Gregor Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 There's the SNME Rockers match that didn't make television. I think that the degree to which Bret took it easy it on house shows is way overstated. Not to call you out, Loss, but you've favorably reviewed plenty of Bret's house show matches - the Flair series, the Yokozuna series, Bret vs. Funk. To be fair, you were generally sticking to the highly regarded stuff there, so you skipped over some boring matches like his series with Jeff Jarrett. Either way, even without putting in the detail that he did to his bigger matches, Bret still had a better track record in his small show matches than pretty much anyone else did in the same setting. When I think of a guy who dogged it at house shows in that era, I think of Randy Savage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Oh, yeah, there are some bright spots for sure. But the Flair Ironman match was kind of a departure instead of his normal night-to-night working level. I'm not sure I could scour his entire Coliseum Video/handheld/MSG Network run from the 80s and 90s and come up with a bunch of ****+ matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I will say that if Flair would have peaked in Bret's era and Bret would have peaked in Flair's era, just because of the changing landscape, we'd likely be having a very different conversation. I'm not sure if we'd get the creative and motivated pay-per-view Bret Hart in the territories defending the NWA title, or if he'd perform his normal half-speed match every night that was just enough to get by like he did on most WWF house shows. Bret seems like a guy who liked to have a general layout in advance where Flair wanted to work completely on the fly, which would have been difficult in a 90s setting. It's hard to say how each guy would have adapted. It's hard to imagine Flair shining in matches that are meticulously planned in advance as big show WWF stuff typically was, but it's even harder for me to imagine Bret going in the ring with full freedom to just stay out there until the match was where he wanted it, regardless of how much time they're taking. Hell, Flair and Steamboat went into matches sometimes without a finish even worked out in advance except just a general idea of who would go over. I think I remember stories of Steamboat getting heat for going long on WWF house shows against Haku because he felt like the match hadn't reached a crescendo yet. I think Flair would have struggled with the mindset that your goal in every single match isn't to tear the house down and steal the show. It's hard to see Bret thriving in that environment, but it's possible he could have been motivated by having so much creative freedom. Are there examples of Bret matches that have fallen off the rails completely from what was planned where he had to think on his feet and go in a different direction that I'm forgetting? Did they really plan the Backlund match the night before KOTR 93 to go that long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I will say that if Flair would have peaked in Bret's era and Bret would have peaked in Flair's era, just because of the changing landscape, we'd likely be having a very different conversation. I'm not sure if we'd get the creative and motivated pay-per-view Bret Hart in the territories defending the NWA title, or if he'd perform his normal half-speed match every night that was just enough to get by like he did on most WWF house shows. Bret seems like a guy who liked to have a general layout in advance where Flair wanted to work completely on the fly, which would have been difficult in a 90s setting. It's hard to say how each guy would have adapted. It's hard to imagine Flair shining in matches that are meticulously planned in advance as big show WWF stuff typically was, but it's even harder for me to imagine Bret going in the ring with full freedom to just stay out there until the match was where he wanted it, regardless of how much time they're taking. Hell, Flair and Steamboat went into matches sometimes without a finish even worked out in advance except just a general idea of who would go over. I think I remember stories of Steamboat getting heat for going long on WWF house shows against Haku because he felt like the match hadn't reached a crescendo yet. I think Flair would have struggled with the mindset that your goal in every single match isn't to tear the house down and steal the show. It's hard to see Bret thriving in that environment, but it's possible he could have been motivated by having so much creative freedom. Are there examples of Bret matches that have fallen off the rails completely from what was planned where he had to think on his feet and go in a different direction that I'm forgetting? All this just says "Flair was a better worker than Bret" to me, which I consider to be pretty much self-evident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted February 21, 2014 Report Share Posted February 21, 2014 90's Bret (peak of career) wasn't even the best worker in the company he was in. I would say that Bret was the best worker in the WWF in the 90s. Bret vs Shawn is a matter of taste, but I don't think there are just a handful of people that think Bret was better... or really don't care for much of Shawn's work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 80's Flair (peak of career) was arguably the best worker in the world in the 80's. 90's Bret (peak of career) wasn't even the best worker in the company he was in. That's the massive difference for me. Bret was clearly the best worker in the US in the 90s. I don't even see how that's arguable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think Vader peaked higher, but Bret had a more consistent, sustained run. After 1994, great Vader matches are hard to find. I'd agree that overall, Bret was the best US worker of the 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Who else is in the conversation Charles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think everyone else in the conversation is clearly below them and has all sorts of strikes against them -- Michaels, Dustin, Austin, Pillman, Foley, Owen. US wrestling wasn't very good in the 90s, at least compared to what was happening around the world at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I feel like there are a lot of guys who are