goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 OK, this argument is getting ridiculous. Ragemaster, Dylan and I are going to bite and do a write-up on 5 wrestlers apiece. Now, before we start crossing off matches from that Shawn list, if you think those matches are all legitimately good matches, I want to see a write-up on each one. Not a recap but your explanation on why those matches are good. I probably agree with you that most of those Kane matches are shitty since Kane is one of the worst main eventers ever in WWE. But hey, wrestlers like working with him so what the hell. Also, Chess Knight, you can disqualify the Rockers vs. Rose/ Somers from your mind but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Sound the alarm! Will's generalizing and discounting stuff without watching specific matches again! And really, the argument isn't even ABOUT Kane. He's the control in this situation, the constant. The argument is about the other guys in the matches relative to Shawn and how the matches are put together, how well they can work with Kane and how well Kane can work with them. The match that the others are being compared to is a Kane match too! The argument, as best I understand it, is that Shawn vs Kane is a shitty match and a big reason for that is due to decisions Shawn made in his offense and how he decided to work Kane. While the matches were touted as good, that's independent of the prime argument, which is that they're better than a possibly terrible Shawn vs Kane match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Kane vs Rob Van Dam Summerslam 03IIRC, I found that one to be too short and rather underwhelming, especially since it was positioned as a big blowoff to the months-long Kane/RVD storyline. If you must have Kane in a PPV match versus a skinny inconsistent spin-kicking opponent who used to be his partner, the X-Pac cage match from Armageddon 99 was much better. I almost peed myself when frigging Kane did a cage dive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I'm not even defending Kane here. Just that Shawn match is one of the worst matches Shawn or Kane ever had. I think people know me well enough to know I do not shit on matches lightly. I try to find something good in everything I watch. This match had nothing. It was poorly thought out from a story stand point. Shawn's offense was terrible. It was a very bad night for both of them. I was watching it with my kids and even they did not like it. Which is something because the little one is a Kane fanatic.' IIRC, I found that one to be too short and rather underwhelming, especially since it was positioned as a big blowoff to the months-long Kane/RVD storyline. If you must have Kane in a PPV match versus a skinny inconsistent spin-kicking opponent who used to be his partner, the X-Pac cage match from Armageddon 99 was much better. I almost peed myself when frigging Kane did a cage dive. Oh I do not really care for either of those. Just they are way worse than the Shawn match. The Pac match had its moments, but I thought the story telling was too screwed up. My main point is if a match is bad by Kane standards, then no way is it on Shawn's highlight reel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Oh for fuck's sake, did I hit on one of your sacred cows again? Kane? Really? EDIT: Talking to Matt D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 OK, this argument is getting ridiculous. Ragemaster, Dylan and I are going to bite and do a write-up on 5 wrestlers apiece. Now, before we start crossing off matches from that Shawn list, if you think those matches are all legitimately good matches, I want to see a write-up on each one. Not a recap but your explanation on why those matches are good. I probably agree with you that most of those Kane matches are shitty since Kane is one of the worst main eventers ever in WWE. But hey, wrestlers like working with him so what the hell. Also, Chess Knight, you can disqualify the Rockers vs. Rose/ Somers from your mind but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Ok that's fair, as for the write up, cut the match's you don't think that belong and if i disagree i do do a write up for it's inclusion. As there's a lot of matches on that list, and that's with out the AWA stuff. Other parameter's which need to be addressed is only matches which are available to watch, and not for example Andre mythical matches, were he was german suplexed by Danny Hodge in japan in the early 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Rage, I will be on vacation for a bit but I plan on taking some footage with me. I will be focusing on AWA and 1980s WWf but will work on cutting some of those matches when I have time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Rage, I will be on vacation for a bit but I plan on taking some footage with me. I will be focusing on AWA and 1980s WWf but will work on cutting some of those matches when I have time. No prob's, i look forward to reading your list's