles around what Punk and Jericho did. And you could watch the crowd and tell the reaction and their interest in the match. Even when they were slightly off on stuff (there was a spot where Bobby was suppose to eat something, Dennis was off on it, they had to reset it, and then still didn't fully nail it) they saved/reeled things in brilliantly (Bobby "falling off the apron", Corny trying to keep him up in funny way, before Bobby finally falls to the floor). These guys weren't just Doing Shit, they were Doing Shit The Fans Could Eat Up.

 

I doubt there was anything in the match that the MX & Corny *innovated*. A lot of the stuff were things that Yohe had seen various tag teams do in LA in the 60s and 70s, and I suspect folks so other teams do in other territories. The MX & Corny just did a hell of a lot of it well, pieced it together well, and filled up a match that from start to finish wasn't just "solid" but Good... really good.

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Thinking about it, it's quite striking how much of Wrestlemania was dedicated to putting over the previous generation of stars at the expense of the current crop. Rock went over Cena. Taker and HHH made it abundantly clear that the only wrestlers they considered worthy opponents were each other. Big Show got his Wrestlemania moment at the expense of Cody Rhodes and won a worthless vanity belt in the process. Even Kane/Orton kind of fits in to that dynamic. The only new-school guy who got a win over a member of the old guard was CM Punk. It's like the WWE was admitting that the current product sucks and put all the old guys over as a kind of apology.

 

Also, while I enjoyed Taker/HHH, it is annoying to see two guys who don't need any help getting over and aren't responsible for carrying the company avail themselves of every booking gimmick known to man in order to monopolize the crowd heat at the biggest show of the year. And the patrons of the bar I watched it at were laughing at Shawn's dramatic gestures.

[El-P]

Well, I have no issue believing the MX and R'n'R match you watched was much better than Punk vs Jericho from Mania. Then again, we're talking some of the best workers ever in another setting, by that I mean, an era where workers were used to improvise and feel the crowd. (when I hear stuff like they tell the workers not to acknowledge the crowd these days, it says everything you need to know about their mentality toward what is "working").

[goodhelmet]

Don't know how it came across on tv but live, Punk-Jericho worked. The entire match, you had fans cheering in pockets but not the entire crowd until the end. It wasn't a match where huge chunks of fans were going to take a piss or get a beer, unlike the women's match where I had to actually wait to exit the bowl. Everyone I talked to live enjoyed the match for what it was. Glad to see people like Loss and funk enjoyed it.

[kjh]

The divas match was hilarious. They do an injury angle for the celeb and she still wins. Glad Beth got a pay day, but that was a huge "Fuck You" to someone who deserves better.

Wasn't the injury angle only done because she was hurt for real on Dancing With The Stars?

[Matt D]

I liked Punk-Jericho, a lot. I was into it, and I was actually into the REAL LIFE stuff too because to me it was them trying to do Liz-Savage-Flair from WM 8. That's what it felt like. Maybe it was a weird sort of nostalgia for me(I want them to do Megapowers Explode with Punk and DB too). And for me Jericho's corny execution on the titantron in the build worked. I can understand why it wouldn't for someone else, but I bought into it for some reason. I think it was the sheer amount of joy when he said.. "Buuuut your sister." and the fans sort of groaned.

 

The things I didn't like was Punk's lack of direct back selling and the rana. (And Punk was selling the heck out of his back tonight against Henry so... good for him?). So even if the match didn't work for the crowd (And will says it did), it worked for me.

 

I'm not sure what else to say:

 

I bet that RnR/MX match was better and if you'd put it online I'd be appreciative of that?

 

I don't think Punk/Jericho was better than RnR vs Russians title change? But I thought it was good and really enjoyed it. And I still have the sour taste of the 08 KOTR Jericho/Punk match in my mouth from watching it two months ago so I was not naturally inclined towards it or anything. I thought it was a good match for me and I'd put it against a lot of the 2012 WWE output I've seen certainly.

[Victator]

I don't think the reason matters. She should have lost. This would of been like WCW having Insane Clown Posse beat Harlem Heat cleanly.

[Ricky Jackson]

This would of been like WCW having Insane Clown Posse beat Harlem Heat cleanly.

Except it's not at all like that.

[Victator]

How the fuck is it not like that?

[Ricky Jackson]

Vince booked a celebrity/non-wrestler to go over clean in the main event of a Wrestlemania 17 years ago...why the hell would anyone expect any other outcome for a meaningless mid-card women's match?

[Victator]

That was pretty stupid too, but at least LT was a genuine star. He also did not put him over a champion and book a in jury angle for the celeb.

 

So it is exactly like WCW booking ICP to beat Harlem Heat cleanly in 1999.

[Coffey]

The problem I had with that '99 Rumble match (well, one of many) is that Vince spent so much time outside the ring. Not that he should of wrestled an hour, Vince was obviously too limited for that. But it ruins the concept of an endurance match when you establish that a competitor can legally sit outside the ring for 45 minutes. I mean, why doesn't everyone try that?

