Size matters?

[Jingus]

This is a topic we've run into and danced around a few times, but never properly had a full discussion about. Simply put: how important is a wrestler's physical size in today's pro wrestling?

 

Personally, I think it matters less than ever when it comes to drawing money or becoming popular. Cena is a pretty big guy in regular-world terms, but there are plenty of gargantuan superstars who tower over him. Mysterio is the perennial second-biggest draw, and he's the smallest guy in the company. Before they self destructed, the Hardys were HUGE money-makers and sold metric fucktons of merchandise. Clearly, the fans tend to value personality and gimmick and performance over whether or not this person is an unusually tall or muscular human being. For every Big Show who gets over through a combination of size and talent, there's ten Khalis or Rybacks who the crowd never really gives a shit about.

 

So, nowadays size doesn't have as much impact on drawing ability. Next topic: if the crowd wants the little guy to implausibly defeat a much larger opponent, regardless of how unrealistic that might be in a real fight, why shouldn't the little guy win?

[artDDP]

I think that the perception of a pro wrestler looking like a bodybuilder is still there but you can be accepted as long as you look athletic. I also think the fans are more accepting of athletic-looking wrestlers over enormous Ryback/Otunga types.

[Jingus]

Nowadays fans seem bored by "look at how huge this guy is!" pushes, a la Ryback or Mason Ryan. Maybe because we've seen so many muscular freakshows that we've built up a tolerance for it? These aren't the days when Billy Graham or the Road Warriors could show up and be awe-inspiring, because the fans today have seen a hundred guys like that. The originals got over because they were the first.

[Slasher]

Size only matters when if the booking of the character dictates it. For example, no one in the world would buy a Brian Kendrick beating Brock Lesnar. But Rey beating Brock? Maybe. If people were completely re-trained to believe talent and ability conquers all, then no it wouldn't matter.

[Jingus]

Those are two odd examples. Why do you consider Rey to be more intimidating than Kendrick, especially since Spanky is a lot bigger than Mysterio?

[Mad Dog]

I think it does and it doesn't. I think you can overcome size with smartly worked matches with the smaller guy outlasting and outsmarting their opponent and getting the win. I think gimmicks can also be important as guys like Grizzly Redwood have a great character and you start to overlook the fact that he's fairly small.

 

I think where it does matter is when you get into guys like the Special K crew in early RoH. You have guys that weighed 110 lbs., had no definition, no tan, no gear, nothing. I like junior matches but I honestly sat there during those matches thinking "we do I care, I could kick that guy's ass and I'm nothing special." I think when you start thinking that to yourself, someone is too small to be a wrestler.

[Slasher]

Those are two odd examples. Why do you consider Rey to be more intimidating than Kendrick, especially since Spanky is a lot bigger than Mysterio?

Because like I said, the booking said so. Rey is booked to beat bigger guys more often than Kendrick is.

[NintendoLogic]

Of course size matters. Wrestling may be fake, but it's not an action film or a comic book. It's a pseudo-sport, which means that there are limits to suspension of disbelief. If basketball were worked, you wouldn't buy Chris Paul posting up Dwight Howard no matter how good his drop step was. It's not the end-all be-all, but it's not something that you can just sweep under the rug with "smart work."

[El-P]

My girlfriend says yes.

 

As a wrestling fan, I think it's ridiculous. If Vince wanted to make Rey Mysterio the Man, he would. He has just as much (well, more infact) charisma as John Cena, he could move merch like crazy with kids, he could have moved the spanish speaking audience, he's a superior worker. The "pseudo-sport" aspect is so irrelevant at this point. Plus as Ric Flair would do, you cut them legs and those giants don't look so big flat on their backs. Pro-wrestling is perception only. If you train people to think that Rey Mysterio is the Man, they will accept it as the guy is capable of playing the part.

[Matt D]

It matters differently to different people.

 

BUT you can condition the audience to just about anything. Spike and Rey both had giant killer gimmicks and they were put over a few huge guys and it put that doubt in people's mind when they went up against Awesome or Nash. Maybe they COULD do it.

[cm funk]

It's not the be all and end all, but of course size matters. Depending on their style small guys can believably hang with giants and maybe give hope for an upset/fluke win, but it should be a rare occurrence.

 

I think Rey is a great example of how a small guy should be booked. He's almost always an underdog, but can believably beat anyone within a certain size range. He's effective in tag match/rumble/scramble situations. In his big 1 on 1 matches with Khali, Big Show, Lesnar, Batista etc. he puts up a good fight but ultimately tends to lose in a pretty convincing fashion. That's realistic booking.

[Victator]

It matters differently to different people.

