Jingus Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I was pondering this, and thought it might be worth a thread. Can any wrestler in America today be thought of as being a draw? It seems like the WWE does fairly consistent business no matter who's on top. John Cena is said to be the only guy who makes a real difference, although nobody ever really provides any hard numbers to back up those sorts of claims. And whenever he's gone for a while, business certainly doesn't go in the toilet during his absence. Meanwhile, TNA seems to be hellbent on proving that absolutely nobody is a true stand-alone draw nowadays. They've brought in a lot of guys who were fairly important at some point: Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Sting, Kurt Angle, Kevin Nash, the Hardys, so forth and so on. Yet none of those guys made a lick of difference when it came to attracting a new audience. Maybe one could argue that TNA itself is some sort of magical anti-draw which drives away fans who would be willing to watch these guys on any other show, but still, you'd think someone out of that list would have popped some big ratings or buyrates. Never happened. WCW on its very worst day drew more viewers than TNA ever has (for top shows, I don't mean comparing the ratings of the best Impact to some random 2000-era Saturday Night). So what's going on here? How has brand recognition somehow become more important in wrestling than the popularity of the performers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 The Rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Usain Bolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I was pondering this, and thought it might be worth a thread. Can any wrestler in America today be thought of as being a draw? It seems like the WWE does fairly consistent business no matter who's on top. John Cena is said to be the only guy who makes a real difference, although nobody ever really provides any hard numbers to back up those sorts of claims. And whenever he's gone for a while, business certainly doesn't go in the toilet during his absence. Meanwhile, TNA seems to be hellbent on proving that absolutely nobody is a true stand-alone draw nowadays. They've brought in a lot of guys who were fairly important at some point: Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Sting, Kurt Angle, Kevin Nash, the Hardys, so forth and so on. Yet none of those guys made a lick of difference when it came to attracting a new audience. Maybe one could argue that TNA itself is some sort of magical anti-draw which drives away fans who would be willing to watch these guys on any other show, but still, you'd think someone out of that list would have popped some big ratings or buyrates. Never happened. WCW on its very worst day drew more viewers than TNA ever has (for top shows, I don't mean comparing the ratings of the best Impact to some random 2000-era Saturday Night). So what's going on here? How has brand recognition somehow become more important in wrestling than the popularity of the performers? I'd argue Hogan is still a draw when it comes to popping a house for one night. That TNA show in London I went to, for example. Myself and my wife who has no fucking clue about wrestling at all and has never watched it, went for Hogan. There were plenty of people there purely for Hogan that night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hogan, especially overseas, where he's not seen LIVE as much, will ALWAYS be a big draw...whether he's in the ring or not.. As for US, draws today....I think CM Punk could be considered a "draw". But I don't have the numbers to back that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Got to think mainstream, mainstream on this. Who have normal, everyday people heard of? Rock, Hogan. Maybe Austin. Maybe Undertaker. I reckon that's it as far as your draws for people who aren't wrestling fans go. You know, maybe your dad or your mate who has no interest might go along with you "to see" any of those four. Reckon for males of a certain age, Warrior might also be in that bracket. As far as wrestling fans go, that is people who watch week in, week out, it's Cena and Punk. Maybe Angle. And a whole host of other guys I don't know or care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Drawing a PPV buyrate, drawing a house, drawing a rating, selling merch ... there are too many revenue streams now to rule it out without examining each one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I seem to recall kind things being said about Jeff Hardy when he was still in WWE. Nowadays, I think it's just John Cena though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hogan got new eyeballs on TNA, but they did not stay because TNA sucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hogan got new eyeballs on TNA, but they did not stay because TNA sucked. I don't think Hogan has been a draw that can keep people hooked on a product for a long time though. Hogan's a guy that on any given night can draw a house and pop a crowd. If he's been away, then fans will go wild for him for a few days when he comes back. You can see it in 93. You can see it again in 02 and again in 05. Then in TNA. Hogan is always going to draw as a legend. He has 4 wide fanbases 1. kids of the 80s, 2. fans of the Monday Night Wars, 3. anyone who watched Hogan Knows Best, 4. anyone who happened to be alive in the 80s and 90s. He's a cultural icon. That doesn't mean you can build a promotion around him. It means he'll get popped like a cultural icon and might draw on any given night in any given town. Apart from his heel run in 96-8, I don't think Hogan's been able to be a company ace effectively since 91. I really believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I actually thought Angle...but living in Pittsburgh, I hear about him far more than most I guess... Others here in the 'Burgh can testify to that...If he goes to court about a ticket, its on TV... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I'll tell you what it is with Hogan: the fans, the casual ones, are there for the novelty of seeing Hogan and that's it. They couldn't give a shit about the product. They are there to see Hogan for one night only and that's that. That's why he wont be effective. Obviously if the product wasn't a bunch of crap but something people might be able to care about, then it might be different. But mostly, the product in any given promotion now is a bunch of crap, so no one who isn't into wrestling is going to get into it by watching a random match or random show. Hogan can be the bait, but there's got to be a hook and a reel. If Hogan pops your numbers one night, that's AN OPPORTUNITY to put on something to make those extra viewers care about something other than Hogan. Don't see TNA doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hogan has been a guy who easily overstays his welcome if he's around too long since 1999 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Rey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smack2k Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Rey I hate to agree with you..but you may be right.. I personally don't like Rey or anything he's done in the last 8 years...but that is just me.. I guess the fact that I do like Greg Gagne's in ring work in the 80's doesn't help my side either!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I like Greg as a worker and think the High Flyers were one of the best drawing tag teams in U.S. wrestling history so.... ...having said that I think Rey is one of the best wrestlers of all time and think his last eight years were better than the eight that proceeded that. But more relevant to this thread, the guy has opened up new markets, is still a big draw in international markets and sells merch out the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Lebron James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think the concept of being a "draw" is really only applicable on the Indy scene at this point. My local group brought in John Morrison this weekend and actually had to reconfigure the arena to hold as many people as possible because the demand was so huge for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 ReyYeah, if I was gonna answer based on what I see at house shows then Cena and Rey are definitely draws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 So I was thinking. Which old-timer could come back and do big numbers for a single match? Austin for sure. Probably Goldberg. Sting vs. Undertaker or whoever else is one of the few unrealized dream matches they can still run. The Ultimate Warrior would get a good nostalgia pop against Heath Slater on Raw, but would anyone pay to see him wrestle on PPV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I think Austin is the only sure thing to be honest. Sting v. Taker means less and less as time goes on. That's not to say it couldn't be a big part of a big show, but does anyone really think if they put that on a non-Mania card it would draw a substantially larger number than the norm? Perhaps with the right booking, though I'm skeptical even then. As much as I loathe the idea, I think it is possible that a returning Angle could do some better than average b-show buyrates, though I dont' think he would light the world on fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nell Santucci Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Apart from his heel run in 96-8, I don't think Hogan's been able to be a company ace effectively since 91. I really believe that. I read a thread some time back that documented WCW's best buyrates to counter the claim that Hogan was one of the worst things to ever happen to WCW. Of the ten best drawing WCW PPVs of all time, Hogan headlined almost every one. Of the ten worst drawing WCW PPVs of all time, Hogan rarely headlined. The general idea that was extrapolated from the data is that Hogan was WCW's ace from the moment he entered the company and from the moment he left, despite the backstage problems that resulted from him. Without Hogan, there was simply no casual interest in WCW. By the end of the thread, I was 80% convinced of its thesis, but I don't know enough about WCW's raw numbers to say for certain that Hogan was the company's one and only ace (besides Goldberg). It's certainly an interesting argument because it's sort of a synthesis of Bischoff not being totally out of touch as a Hogan mark whilst still condemning Bischoff for his shenanigans during WCW's latter days in the Monday Night Wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I can accept heel Hogan as a draw and "ace" from 96-8, but the Hogan of 94-5 wasn't over with the WCW crowds. There is an argument to say that WCW's buys would have been up in 94-5 from the lows of 92-3 in any circumstance. What did the last PPV before Hogan's arrival do, vs. the match with Flair in 94? Certainly at that show there were significant portions of the crowd on Flair's side and that remained the case through Hogan's face run. Hogan was very stale in 92, and after a brief comeback pop also in 93, he continued to be stale in 94 and 95. Would love to see the figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 So I was thinking. Which old-timer could come back and do big numbers for a single match? Austin for sure. Probably Goldberg. Sting vs. Undertaker or whoever else is one of the few unrealized dream matches they can still run. The Ultimate Warrior would get a good nostalgia pop against Heath Slater on Raw, but would anyone pay to see him wrestle on PPV? Ventura? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Wrestling X Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 Yes, there are still wrestlers who are a draw, although maybe not to the days of old when arenas were constantly sold out, when Raw and Nitro were doing anything from 3.0 to 7.0 ratings and when people would pay to see the same match again in the next town. As for modern day draws, I'd say: WWE Full Timers John Cena Randy Orton Rey Mysterio CM Punk The Great Khali (controversial I know, but his presence on the WWE roster attracts a large Indian audience) WWE Part Timers/Non Wrestlers The Undertaker Triple H Brock Lesnar The Rock Steve Austin Shawn Michaels Vince McMahon TNA Full Timers Kurt Angle AJ Styles Jeff Hardy TNA Part Timers/Non Wrestlers Sting Hulk Hogan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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