anarchistxx Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Forgive the jacked up formatting here as I try to figure out how best to respond point by point, if I screw something up Good/fair response. Not sure if there is much mileage to be had in arguing the issue any longer, as the major difference is that you are fundamentally engaged by the character whereas I'm not - a matter of taste as much as a matter of argument. I do think Wyatt has potential though, and will be towards the top of the card for a few years at least, barring some truly terrible booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Neat point, regarding 80's Hogan and Cena today. I hadn't noticed it before, but you're dead on with that comparison. He talks as if he knows what's best for everyone, even when they don't realize it themselves. That can't help his rep with people that are already soured on his vanilla do-gooder act. Back to Bray - I don't think it really matters what specific sector of the audience they're TRYING to reach with the character. The important thing to consider is that it IS reaching an audience. Point blank. That's the end goal. He's got a connection and a large portion of nearly every crowd playing along with the story. People are invested. We're actually in agreement that Bray does a lot of talking but says next to nothing. I get that. Totally agree. But that's sort of the nature of the character. He's meant to be speaking in riddles and lyrics. He's meant to leave you guessing and wondering what the hell he just said, if he REALLY said anything at all to begin with. That's kind of the desired result, for the most part. Even so, when it comes time to shill the next big upcoming match or the point of his programs at their core, he can still drive it home and wrap it together in his dialogue. It's not all wordplay without substance or meaning here. I'm still not convinced that the guy doesn't have a presence, an aura, and a charm beneath all the scripts and polished presentation though. He's a louder, larger than life type of speaker that commands a crowd. He demands attention, and I've witnessed it firsthand. I usually watch shows with friends (casual fans and marks, for the most part), and I can tell you that they don't leave the room whenever Bray's on-screen. Furthermore, if they've left for a bathroom break, a smoke break, or a quick snack - then they rush right back when they hear the music or know he's on. The guy draws people in. You can't just ignore that interest or chalk it up to him being protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexstar Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Forgive the jacked up formatting here as I try to figure out how best to respond point by point, if I screw something up Good/fair response. Not sure if there is much mileage to be had in arguing the issue any longer, as the major difference is that you are fundamentally engaged by the character whereas I'm not - a matter of taste as much as a matter of argument. I do think Wyatt has potential though, and will be towards the top of the card for a few years at least, barring some truly terrible booking. Agreed. Hopefully they can iron out the issues a bit and make it work because I do agree it's a little off right now and I can see Loss's point that the heat is Cena-dependent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Yeah, never mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastic Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 I think Seth Rollins is a dark horse. People already have noted his resemblance physically to the likes of Punk and Jeff Hardy. I reckon if he gained 15-20lbs, toned back on the high flying stuff and worked on his mic skills, he could potentially go further then both Reigns and Ambrose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Great video about Connor the Crusher, http://uproxx.com/sports/2014/05/wwes-tribute-to-stone-crusher-connor-michalek-will-break-your-entire-heart/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 A lot of people, like our own Bix, have been espousing the idea that Kane is a great worker. I respect and usually seek out the opinion of Bix, Dylan, and a few others when it comes to pretty much everything in wrestling. On this issue though, I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing. I've never had any major problems with Kane, and I'd even go so far as to call him a decent to sometimes good worker, But, great, I don't see greatness in his plodding and repetitive approach to working a match. His character also does little to entice my interest, and at the end of the day I still only see Kane the decent worker as opposed to Kane the great worker. To Bix, and anyone else who shares his opinion, what is it that you see in Kane that elicits claims of greatness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steenalized Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 I think Seth Rollins is a dark horse. People already have noted his resemblance physically to the likes of Punk and Jeff Hardy. I reckon if he gained 15-20lbs, toned back on the high flying stuff and worked on his mic skills, he could potentially go further then both Reigns and Ambrose. So if he completely changed his physique, stopped doing what gets him noticed, and got rid of his biggest flaw, he could go further than Reigns and Ambrose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted May 6, 2014 Report Share Posted May 6, 2014 Seth Rollins will be on top for a lot longer than Roman Reigns IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 I don't even consider Rollins a dark horse, to be honest. I really think WWE is higher on the guy than ya might be thinking. Maybe it's because he's shrouded in the shadows of a super push for Reigns and a superior talker in Ambrose, but that shouldn't do much to discount Seth's own offerings. The guy's GREAT at what he does, and he's turned heads by being able to stand out with his stunts, flips, and dives already. That doesn't even begin to take into account that they crowned him their initial NXT Champion back when they first relaunched the series & rebooted the brand completely. For anyone that saw his run with the belt, he was over with Full Sail and treated totally like a star throughout his reign. I could easily see the 'E giving him the same backing & support in a solo run down the road. The immediate big priority is clearly on Reigns at the moment. But I don't get the impression that they're exactly going to sweep either Seth or Dean aside when it's all said & done. I'm just glad that they aren't in any hurry or rush to separate the group just yet. I still think the real money's in the collective unit. They're an ensemble. Roman doesn't look quite ready to take on a full-time schedule of strictly singles matches to me just yet. I can't envision him being as over or as huge a deal without that hot tag. Dean is JUST breaking into this AWESOME uncharted territory as a fiery babyface, which I never would've expected before. No need to stamp that stuff out when it's just cooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 That Connor video is just heart wrenching it's difficult to get