 

BUT you can condition the audience to just about anything. Spike and Rey both had giant killer gimmicks and they were put over a few huge guys and it put that doubt in people's mind when they went up against Awesome or Nash. Maybe they COULD do it.

I never bought Spike's giant killer gimmick. When he beat Bam Bam it was fine. After that it was done so sloppily, "oh look he kicked the guy in the nuts and hit the acid drop." and they did the same match for months. It always looked like that old Ren and Stimpy cartoon when they were wrestlers. "Its time to lose the match."

 

Doing it to Big Guido and Big Sal is fine. Then they had him do it to guys like One Man Gang and they still did it in under a minute, when they could of gotten a good brawl out of them. Gang still could of lost, but not in such a stupid manner.

[sek69]

I think it matters as long as Vince has final say in WWE. He had to be dragged kicking and screaming into agreeing to put the belt on Rey, and when he did it was with all the enthusiasm of a six year old eating brussels sprouts.

[Johnny Sorrow]

And let's not be so quick to shit on Ryback. He's getting a slow build and it's been super fun. Him lifting up Reyes and the other jobber stacked like corkwood onto his shoulders and doing a double fisherman's drop was insane. Keep having him do shit like that and he's gonna be over as fuck.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I still think, all things being equal, the fans are more likely to get behind a big guy than a smaller guy. Not necessarily a bodybuilder, but someone who looks big and powerful. Rey is an anomoly, because he's so spectacular and charismatic, but take, say, Jamie Noble, who's a good wrestler and good performer, but works a much more conservative style. You'll have a hard job convincing me that he could get over beyond a certain level, in relation to a similarly (or even lesser) skilled bigger guy.

[Matt D]

It matters differently to different people.

 

BUT you can condition the audience to just about anything. Spike and Rey both had giant killer gimmicks and they were put over a few huge guys and it put that doubt in people's mind when they went up against Awesome or Nash. Maybe they COULD do it.

I never bought Spike's giant killer gimmick. When he beat Bam Bam it was fine. After that it was done so sloppily, "oh look he kicked the guy in the nuts and hit the acid drop." and they did the same match for months. It always looked like that old Ren and Stimpy cartoon when they were wrestlers. "Its time to lose the match."

 

Doing it to Big Guido and Big Sal is fine. Then they had him do it to guys like One Man Gang and they still did it in under a minute, when they could of gotten a good brawl out of them. Gang still could of lost, but not in such a stupid manner.

 

Fine, what about Taz? Yes he wasn't scrawny, but he was still a relatively tiny guy. But he was super protected and the fans were conditioned to see him as the human suplex machine and he was both believable and over, based on booking and match layout alone. Perception is all that matters in wrestling. Sometimes you have to get over a slightly bigger hump, and sometimes it's worth it and sometimes the cost is too high, but the thing that puts wrestling over most real life sports is that you can orchestrate this stuff. It's fiction.

 

That WWE is terrible at long term planning in 2012 isn't the fault of the genre itself.

[Mr Wrestling X]

I was actually watching some old Mysterio's matches earlier (96-97 WCW) and it's incredible how much he has changed physically. In those days Mysterio was trim and had the physique that one would expect from an agility based athlete who had focused on overall fitness and stamina over size and strength. He actually looks taller because his body is proportionate and he's wearing the classical wrestling tights and platformed boots as opposed to his recent baggy slacks and flat boots.

 

The most staggering difference is Mysterio's muscular gain, it looks ridiculous in some ways because his chest, torso and arms are completely out of proportion with the rest of his body and he has increased his width considerably as a result of the aforementioned muscular gains. I'm not going to speculate on what methods Mysterio has used to bulk up and whether they are legal, illegal or questionable but I will say that it surprises me how he can still go out and fly around the ring with all that extra weight and surface area.

[Mad Dog]

Taz was kind of built though. Sure, he was short but I don't think anyone would want to run into him in some back alley. He projected an aura that really covered up his lack of size.

[jdw]

One of the things that might be missed in the straight watching of the Yearbooks is the change in Kawada. Not the change in his height (which never happened), nor his weight (which was grudual enough that it really never was noticable at the time). But in how he was pushed, how others sold for him, and how the crowd responded to him. We don't see it in the Yearbooks because Kawada is already over. He's already pushed strong. He's already being sold for by the bigger guys. The 1992 one is the earliest that's out there and Kawada has two of the bigger Budokan main events of the years:

 

06/92 vs Hansen challenging for the Triple Crown

10/92 vs Misawa challenging for the Triple Crown in a semi dream match

 

The first was against the "biggest" gaijin in the promotion, and the largest in size of the top pushed wrestlers: Jumbo, Taue, Misawa, Kawada, Hansen, Spivey, Gordy, Doc and sorta Kobashi though his push to the next level came in 1993. Hansen was the largest of that group. And he sold for Kawada, with the fans and writers buying it enough that it was given the Tokyo Sports Match of the Year.

