Wrestlers you really dislike

[goodhelmet]

It's the holiday season so I am bringing the holiday blues to PWO.

It is no surprise I don't care for Kane or Demolition but more specifically, I don't care for Barry Darsow. I didn't like him pre Dems or post Dems. However, we already have threads created to discuss those guys. My hope for this thread is that it becomes a springboard to create more individual threads where we can discuss individual wrestlers such as the Dick Murdoch or Terry Funk threads. JVK slagged Dick Murdoch and it forced me to put in words why I liked him so much.

However, there are a number of other guys that I have see tons of while watching the 80s sets and yearbooks that I have seen praise for but that I cannot stand watching. The first one that comes to mind is Don Muraco. I thought Muraco Was actively bad in the singles matches I have seen in early 80s WWF. Jdw enjoyed the Backlund matches but I thought they were bad and not deserving of nomination for the new 80s WWF reset. His feud with Steamboat was easily the worst of the big WWF Steamboat feuds.

I don't want this to turn into a Kurt Angle/HBK/Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid thread so consider those 4 off limits.

[EricR]

I am usually really bored by Ricky Steamboat. I don't like his offense, sometimes he sells as if he's taken tons of damage just a couple minutes into a match, and a couple of his signature spots/finishes are amongst my all time least favorite (mainly thinking of the "roll through opponents' crossbody for the pin" which rarely looks like he rolls through but most often looks like he takes the full crossbody, then just flips over onto his opponent).

[Matt D]

Presumably, this is sort of a self-aware/PWO Conventional Wisdom thing thing, so we're not all going to go "I DON'T LIKE DAVEY RICHARDS" as if that's a big deal. Likewise Demolition since a few of us are outliers there.

 

Granted, some of that makes it tough.

 

And then there are levels. I think Flair's great. I just don't like him as the GOAT. For instance. It doesn't mean he's not great at what he does and that what he does isn't very impressive.

 

I don't think the Steiners early 90s stuff has aged very well. OR are we all on the same page with that now?

[Loss]

Carlito always struck me as a lazy fuck and I never liked him as a result, but I really may have been worked by his gimmick.

[Loss]

RAVEN

[Matt D]

Does anyone like Raven in ring? I think maybe 1-2 people on the board do.

 

I frigging love Levy in Memphis in 93 on interview/commentary. He's hilarious.

 

I really like the Levy/Sullivan shoot too since he's such a fan of Sullivan and it shows.

[Loss]

El-P is a big fan of Raven. It's really hard for me to name wrestlers I don't like, because I'm not someone who thinks about wrestlers individually as much as I do matches. I could name wrestlers I don't like, and they're probably most of the same wrestlers no one else likes. But I can probably also name matches of theirs that I like quite a bit.

[PeteF3]

After watching the NJ '80s set I'd rather watch 500 Tiger Mask matches than anything involving Shiro Koshinaka again. TM and Dynamite struck gold at least one time--the Koshinaka/Takada matches were just fucking mind-numbing. I guess objectively speaking Takada is as much to blame but I actually liked some of his stuff on that set including the much-maligned Cobra match.

 

If/when the Portland set hits I could change my mind, but I have very little enthusiasm for the Sheepherders and the more I watch the less upset I get about what they became in the WWF. Before they turned into shitty comedy workers they were shitty brawlers. Tellingly the best 'herders match I've seen is against the Fantastics at Clash II and it's pretty much a straight tag and not a barbed wire juicefest.

 

I don't think he's really seen as a superworker but he got some love during the World Class '80s set: I cannot fucking stand Gino Hernandez once he stops talking and starts trying to wrestle. Thought he was actively terrible in his singles matches and the tag matches were good by virtue of Chris Adams and the opponents. His matches were heated and he was charismatic, but all the guys in Will's OP are charismatic too.

 

I think Skandor Akbar is a pretty terrible manager in all aspects. No timing at all at ringside, tended to stumble or get lost on the mic, and that fucking Texas accent. That Devastation Inc. came off as effective as it did in '89 is a testament to the forgotten genius of Eric Embry. Give me Adnan any day--came off as more of a threat and was actually authentic. But Akbar's a southern wrasslin' staple so he tends to get most of the love.

[Gregor]

I don't think Dean Malenko is as highly regarded as he used to be, when he was considered just slightly below Guerrero and Benoit, but I'd still go as far as to say he's average or below average, at least in the US. He's athletic and capable of tons of really cool stuff, and it never adds up to anything for me. I like his match at Uncensored with Guerrero and the handheld match they had in Washington in 1997, and that's it as far as US Malenko matches I like.

 

I never totally got the praise for The Rock. Nothing in his matches ever really sticks with me in the sense that I can remember it long after it happens. With him, though, I'd still call him good and just say that I'm not really a fan.

[Matt D]

El-P is a big fan of Raven. It's really hard for me to name wrestlers I don't like, because I'm not someone who thinks about wrestlers individually as much as I do matches. I could name wrestlers I don't like, and they're probably most of the same wrestlers no one else likes. But I can probably also name matches of theirs that I like quite a bit.