guy's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?" I think Shawn has a strong number of super "memorable" matches in large part because he's been pushed and promoted as "the showstoppa!" and constantly put in the position to have those sort of matches. But in terms of volume of quality he is well below a lot of people, including people with shorter careers. But that argument also go's to the guys and gals in japan, who also are put in a position to have great matches and it's not brought up as a negative against Misawa and co. Volume of quality is an interesting point, as compared to Bret Hart and Vader his volume i would suggest, blows there's away. he also kept up a higher level than most for over 26 years which must count in his favour. I thought Shawn was average to bad from the time of his comeback forward so I totally disagree with you there. I am not a huge Bret fan and actually like Vader less than some here. Both have a higher volume of good matches and are - I think - inarguably more versatile than Shawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 OK, this argument is getting ridiculous. Ragemaster, Dylan and I are going to bite and do a write-up on 5 wrestlers apiece. Now, before we start crossing off matches from that Shawn list, if you think those matches are all legitimately good matches, I want to see a write-up on each one. Not a recap but your explanation on why those matches are good. I probably agree with you that most of those Kane matches are shitty since Kane is one of the worst main eventers ever in WWE. But hey, wrestlers like working with him so what the hell. Also, Chess Knight, you can disqualify the Rockers vs. Rose/ Somers from your mind but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Ok that's fair, as for the write up, cut the match's you don't think that belong and if i disagree i do do a write up for it's inclusion. As there's a lot of matches on that list, and that's with out the AWA stuff. Other parameter's which need to be addressed is only matches which are available to watch, and not for example Andre mythical matches, were he was german suplexed by Danny Hodge in japan in the early 70's. Define "available to watch." Shawn has more stuff that is easily available because he's been marketed as a messianic figure by Vince and co. for years. Someone who is less negative about him than I am recently called him the most overpushed/promoted wrestler in the history of the WWE and I think that is quite possibly true. So if the standard is "match that is easily available on youtube or WWE released DVD" Shawn is going to do disproportionately well. If the standard is "matches that exist in some form on tape and can be seen" I assumed that was implied to begin with. No one here is going to push Andre based on matches they haven't seen. We are going to push Andre based on his matches with Hansen, Khan, Kobayashi, et. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Oh for fuck's sake, did I hit on one of your sacred cows again? Kane? Really? EDIT: Talking to Matt D. Dude he was just joking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?" I think Shawn has a strong number of super "memorable" matches in large part because he's been pushed and promoted as "the showstoppa!" and constantly put in the position to have those sort of matches. But in terms of volume of quality he is well below a lot of people, including people with shorter careers. But that argument also go's to the guys and gals in japan, who also are put in a position to have great matches and it's not brought up as a negative against Misawa and co. Volume of quality is an interesting point, as compared to Bret Hart and Vader his volume i would suggest, blows there's away. he also kept up a higher level than most for over 26 years which must count in his favour. I thought Shawn was average to bad from the time of his comeback forward so I totally disagree with you there. I am not a huge Bret fan and actually like Vader less than some here. Both have a higher volume of good matches and are - I think - inarguably more versatile than Shawn. I don't know i've been looking back at bret's run, i'm up to 1995 and there's lot of good matches' but not that many great matches' on my list. Looking forward i'm guessing there's only about 4 more great matches to go on for his list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Oh for fuck's sake, did I hit on one of your sacred cows again? Kane? Really? EDIT: Talking to Matt D. Dude he was just joking. Good because I am already set to watch every Demolitiion match available form the 1980s. I am not going to sit through a bunch of shit Kane matches just to continue this argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I thought i better outline what i liked about the Kane vs. Michaels match. Now let me make it absolutely clear, that in no way do i think this is a great match. The truth is, i hate Kane as a wrestler, and his whole gimmick of an unstoppable monster. It