 

The second was a match fans went bonkers for. Granted, Kawada is closer in size to Misawa than the rest of those guys, but still... Kawada is main eventing against the top "hot young star" in the promotion.

 

Flip back to the 80s. Kawada pretty much *always* looked and felt "small" in there with the bigger wrestlers. Even when full of fire and those guys selling for him to a degree, there was something missing in how the fans viewed him and how fully the opponents worked with him. I don't really think it was a case of the other workers treating him like shit, but more how Kawada fit into the pecking order. And at that time, the mentality of the promotion wasn't the same as in 1991-93 where pretty much everyone let Kobashi do his thing to the point that he eventually became a force of nature that you couldn't stop him from putting on the Kobashi Show.

 

Did Kawada get bigger from 1989 to 1992? Not really. In 1989 he was so *not* an acceptable partner for Tenryu that despite the 1988 Tag League that we all look fondly back on, Baba felt the need to put Hansen with Tenryu so he had a real level of partner to face Jumbo & Yatsu. But 1992, Kawada was main eventing against Jumbo and Hansen, and no one among All Japan's fan really missed Tenryu and Yatsu at all.

 

Yeah, I get that's Japan.

 

Was Austin as large as Warrior and Hogan? I think the best way to get a feel for that is to put in one of the two big Austin-Bret matches: 1996 Survivor Series and 1997 Mania. Does Austin look like he's making Bret look small like Hogan had? No... not at all. Bigger than Bret to a degree, but Austin isn't what we had thought of as WWF Main Event Size back in 1990 when it was Warrior-Hogan at Mania... or 1991... or 1992.

 

The perception of size changed. Much of it's relative, but not just in Tall and Weight. A good chunk of that relative nature is how wrestlers are treated by the promotion and by each other.

 

It doesn't matter as much as Size Junkies would like to think. That's doesn't mean that someone 5-0 and 120 pounds can draw like Hogan and Austin. But if Austin was the true heir to Hogan, it's entirely possible that the true heir to Austin will be a guy who weighs 40+ pounds less and is 6 inches shorter.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Look is more important than size. The problem with the modern product - maybe my biggest problem with it actually - is that organic/unique/interesting/different looks are incredibly rare.

[Matt D]

And presentation and protection is more important than look. Maybe not in the casual fan. If someone won't buy Big Show's punch as a finisher because they haven't seen the build, then yeah, they're not going to buy a 5 foot tall guy being a main eventer. But if people stick through a really effective build on a talented performer, they will believe anything.

[Loss]

I have never heard casual wrestling fans discuss the size of smaller guys in a negative way. Granted, I don't know many casual fans, but I think it's something that people within wrestling and hardcore fans care more about than fans. Charisma and push are the two biggest factors in getting people over. I agree with Dylan that a unique look is more important than being a huge guy. Bland is a bigger issue than small. And of course wrestlers need to look like athletes, but athletes come in all shapes and sizes, so there's no reason wrestlers can't either.

[JerryvonKramer]

Do speed and agility matter?

 

Do strength and power matter?

 

Do guts and determination matter?

 

Do endurance and stamina matter?

 

Do intelligence and knowledge of moves matter?

 

The kayfabe answer in ALL cases is "yes".

 

One of the things NWA / WCW always did well was have the commentators assess the strengths and weaknesses of a guy.

 

Luger vs. Windham -- well Luger's giving up probably the height and the weight advantage there, but he's definitely stronger. Windham's got him smoked for intelligence and knowledge, but ... etc. etc.

 

In fact, even the WWF did this sort of thing pretty well in the 80s. How many times did we hear Gorilla tell us "the longer this match goes on, the more it plays into Greg Valentine's hands"?

 

Size is just one more differential.

 

One Man Gang is a big man, but Rey probably has him beat in most of those other categories, so it's totally believable Rey would go over.

 

As others have said, the biggest problem with the modern product is that it's often difficult to see now the real differences between workers.

 

Guys like One Man Gang don't really exist. Hell, guys like Windham don't really exist. Everyone is like a 7/10 for every category, makes everyone samey.

[Al]

What about heel vs. face? I think it's relatively easy to have a small face. Much more difficult to have an undersized heel. It's easier to sell a threatening monster heel.

[JerryvonKramer]

You can have a smart / technical heel or a chicken shit heel vs. basically a Hogan. Don't see why that can't work.