I find it funny that we have so opposite a view of analyzing wrestling. It's not like we can't generally have conversations with each other either. I care most about trends over a large number of matches and elements to be found when matches are pulled apart. A segment in a match might mean far more to me than the match itself. And that same sort of segment done differently over a number of matches would mean more to me than the matches themselves.

 

Sorry. It just struck me as interesting.

[ohtani's jacket]

Great thread for the day after the end of the world.

 

I fucking hate Nobuhiko Takada, Jerry Estrada and John Naylor. Shiro Koshinaka I'm willing to give a break because I really like the Satanico match. The list of guys I don't hate but never want to watch another match from would be pretty long.

[Loss]

I look at it like doing math. I don't care if you count on your fingers, use a calculator or do it in your head, as long as you get to the right answer. I'm slightly more interested in how wrestlers get to a great match than I am the use of calculators, but the point still stands. What I care about above all else is the end result. I want to see results. I'm very middle management that way.

[Loss]

Great thread for the day after the end of the world.

 

I fucking hate Nobuhiko Takada, Jerry Estrada and John Naylor. Shiro Koshinaka I'm willing to give a break because I really like the Satanico match. The list of guys I don't hate but never want to watch another match from would be pretty long.

You by far have higher standards for match quality than anyone else I can think of. I don't even point that out as a bad thing. I just think you can be pretty critical. So it doesn't surprise me that a list of wrestlers you don't really care to ever watch again is a long one.

[Dylan Waco]

Exempting the low hanging fruit, I completely agree with Pete on Koshinaka. I've been told his 90's work is better, but dear god he was a pile of shit on the 80's NJPW Set and the few 90's matches of his I've watched since have done nothing to redeem him in any meaningful way. I also really don't like Takada at this point. There are matches he is in that I enjoy and even performances of his that I think are good, but as a whole I find him boring as fuck and for guys with the rep of "great" he's easily the one where I have the biggest disconnect.

[Childs]

Muraco is a good one -- just a real sack of shit who is for some reason beloved in certain corners.

 

The Dick Murdoch thread reminded me of my dislike for Adrian Adonis. Adonis had a lot of talent, and I like his stuff against Buddy Rose. But I found him almost universally disappointing in New Japan, and though he was fine on the AWA set, he didn't stand out there either.

 

I hate Manami Toyota. She could be phenomenal for five minutes at a time but on the whole, represents everything that bugs me about Joshi -- from the screaming to the racing through every damned spot.

 

I know this is completely non-controversial in these parts, but Brody might be the all-time "fuck that guy" worker. It absolutely boggles my mind that anyone ever thought he was better than Hansen.

[FLIK]

Does anyone like Raven in ring? I think maybe 1-2 people on the board do.

El-P is a big fan of Raven.

I would be the 2nd guy

 

Re the original topic, i'm drawing a bit of a blank.

 

Never been a Kawada fan but i've mentioned that a bunch in the past & don't wanna beat a dead horse. Never huge on Jumbo but I wouldn't say I dislike him.

 

Dolph Ziggler's a guy i've never gotten what the big deal is about. Good wrestler, i've enjoyed a lot of his matches but nothing about him screams main event guy who should be world champ and no self respecting true villan would ever write HEEL on their freakin ass.

[Dylan Waco]

Muraco is a good one -- just a real sack of shit who is for some reason beloved in certain corners.

 

The Dick Murdoch thread reminded me of my dislike for Adrian Adonis. Adonis had a lot of talent, and I like his stuff against Buddy Rose. But I found him almost universally disappointing in New Japan, and though he was fine on the AWA set, he didn't stand out there either.

 

I hate Manami Toyota. She could be phenomenal for five minutes at a time but on the whole, represents everything that bugs me about Joshi -- from the screaming to the racing through every damned spot.

 

I know this is completely non-controversial in these parts, but Brody might be the all-time "fuck that guy" worker. It absolutely boggles my mind that anyone ever thought he was better than Hansen.

Adonis is fucking bizarre in that I go back and fourth on him. I think he really dragged Murdoch down in North/South, but I like him a lot in East/West with a vastly inferior partner. I love his stuff v. Rose, but then Buddy is god and could have a good match with literally anyone. Fat Adonis is someone I have actually enjoyed more than I would have guessed, but I don't think he has many great performances from that period.

 

He is a guy I would have said was a for sure top hundred wrestler ten years ago, but now I really doubt he'd get there.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Gino was fucking awesome in the ring. He was just as much a dickhead as a wrestler as he was a promo. He'd actually go as far as to bite Kevin's foot to get out of a hold.

And Muraco was the man. He was a lazy, beach bum, bully slob who wrestled like a lazy, beach bum, bully slob.