bores me whenever i see him wrestling, or whatever it is he trying to do in the ring. So when he wrestled Michaels and had an fast paced give and take match, i found it that much more enjoyable than the normal Kane snoozefest. Also there were some cool spot's in the match, like the back flip out of the corner in to the jumping ddt. Kane killing Michaels outside with the table and Shawn running in to the big boot when he's trying to do the super kick. The big complaint seems to be Michaels chops in the match, now i never understood the issue with them. He working within the WWF/E frame, the fan's react to them and if you can get the fans to react without killing your opponent isn't that a bonus. Why chop like Genichiro Tenryu if you don't have to? The fans watching don't care and i bet Kane isn't saying, gee you didn't make my chest bleed tonight next time hit me harder Shawn. So that's the basic reason i like the match, not love it but like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Also, Chess Knight, you can disqualify the Rockers vs. Rose/ Somers from your mind but it doesn't mean they don't exist. My point was it was too long since I've seen them so I wouldn't be counting them in the Michaels' Best v Sting's Best. Watching them way back when, I never thought where I'd rank them on a top Michaels matches list and remember jack shit about them. I rated Michaels pretty comfortably ahead of Sting and was giving Sting the benefit of the doubt for not including them, I'd think. On next watch I could think they're Shawn's best stuff, who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Got it. I think if they are as well-received as we think they are going to be, they are clearly going to strengthen HBK's case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 ragemaster... I took these off the same way I would take a match like Wargames off of a list for Sid or JJ Dillon. Are any of these matches what you would label as the Shawn Michaels show? For example, you can give Arn credit for the first Wargames because he was in the entire match and really held things together. You can even say the same for guys like Flair and Mysterio who were the Iron Men in their Rumble victories. If any of these have long, extended HBK is a bigger star than everyone else in the match moments, let me know! Survivor Series 1988 November 24 The Powers of Pain, The Rockers, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Jim Powers & Paul Roma VS Demolition Ax & Smash, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard, Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov, Raymond & Jacques Rougeau, and The Conquistadors Survivor Series 1989 November 23 Ultimate Warrior, Jim Neidhart, & The Rockers VS Bobby Heenan, Andre the Giant, Haku, & Arn Anderson Survivor Series 1990 November 22 Rick Martel, Warlord, Hercules, & Paul Roma VS Jake Roberts, Jimmy Snuka, & The Rockers Survivor Series 1994 November 23 Razor Ramon, The 1-2-3 Kid, Davey Smith, Headshrinkers Fatu & Sionne Vs Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Owen Hart, Jim Niedhart, & Jeff Jarrett Survivor Series 1995 November 19 Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, Davey Smith, & Psycho Sid VS Yokozuna, Owen Hart, Razor Ramon, & Dean Douglas Survivor Series 2002 November 17 elimination chamber match Survivor Series 2003 November 16 Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Christian, Scott Steiner, & Mark Henry VS Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Bubba & D-Von Dudley 4/12/04 Triple H/Randy Orton/Batista/Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin/Chris Benoit/Mick Foley/Shawn Michaels Survivor Series 2005 November 27 John Bradhsaw Layfield, Rey Mysterio, Batista, Randy Orton, & Bobby Lashley VS Shawn Michaels, Carlito, The Big Show, Kane & Chris Masters Survivor Series 2006 November 26 Triple H, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, Matt & Jeff Hardy VS Randy Orton, Edge, Mike Knox, Gregory Helms, & Johnny Nitro 12/4/06 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy/Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Joey Mercury/Johnny Nitro No Way Out 2008 February 17 elimination chamber Survivor Series 2008 23 November Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, The Great Khali, & Cryme Tye beat John Bradshaw Layfield, The Miz, John Morrison, MVP, & Kane (18:13) in an "elimination" match. Michaels, Mysterio, & Khali were the survivors. 