Mr Wrestling X Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 I'm not particulary fond of the tag team standard that is "playing Ricky Morton". I suppose this could be down to the fact that it's so overused to the point of ridiculousness in modern wrestling. The beating that the "Ricky Morton" takes has become more and more harsh with the eventual comeback destroying my suspension of disbelief and negating much of the good points of the match. Don't get me wrong, some wrestlers really excel at this role because they are naturally good at selling and along with the other participants in the match, they subscribe to the "less is more" concept and don't ruin the suspension of disbelief that they create. Some modern promotions like ROH have phased out his trope in favour of more dynamic, fast paced and unpredictable tag team wrestling that isn't spot heavy but naturally, WWE continues to favour this trope in the majority of their tag team contests. So, I pose the thread title as question to everyone else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Face in peril is the best formula in wrestling history. It has produced more great matches than any other formula in wrestling history. Great wrestlers can do great things with it, and sometimes very limited wrestlers can do decent things with it too. There's no reason to fix it or abandon it. It works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 ROH's attempts to not use face in peril in tag matches has made almost all of their tag matches either forgettable or just bad. Face in peril can be used incorrectly, but ROH's use of going against it doesn't showcase it's flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 I don't know if it qualifies as a "trope," but I don't like when a guy wins pretty much all of his matches with the same move. I wouldn't say that I "loathe" it - it just takes away some of the drama from that guy's matches and seems a little unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted April 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 ROH's attempts to not use face in peril in tag matches has made almost all of their tag matches either forgettable or just bad. Face in peril can be used incorrectly, but ROH's use of going against it doesn't showcase it's flaws. I mentioned ROH because it's the happy medium between the face in peril and the spot heavy tag matches. Sure, the face in peril scenario is a successful formula, but that doesn't make it ok for the heel wrestler to just rely on illegal tactics and rest holds (which is pretty much what you get from WWE tag team matches). If the face is great at selling the distinction between moves (a headlock being discomforting and a figure four leglock being excruciating for instance) and the heel is great at determining an interesting pacing and order of moves then it's a formula that works for me. Funnily enough, I actually thought the recent CM Punk vs Mark Henry match on Raw (the first one) did the face in peril formula that I just described really well. Of course, this wasn't a tag team match though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Personally with the exception of wild brawls I have no interest in ever watching a tag match that has a non-FIP structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 The trope I don't like is ... THE INTERFERENCE CONTACT OF DOOM Most wrestlers can take a lot of punishment before being pinned, even chairshots. But if that chairshot comes from the deadly OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE, they are basically out cold for the 3-count. It's ridiculous. Doesn't even matter what the foreign object is either, Cornette's tennis racket, Liz's shoe, Bobby Heenan's bare fist. Another one is more specific to 80s / 90s WWF: the idea that heels can only ever win cheap. I'd say that over 90% of heel victories against non-jobbers in this period ended with clenched tights, feet on the ropes or outside interference. I think "the finish" has the potential to be the hokiest part of any match because often it's the only scripted part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 I don't have any interest in tag matches that don't have a FIP situation. That seems like a needless reinvention of the wheel. Now, poorly done FIP I could do without but when done right it's a formula that works every time. But the key is the teases, the heels using blind tags and the little things they do to cheat while beating the shit out of a face. Hell, I didn't even know who the RockNES Monsters were the first time I saw them in NWA Hollywood and I instantly latched onto them because they worked the FIP well despite being a couple of spot monkeys. Here's the link to the tropes listed: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...sionalWrestling I think out of the ones listed on the site I'm most tired of the glass jawed referee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rob Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 The trope I don't like is ... THE INTERFERENCE CONTACT OF DOOM Most wrestlers can take a lot of punishment before being pinned, even chairshots. But if that chairshot comes from the deadly OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE, they are basically out cold for the 3-count. It's ridiculous. Doesn't even matter what the foreign object is either, Cornette's tennis racket, Liz's shoe, Bobby Heenan's bare fist. Another one is more specific to 80s / 90s WWF: the idea that heels can only ever win cheap. I'd say that over 90% of heel victories against non-jobbers in this period ended with clenched tights, feet on the ropes or outside interference. I think "the finish" has the potential to be the hokiest part of any match because often it's the only scripted part. It won't always work in this manor, but think about it like this - if you bite your tongue on purpose, you'll feel it. But if you bite it by accident (ie. you don't expect it to happen), it hurts like crazy. In the same way, a blind-sided racket shot from Cornette would likely catch you by surprise and could easily be enough to KO you for a pinfall. That and it was a loaded racket. Oh, and I totally agree with the tag team thing. And I hate it when the tag goes on for more than a few minutes after the hot tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Personally with the exception of wild brawls I have no interest in ever watching a tag match that has a non-FIP structure. Hold on, did any of the matches on the All Japan set really have FiP structure? I wouldn't describe all of those as "wild brawls". Is Jumbo / Tenryu vs. Yatsu / Choshu really a wild brawl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Most of the best tags on that set have some sort of FIP structure, including the finals of the 89 tag league and the old man tag that proceeds it which will be my 2 and 3 respectively (though I'm not certain of the order). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Yeah, the idea of wrestlers having a finishing move always felt too comic book/trading card-like to me -- similar to how every comic protagonist has a weakness. I guess it has marketing value though. Randy Orton using the RKO as his normal finisher and throwing out the punt in rare cases/big matches is a great compromise that I can live with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Most of the best tags on that set have some sort of FIP structure, including the finals of the 89 tag league and the old man tag that proceeds it which will be my 2 and 3 respectively (though I'm not certain of the order). There'll be maybe 3 or even in some cases 4 stretch sequences though. And you get plenty of heel-in-peril stuff too. I'm mainly talking pre-89, because a lot of the later tags have Jumbo as the hot tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 If they aren't working FIP,. they are certainly working Strong buddy/weak buddy which is just as effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 I'm with Dylan here. Unless it's the Moondogs vs. Lawler and Fuller/Jarrett then most great tags have FIP segments. I love wild brawls too but FIP segments are the most crucial part in a tag team wrestling match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Great tags have FIP segments, but shitty tags have them too. I've had my appreciation for hot tags almost entirely killed from seeing SO many formulaic indy matches where the guys were either unable or unwilling to deviate from the formula even the slightest bit. It's like they took a Remedial Wrestling Psychology class and then decided they were ring generals and never needed to learn more or experiment in any way. Many a "hot tag" has been lukewarm if not icy cold, just because most of the audience can tell that the guys are going through the motion and the vitally important suspension-of-disbelief simply never happens. Along with what Jerry said about interference: basically any time that any move is magically more powerful in certain situations. When it's a street-clothes-beatdown, guys are laid out unconscious by offense that they would have shrugged off in the ring. Or when a wrestler is a guest referee, and suddenly becomes just as vulnerable to one-hit-knockdowns as the regular officials. Or in a tag match, where a guy's partner is saving him on pinfall attempts after moves which never get the win. Or in big elimination matches, where non-finishers miraculously gain the power to earn pinfalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Great tags have FIP segments, but shitty tags have them too. I've had my appreciation for hot tags almost entirely killed from seeing SO many formulaic indy matches where the guys were either unable or unwilling to deviate from the formula even the slightest bit. It's like they took a Remedial Wrestling Psychology class and then decided they were ring generals and never needed to learn more or experiment in any way. Many a "hot tag" has been lukewarm if not icy cold, just because most of the audience can tell that the guys are going through the motion and the vitally important suspension-of-disbelief simply never happens. Along with what Jerry said about interference: basically any time that any move is magically more powerful in certain situations. When it's a street-clothes-beatdown, guys are laid out unconscious by offense that they would have