During an old Royal Rumble, I can't remember exactly which one it is, but Jesse Ventura on color commentary makes a statement that an individual has ten seconds to return back to the ring or risk disqualification. They should just actually enforce that, so it stops a lot of the "he wasn't really eliminated!" shit and all the nonsense like what Vince McMahon did.

[Ricky Jackson]

Were Harlem Heat even still a team in 1999? And if they were, I doubt I would have lost much sleep if ICP went over them clean.

 

So, sure, whatever, you're right, exact same thing. Silly me.

[Victator]

Harlem Heat reunited in late 1999 to win the WCW Tag Team titles. I used them specifically since they were the champions at the time WCW was booking ICP as a tag team.

 

It is stupid to book one of your champions to lose to a D list celebrity cleanly on your biggest show of the year. It is disrespectful both to the wrestlers and the regular viewers.

 

Like why did you even post, if you were going to try slink away with a sarcasm shield? Why waste everyone's time?

[Ricky Jackson]

Look at this way, Beth wouldn't have even been on the show and received a nice pay day if it wasn't to put over that celeb.

 

Cena once jobbed to K-Fed. Who cares? It's how the WWE has always operated and always will.

 

[Jingus]

Look at this way, Beth wouldn't have even been on the show and received a nice pay day if it wasn't to put over that celeb.

She would've been on the show regardless. Who else would they put on the heel side of the inevitable divas match? The only time Beth hasn't wrestled on Mania since she joined the company (besides when she was injured) was last year when the company was making LayCool the focus of the division. Beth's basically the top female heel in the company, she was going to be on this card whether Menounos was there or not.

 

Cena once jobbed to K-Fed. Who cares?

Not remotely the same. Cena's loss was a case where other wrestlers ran in, beat the shit out of John, and then threw Federline's corpse on top for the pin. That's not Cena "jobbing", it's not even close. Maria Mennuuuunnooozz cleanly pinned Beth Phoenix in the middle of the ring 1-2-3.

 

It's how the WWE has always operated and always will.

Not really, because this was a really strange choice for a "celebrity" wrestler. Menounos is not exactly a household name; I'd never even heard of her before this. So the "she's so famous they just HAD to use her" excuse they had with Snooki doesn't apply. She's certainly got zero in the way of athletic credentials or badass aura, so this isn't even close to Lawrence Taylor or Floyd Mayweather or hell, even Mr T.

 

Then there was the way the match was structured. I forget who, but someone else here already pointed out how weirdly it was booked: Menounos took the long heat segment... and then shortly afterward was there waiting for Kelly's hot tag... and then got the finish. Huh? This is a non-athlete with broken ribs. Why the hell was she in there for so long? This should've been like the Snooki match last year, with the celeb guest just doing one or two brief spots and little else. Menounos spent at least a solid three or four minutes in the ring, which was way too long. She certainly couldn't pull off any impressive moves which would've justified her inclusion. And the whole thing sends a general message of "any random actor from any random TV show can totally kick our wrestlers' asses, even if they've got serious injuries before the match!".

 

...why is all this Mania talk in the 24/7 Roundtable thread? Vic made a post yesterday that looked like he accidentally put it in the wrong thread, and it's been going ever since.

[Ricky Jackson]

OK, OK, I was being a dick. Sorry.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I got the brother/father/sister stuff. I frankly didn't give a shit about it in the parts of the build up that I watched: I fucking HATE that type of bullshit "I'm shooting now!" storyline.

There was nothing about it that was "I'm shooting now". It's storyline stuff re: Punk's character and Jericho being a douchebag. It may not have worked for you and the people at your place watching but it worked for me and the people watching at my place, man.

[jdw]

Talking about Punk's family *was* "I'm shooting now!" stuff. And was played as such leading into Mania.

 

More power to you if you enjoy Jericho and Punk working in storyline elements about Punk's family of addicts. That stuff bores the fuck out of me, especially when two guys were earlier trying to get across that their central storyline was Best In The World.

 

John

[jdw]

I liked Punk-Jericho, a lot. I was into it, and I was actually into the REAL LIFE stuff too because to me it was them trying to do Liz-Savage-Flair from WM 8. That's what it felt like. Maybe it was a weird sort of nostalgia for me

Nah.

 

If it was Liz-Savage-Flair, Jericho would have talked about how was banging one of the women in wrestling that has been associated with Punk.

 

One storyline dealt with people who were all involved in the business and had sexual overtones.

 

The other dealt with people who aren't in the business nor on TV and has an addiction/drug storyline.

 

It's a bit like saying the storyline of Drugstore Cowboy makes me nostalgic for Debbie Does Dallas. They're not the same thing.

 

John

[Bix]

Talking about Punk's family *was* "I'm shooting now!" stuff. And was played as such leading into Mania.

 

More power to you if you enjoy Jericho and Punk working in storyline elements about Punk's family of addicts. That stuff bores the fuck out of me, especially when two guys were earlier trying to get across that their central storyline was Best In The World.

Legit have no idea how any of that is "HE'S SHOOTING!"

[Coffey]

Legit have no idea how any of that is "HE'S SHOOTING!"

I don't either. It wasn't some insider stuff. It was just a kayfabe storyline to use against a guy whose entire gimmick is being Straight Edge.