10/25/09 Chris Jericho/Kane/Tyson Kidd/David Hart Smith/Finlay/Matt Hardy/R-Truth vs. Triple H/Shawn Michaels/Big Show/Kofi Kingston/Jack Swagger/Mark Henry/Cody Rhodes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chess Knight Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I have no idea how it holds up, but Shawn's the main man in the Survivor Series 2003 tag. Spends the meat of the match bleeding and playing the FIP and takes the losing pinfall. He and Trip are the main players in the 2006 tag (none of the face team even get eliminated IIRC), but it's not something to point to as a memorable Michaels performance the way the 2003 might be. He sure as shit isn't the guy to look at in the awesome 4/12/04 tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I'd just like to mention, once again, that I think that matches aren't the be all and all. Warrior probably had more "great matches" in the WWF than DiBiase did in the WWF, does that mean that Warrior > DiBiase? Matches are just one measure. Any true comparison of Shawn and another wrestler has to take other things into account. It has to be an holistic comparison. It doesn't just come to "Well Shawn had 15 great matches and Ted only had 8, so Shawn wins". That approach seems rather crude to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Yep, it's a lot more meaningful to break down what they do well and why. And what they don't do well over a series of matches. There are trends and patterns. They are worth examining and judging a wrestler way more than "Great matches" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 This is why I'd rather compare matches than wrestlers, if given the choice. I feel more comfortable judging the meal than the chef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 ragemaster... I took these off the same way I would take a match like Wargames off of a list for Sid or JJ Dillon. Are any of these matches what you would label as the Shawn Michaels show? For example, you can give Arn credit for the first Wargames because he was in the entire match and really held things together. You can even say the same for guys like Flair and Mysterio who were the Iron Men in their Rumble victories. If any of these have long, extended HBK is a bigger star than everyone else in the match moments, let me know! Survivor Series 1988 November 24 The Powers of Pain, The Rockers, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Jim Powers & Paul Roma VS Demolition Ax & Smash, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard, Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov, Raymond & Jacques Rougeau, and The Conquistadors Survivor Series 1989 November 23 Ultimate Warrior, Jim Neidhart, & The Rockers VS Bobby Heenan, Andre the Giant, Haku, & Arn Anderson Survivor Series 1990 November 22 Rick Martel, Warlord, Hercules, & Paul Roma VS Jake Roberts, Jimmy Snuka, & The Rockers Survivor Series 1994 November 23 Razor Ramon, The 1-2-3 Kid, Davey Smith, Headshrinkers Fatu & Sionne Vs Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Owen Hart, Jim Niedhart, & Jeff Jarrett Survivor Series 1995 November 19 Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, Davey Smith, & Psycho Sid VS Yokozuna, Owen Hart, Razor Ramon, & Dean Douglas Survivor Series 2002 November 17 elimination chamber match Survivor Series 2003 November 16 Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Christian, Scott Steiner, & Mark Henry VS Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Bubba & D-Von Dudley 4/12/04 Triple H/Randy Orton/Batista/Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin/Chris Benoit/Mick Foley/Shawn Michaels Survivor Series 2005 November 27 John Bradhsaw Layfield, Rey Mysterio, Batista, Randy Orton, & Bobby Lashley VS Shawn Michaels, Carlito, The Big Show, Kane & Chris Masters Survivor Series 2006 November 26 Triple H, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, Matt & Jeff Hardy VS Randy Orton, Edge, Mike Knox, Gregory Helms, & Johnny Nitro 12/4/06 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy/Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Joey Mercury/Johnny Nitro No Way Out 2008 February 17 elimination chamber Survivor Series 2008 23 November Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, The Great Khali, & Cryme Tye beat John Bradshaw Layfield, The Miz, John Morrison, MVP, & Kane (18:13) in an "elimination" match. Michaels, Mysterio, & Khali were the survivors. 10/25/09 Chris Jericho/Kane/Tyson Kidd/David Hart Smith/Finlay/Matt Hardy/R-Truth vs. Triple H/Shawn Michaels/Big Show/Kofi Kingston/Jack Swagger/Mark Henry/Cody Rhodes Of the top of my head i have no issue losing Survivor Series 1988 November 24 The Powers of Pain, The Rockers, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Jim Powers & Paul Roma VS Demolition Ax & Smash, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard, Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov, Raymond & Jacques Rougeau, and The Conquistadors Survivor Series 1989 November 23 Ultimate Warrior, Jim Neidhart, & The Rockers VS Bobby Heenan, Andre the Giant, Haku, & Arn Anderson Survivor Series 1990 November 22 Rick Martel, Warlord, Hercules, & Paul Roma VS Jake Roberts, Jimmy Snuka, & The Rockers Survivor Series 1994 November 23 Razor Ramon, The 1-2-3 Kid, Davey Smith, Headshrinkers Fatu & Sionne Vs Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Owen Hart, Jim Niedhart, & Jeff Jarrett Survivor Series 1995 November 19 Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, Davey Smith, & Psycho