 

I've pretty much disliked Piper since he came back after the Mania 3 match. It's crazy, cause I loved him for years. But from that time on he went from crazy and cool guy who really isn't that great in the ring but I don't care, to nails on a chalkboard guy who I don't want to watch wrestle, listen to on commentary, etc..

[Mad Dog]

Exempting the low hanging fruit, I completely agree with Pete on Koshinaka. I've been told his 90's work is better, but dear god he was a pile of shit on the 80's NJPW Set and the few 90's matches of his I've watched since have done nothing to redeem him in any meaningful way. I also really don't like Takada at this point. There are matches he is in that I enjoy and even performances of his that I think are good, but as a whole I find him boring as fuck and for guys with the rep of "great" he's easily the one where I have the biggest disconnect.

Funny you say this. People used to defend Koshinaka when I would shit all over his 90s work by siting his 80s work. So I guess I was right all along.

 

BTW, his heavyweight work sucks horribly. Stay away.

[ohtani's jacket]

Great thread for the day after the end of the world.

 

I fucking hate Nobuhiko Takada, Jerry Estrada and John Naylor. Shiro Koshinaka I'm willing to give a break because I really like the Satanico match. The list of guys I don't hate but never want to watch another match from would be pretty long.

You by far have higher standards for match quality than anyone else I can think of. I don't even point that out as a bad thing. I just think you can be pretty critical. So it doesn't surprise me that a list of wrestlers you don't really care to ever watch again is a long one.

 

It may be because I'm critical, but between every album I've yet to hear and every movie I need to see there isn't much time for anything other than new wrestling. I tend to go through phases in what I watch and I'm currently on a non-watching cycle to boot, but for a lot of workers I can't imagine seeing a match of theirs that adds anything to what I know about them. There were people who I was an uber fan of like Bret Hart of Akira Hokuto who I couldn't watch another match of without turning it off. It's like a closed chapter. I admire the way you power through those yearbooks.

 

One guy who I've heard people say they enjoy lately is Otto Wanz. Man, that guy is torture for me. In fact, German wrestling by sheer reason of the way it's usually handhelds and dark and confusing often gives me a viewing headache.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually I just thought of another and I feel bad saying it because he was always an interesting interview. But I really think Bad News Coage/Brown sucked. He was a good promo at times, at other times middling. As a wrestler he was boring as shit and often unconvincing for a guy who was a legit badass.

[soup23]

Gran Hamada is probably the most appropriate guy I can think for me in regards to this topic. I have seen him have some really good matches and I have no problem with people touting his influence but his in ring work gets really heavily pimped and most of the time I see him as a crisper version of Tiger Mask and that he also had a good share of off nights.

 

Surprised you didn't think either Muraco/Backlund match was nom worthy Will. I enjoyed the 60 minute draw a good deal but could see it as marginal. The last time I watched the Texas Death Match a couple of years ago, I thought it was one of the best matches in the 80's for WWF.

[Tim Evans]

I guess this is where I mention Mitsuharu Misawa. It's no secret that All Japan 90's is my least favorite type of wrestling style. Misawa just bugs me for some reason. I've seen him have good matches with Jumbo and Kobashi and I like both those guys. And that thing he does with his nose is annoying as hell.

[Jingus]

There's several different luchadores I could mention, but that's less about them as individuals and mostly from my general coolness towards that style. I just don't get it on an instinctive level, the way I get other styles that I like. And even then, there's fellows like Mysterio or La Parka whom I absolutely love.

 

Another vote for Koshinaka. Never did anything for me, and I really hated the ass-centric offense. That kind of bullshit is annoying enough in a comedy match, but the times when the "hip attack" is treated like a serious move are something that nearly enrage me. Fuck all that.

 

I kinda like Raven, kinda. I like that kind of smoke-&-mirrors style. He was one of the least athletically talented guys to ever become a relatively big star in that era, and I always appreciated how he stretched his meager ability to its absolute furthest limit and papered over the holes with hardcore bullshit that I enjoyed more often than not. And he was able to draw legit heel heat from the ECW arena crowd, which is not a terribly common thing.

 

Does anyone rate Gary Hart highly as a manager? His promos were okay, but out at ringside he was absolutely goddamn worthless. He wouldn't sell anything, the World Champion would punch him in the face and Gary would just stand there snarling like he's supposed to be an ultimate badass.

 

I've seen enough people call Justin Credible underrated in revisiting old ECW that I could probably name him here. He's one of those guys who never technically did anything wrong per se, but his entire act left me cold. Always felt like a guy who was cosplaying at being a top heel, as opposed to the real thing.

 

Along the same lines is Davey Boy Smith. (Not to the same extent, Credible never had a match that was even close to Summerslam '92, but in the same ballpark.) Technically sound, but about 80% of the time he damn near bored me to sleep as a singles wrestler.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't like Credible at all, but he really did try hard almost every night out. He's a guy I expected to suck a lot worse than he did in the ring, though as a character he was useless.

 

Really the guy I hate the most is his partner Lance Storm. Just an awful, awful wrestler.