shrugged off in the ring. Or when a wrestler is a guest referee, and suddenly becomes just as vulnerable to one-hit-knockdowns as the regular officials. Or in a tag match, where a guy's partner is saving him on pinfall attempts after moves which never get the win. Or in big elimination matches, where non-finishers miraculously gain the power to earn pinfalls. That ties into mine, how in lucha the first and second falls are not only rushed through most times but often won with the weakest move possible. It's even worse when they pin the two non captains in a trios match to win a fall with the most basic hold possible and they sell them like instant death. It comes off like the guy losing the fall just decided "fuck this, I'll get em in the next fall" or worse comes off like a pussy for losing to a weak move. Fragile referees are a big one as well, but WWE has noticeably toned ref bumps way down. Gone are the days that refs would go down on the slightest bump in every match, then sell being knocked out to the point that they'd be brain damaged if it was even slightly real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Ha ha, following on from that ... when OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE HEEL gets caught up by INTERVENING FACE and after a single punch will just be OUT COLD for like 10 minutes. I'm sure I've seen Arn Anderson out for the count in this scenario several times. The INTERVENING FACE is probably the most powerful force ever known to man. He can lay out upwards of 8 guys with basic moves. A slam or an Irish whip from this guy could actually be fatal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Referees never getting any smarter or more resilient is also an interesting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 That ties into mine, how in lucha the first and second falls are not only rushed through most times but often won with the weakest move possible. It's even worse when they pin the two non captains in a trios match to win a fall with the most basic hold possible and they sell them like instant death. It comes off like the guy losing the fall just decided "fuck this, I'll get em in the next fall" or worse comes off like a pussy for losing to a weak move. I don't think anyone who watches lucha seriously cares about any of this stuff. I mean, face in peril is stupid as shit if you think about it. How dumb do the babyfaces have to be to get themselves stuck in the same situation against the same opposition night after night? They must be thick as shit, not to mention the referees. And how can you work the next night with the injuries you were supposed to have sustained in a FIP match? Some of these guys have some miraculously fast healing bodies. If you hold FIP up to the light, heels should have gotten away with it for a while before action was taken to stop it from happening. All the NWA would've had to do is follow Gorilla Monsoon's old bugaboo about having a second ref at ringside. The first two falls in lucha aren't always rushed through and the finishes are often elaborate. The first two falls being rushed through is not always a bad thing, either. There is good lucha and then there is bad lucha. There is more bad lucha than good lucha. And there is a lot of bad lucha on Galavision. By the same token, sometimes FIP works and sometimes it doesn't. Watching all those 80s WWF tags where the entire FIP structure is shortened to about 10 minutes, FIP becomes worthless. I would rather watch a sprint then watch a 10 minute WWF FIP match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 This is a trope I miss but I miss the fat man wrestler trope with the generic fat man offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 My least favorite new trope that's popping up a lot is that no one every hits the first "attempt" off the turnbuckles: it's countered. Worse, the counter get countered. It's bad enough for guys to be doing the Do-Si-Do in the middle of the ring. But in the corner, up on the turnbuckles? Fuck... it's getting as predictable as You Can't Power Bomb Kidman, and makes you long for someone just simply setting a dude's ass on the top turnbuckle and hitting a Superplex rather than the two mutally masturbating back and forth. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" WRESTLER: *CHOP* CROWD: "WOOOOOOO!" jdw: "Oh for fuck's sake!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 The infamous WWF/WWE Missed Clothesline Transition~! I was too distracted at Mania to try to figure out if they still go to the well on this as much as they were a decade ago... and five years ago. The number of missed lariats use to be mind numbing, it was as if the WWF/WWE Style has no other clue of how to transition one guy from bottom to top without it, and at times they were so lackluster in effort they'd practically just wag a lariat to get though it. Blah. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I often find it odd that a kick to the head can't finsh a guy, but if the boot comes off and is used as a weapon it has the power of a cinder block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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