mad at the company or the people running it after watching that video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 That Connor video is just heart wrenching it's difficult to get mad at the company or the people running it after watching that video This, 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Is Adam Rose going to be the new Fandango? Where the music is more over than the wrestler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Kane is not a great worker. Regardless of how well he plays the role, for a long time now he's dragged everybody down a number of levels and gets them less over than they were beforehand without gaining anything himself. I no longer believe Rollins is screwed once the Shield dies, they seem to be treating all three of these guys like they're the future, which is good to see, but I don't see him doing better than Reigns. We're actually in agreement that Bray does a lot of talking but says next to nothing. I get that. Totally agree. But that's sort of the nature of the character. He's meant to be speaking in riddles and lyrics. He's meant to leave you guessing and wondering what the hell he just said, if he REALLY said anything at all to begin with. That's kind of the desired result, for the most part. Even so, when it comes time to shill the next big upcoming match or the point of his programs at their core, he can still drive it home and wrap it together in his dialogue. It's not all wordplay without substance or meaning here I think the bigger problem is that, as a result of the saying nothing, the rivalry isn't very relatable and its not exactly easy for a casual fan to grasp what the hell "the message" is that they are fighting over in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1rweeze Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Great video about Connor the Crusher, http://uproxx.com/sports/2014/05/wwes-tribute-to-stone-crusher-connor-michalek-will-break-your-entire-heart/ Yeah it's cool, I totally felt like crying this morning. Seriously, wow. Plus I love that he hooks the leg when he pins HHH. Gorilla would've been impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 The biggest positive Kane has is that he's 47 years old and is still in really good shape and able to hang at a level where the in-ring style is more demanding. I'm not sure 1996 Ric Flair -- when he was the same age -- could keep up now without super hard training and heavy motivation. 1991 Terry Funk could have. 1999 Randy Savage definitely couldn't have. To me, Kane's shining moment this year was in his match with Bryan on Main Event. He did a low-angle dropkick, which is a difficult move and was something people raved about when Eddy Guerrero introduced it in 1995. Now it's a standard spot that no one notices. Kane doesn't have good matches very often because of overbooking and because his gimmick works against it. The same applied to the Undertaker in the early 90s, only Undertaker doesn't get nearly the same amount of criticism. And I would argue that Kane now is way better than Undertaker was then -- or at least better than Undertaker showed himself to be then. I'm not a huge Kane fan, but I do think he has positives that get overlooked because he's almost constantly booked in hokey angles and match situations and has been for nearly two decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 We've gone around with Kane before. Usually as far as I'll go is that he does have a number of good matches scattered across his career, and he's certainly capable of that in the right situations. I fight hyperbole when it comes to Kane, generally, though I did posit that Kane had a better 1999 than Chris Jericho (which is relevant since Kane was one of the people they pointed to so Jericho could learn how to work which made the people very angry). I would be more curious to hear Bix' defense. I'd suspect, it is in part that all of his fellow wrestlers/management think Kane is very good or how consistently over he is, neither of which are metrics we usually use much in this sort of an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Also, no discussion of Kane as a worker is complete without mentioning the Raw a few years back where Vince got weird and ordered him and Big Show to chain wrestle in their match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 I want Kane's retirement to be a completely bonkers summation of his entire storyline run. They should do a Foley This is Your life with Pete Rose, X-Pac, Lita, and the Katie Vick doll. Then have a bunch of guys on the roster come out to give him a beat down, but Taker comes out and (safely) runs them off, so they can do the kneeling tribute thing to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 I haven't rewatched them since they happened, but Kane had two singles matches last year (against Seth Rollins on Main Event and Ryback on SD!) that were as good as the best match he had with Daniel Bryan this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Kane is capable of the occasional solid to good match, the problem is the umpteen hours of garbage he has also subjected to, both in the horrible angles and also the tedious matches. He hasn't changed his style or offence in two decades. Add that to the fact he has been on television pretty much continuously since 1997 and the hate is unsurprising. He is usually mediocre rather than purely incompetent. His reputation would surely be higher if he had taken a couple of years off here and there to stay fresh. He is a strange case in that he had better matches with Test and Gene Snitsky than he did with Chris Benoit or Rey Mysterio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 That often happens with tenured guys in WWE. Matches with two captains sometimes don't live up to expectations. Both Bret and Shawn had better matches with Undertaker than each other, as one example of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 PWI is reporting .Kane will be taking time off after Payback. It will be a buried alive match Also they might do individual matches with the Shield v Evolution at the PPV instead of a six man. Can't see them doing Reigns v Hunter yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherspammer Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 Also, no discussion of Kane as a worker is complete without mentioning the Raw a few years back where Vince got weird and ordered him and Big Show to chain wrestle in their match. Was this in the Observer? I always thought Big Show and Kane decided to do that on their own, since they'd been wrestling each other for a few weeks in a row at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted May 7, 2014 Report Share Posted May 7, 2014 I want Kane's retirement to be a completely bonkers summation of his entire storyline run. They should do a Foley This is Your life with Pete Rose, X-Pac, Lita, and the Katie Vick doll. Then have a bunch of guys on the roster come out to give him a beat down, but Taker comes out and (safely) runs them off, so they can do the kneeling tribute thing to each other. EPIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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