really in the discussion for the first few years or even the first half of the decade but then drop off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Not saying that you have to do this Loss, but I'd love to see a thread in which you broke down year-by-year who you think the best worker in the US is (for 1990, 91, 92, 93 etc.). Chad gave his 1990 award to Luger, I gave it to Eaton. Can't imagine there were any better workers outside of WCW for that year. But yeah, it would be interesting to see year-by-year picks. If you did the same thing for the 80s it would like just be 80: Flair, 81: Flair, 82: Flair etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I've mentioned before that it's a little harder for me to rate workers than matches. Maybe I'll be able to do it at some point. I'm not sure Flair would be #1 every single year. But I think he has a case for #1 starting in 1982 every single year. I hope the opportunity to do side-by-side global comparisons of wrestlers in the 80s happens at some point. *wink* I also agree with Matt's point that you have guys with early runs or late rallies, but not really anyone other than Bret that was around and at that level most of the decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Bump because I read 29 pages of this over 2 days, and if you can remove your own personal angst form the various stances taken in this thread (funny that the consensus, Flair, duh, seems to be the easiest least begrudging of them all) and just take the thread for face value, it is as compelling a thread as I think I've read on this site, and as nuanced and mature (as we'll ever get anyway) a discussion on wrestling, what is important, what isn't, and the nature of debate, value and semantics that there might be on all the webs. . . . no way the backlund thread was this good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 While Bret may call himself the Best there is I always felt Ric was the far more established better wrestler. Looking back at Bret's World title run in 1992 - 1993 it didnt really sound as good as what it was in comparison to Ric holding the NWA belt in the 80s/90s. Only thing I did find odd was why did they put Flair/Bret World title change on a house show that just happened to be recorded for Coliseum Home Video? It kinda ruined the element of suprise because we knew who won time it was shown because they kept hogging out about Bret taking the belt before they even showed the match which was something of a downer. Some fans claim it aired on Prime Time which it didnt, they never showed any highlights on TV before the CHV version came out did they? Would have made sense to book the match for SNME in October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Only thing I did find odd was why did they put Flair/Bret World title change on a house show that just happened to be recorded for Coliseum Home Video? It kinda ruined the element of suprise because we knew who won time it was shown because they kept hogging out about Bret taking the belt before they even showed the match which was something of a downer. Some fans claim it aired on Prime Time which it didnt, they never showed any highlights on TV before the CHV version came out did they? Would have made sense to book the match for SNME in October. I'd argue that the element of surprise was increased. Tuning into Superstars on one random Saturday morning and having Mean Gene bring out Bret Hart as "the new World Wrestling Federation Champion" was absolutely mind-blowing to my 13-year-old self. There was no internet then, and I wasn't reading the sheets, so that was the first I'd heard of it - and it was shocking. It was cool that house shows actually mattered for once - which seems to be something the WWF experimented with over that year or two (Flair beating Savage a month or two before for the title, Diesel winning the belt from Backlund on a house show, Money Inc. getting the Tag Titles with Jimmy Hart as their new manager while Natural Disasters turned face, there were some Money Inc./Steiners switches, and I think a Men on a Mission title change happened on a house show too). A random Flair vs. Bret match on SNME wouldn't have drawn much interest before the fact (IMO) - it would have seemed out of place, almost - but of course getting an epic title change like that on free television would have been incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Somebody telephone Jerry and tell him to avoid the board tonight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Walking dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Not that anyone cares since this thread seems long dead but I always felt Bret was better in terms of getting to the final destination of his match ups from a structure standpoint while Flair was phenomenal at filling minutes, I never got the sense that there was a good final plan. Even though both guys could rely on pinning combination finishes, I always found Bret's use more organic, more focused and simply more memorable. I can easily call to mind 7 pay-per-view finishes from Bret's that ended on a combination and all of them were different. Flair's tended to come more out of nowhere and while I can remember that a finish of his was a small package, I can't pull out the particulars like I can with Bret. Now, this might be simply a case of Bret's peak corresponding with my formative years as a fan, but I'm willing to make the point regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 Flair was much, much, much better at going out and just having a random match. Just arbitrarily going by Flair( age 40-41) in 1990 and Bret Hart (age 35-36) in 1993 because that's what I've been watching recently, Flair kills Bret. I haven't seen any of the WWF's 1993 TV shows besides RAW but I only have 5 of those left to go for the year and I have only made it through half of 1990 WCW's highlights, but Flair, was having awesome TV matches, even against people like Tom Zenk, whereas I haven't seen a single good Hart TV match. His work on the PPVs has been good though. At the same time, Flair's TV matches have been as good as or better than Hart's PPV matches. You could argue lack of quality opposition, but like I said, Flair had a great throwaway match with Zenk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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