Sid VS Yokozuna, Owen Hart, Razor Ramon, & Dean Douglas Survivor Series 2005 November 27 John Bradhsaw Layfield, Rey Mysterio, Batista, Randy Orton, & Bobby Lashley VS Shawn Michaels, Carlito, The Big Show, Kane & Chris Masters Survivor Series 2006 November 26 Triple H, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, Matt & Jeff Hardy VS Randy Orton, Edge, Mike Knox, Gregory Helms, & Johnny Nitro 12/4/06 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy/Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Joey Mercury/Johnny Nitro Survivor Series 2008 23 November Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, The Great Khali, & Cryme Tye beat John Bradshaw Layfield, The Miz, John Morrison, MVP, & Kane (18:13) in an "elimination" match. Michaels, Mysterio, & Khali were the survivors. 10/25/09 Chris Jericho/Kane/Tyson Kidd/David Hart Smith/Finlay/Matt Hardy/R-Truth vs. Triple H/Shawn Michaels/Big Show/Kofi Kingston/Jack Swagger/Mark Henry/Cody Rhodes These matches i will need to re watch, i report back if i think any of them belong and what merritt they have for his case. Survivor Series 2002 November 17 elimination chamber match Survivor Series 2003 November 16 Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Christian, Scott Steiner, & Mark Henry VS Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Bubba & D-Von Dudley 4/12/04 Triple H/Randy Orton/Batista/Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin/Chris Benoit/Mick Foley/Shawn Michaels No Way Out 2008 February 17 elimination chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I’ll end up watching the 80s stuff for the WWF reset. I love the Rockers though so no reason to think I won’t enjoy most of these matches. The good thing is that I have matches that aren't against Rose/Somers to get a better idea of how good the Rockers really were. 1988 Saturday Night's Main Event October 31, 1989 The Rockers VS Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard in three falls. 1989 Saturday Night's Main Event February 16, 1989 Anderson & Tully Blanchard VS The Rockers WrestleMania V April 2, 1989 Akeem & Big Boss Man VS The Rockers SummerSlam 1989 Rick Martel, Jacques & Raymond Rougeau VS The Rockers & Tito Santana 11/25/89 Rockers vs. Hart Foundation 1990 April 23, 1990 The Hart Foundation VS The Rockers 4/28/90 Hart Foundation vs. Rockers Wrestlemania VII The Rockers VS The Barbarian & Haku Survivor Series 1991 November 28 The Nasty Boys & The Beverly Brothers VS The Rockers & The Bushwhackers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 I don’t remember watching these matches. I would like to hear more about them before I invest my time in watching them for the hell of it. 4/?/91 Shawn Michaels vs. Kato WrestleMania VIII April 5, 1992 Shawn Michaels pinned Tito Santana October 27, 1992 Shawn Michaels pinned Davey Smith 3/17/91 Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. Perfect 8/1/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon 3/6/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith King of the Ring 1995 June 25 Shawn Michaels VS Kama 3/4/96 Shawn Michaels vs. 123 Kid August 24, 1996 in Toronto, ON WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Goldust in a "ladder" match 6/2/97 Shawn Michaels/Steve Austin vs. Legion of Doom 8/11/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind 10/20/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Owen Hart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Survivor Series 1992 November 25 WWF World Champ Bret Hart VS Shawn Michaels - This should not be on the list. Lifeless match with a dead crowd and two guys not ready to carry the load for the company. More interesting as an experiment of putting young guys on top and seeing how they fare. Shawn applied some long headlock segments but never worked them. You can blame Bret for that if you want but if your best offense is a headlock, the match is in trouble. WrestleMania XII March 31, 1996 Shawn Michaels VS Bret Hart - What a painful viewing experience. I can watch Curt Hennig and Nick Bockwinkel go for an hour, no problem. Samoa Joe-CM Punk? Check. The fact that there was one fall in 70 minutes makes this one of the slowest, least dramatic Ironman matches out there. It says something that these two guys were the best of the best in the company but couldn’t put together a classic match. How it got a reputation as a classic match, I would be interested to hear it. Survivor Series 1997 November 9 Shawn Michaels VS Bret Hart - Crap match with the most memorable finish of all time. Seriously, I have seen both Bret and Shawn have wild brawls with other guys… but their version of brawling each other (when they really didn’t get along) was fucking lame. This is my favorite era of HBK so I thought this would have been much better than it was but given I don’t like their previous two PPV match-ups then this is right there with the others as mediocre main event stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.