El Dandy

[Loss]

Atlantis/Emilio from 8/92 has lots of armwork if that's something someone is seeking.

[jdw]

Dandy-Azteca has a funtastic first fall. There are loads of little things that aren't even touched upon in Daniel's response. Example:

 

Dandy at 14:57 (video stamp) blocking two of Azteca's attempts at a head scissors counter by burying his head into Azteca's left leg as it comes up. It's a little thing, flashes by in a couple of seconds, pay attention to something else and it's gone. But if you catch it, you're hitting the remote. If it's the first time that you've seen someone do that, it's a "What did Dandy do there?" moment that you're trying to figure out. If you've seen it elsewhere, you're in "Cool block Dandy!" mode.

[Jetlag]

OJ already did a detailled reply but since Mike from WKO was kind enough to type a response I'll c+p it over here aswell

 

 

 

Wrestling KO Mike wrote

I can't remember my PWO password so I'll just post my response here:

 

1:43 - this is the opening gambit, it seems like a drop toehold, but seemed overly co-operative to me. Why did Azteca pause before finally going down? Outrageously "fake" looking for me. I am also not sure about immediately going into "legwork" like that as the very first thing in a match.

Azteca expected a tie up but Dandy shot in for the takedown. Initially Azteca’s momentum carried him forward, a second later Dandy uses leverage to force him backwards. It’s a pretty common takedown.

 

2:06 - the escape from Azteca is far far too easy as El Dandy basically just rolls over when it's time for his opponent to work the hold for a bit. Another of those WTF lucha things that take me out of it. Only 2 minutes in and I'm already not really enjoying the work I'm seeing. The level of cooperation is too transparent.

He doesn’t just basically roll over. Azteca breaks the hold by applying pressure to Dandy’s ankle and then elbow.

 

2:41 - front facelock by Dandy into waistlock thing by Azteca, again, much too cooperative and virutally no struggle. I see this work as being really sloppy.

A very basic, common reversal that requires little cooperation other than not holding onto the facelock. Perhaps there was no struggle because Azteca caught Dandy off guard? I didn’t notice any sloppiness here.

 

2:47 - After that Azteca just lets go of the waistlock thing for Dandy to do the knee on the leg and hold that follows. Again, where is the sense of this actually being a competetive contest?

This was just a sequence of basic counters and holds. Azteca applied a basic hold which Dandy easily countered. Nothing more to it. At worst it was forgettable grappling.

 

3:27 - the hold is again much much too easily countered, however, as El Dandy just lets Azteca wrap his arm around his head and pull him over with scarcely any struggle at all. This is really so lackluster that I don't understand how people can say otherwise. Listless work with no sense of urgency, pain, competition, or anything.

Looked like a tight face lock to me. Dandy’s initial resistance was clear. Great example of struggling, competition and pain.

 

5:07 - here we see Azteca try to fight a bit more with some kicks, but once again Dandy releases the hold far far too easily at 5:24 and proceeds to just lay there as Azteca leisurely puts on a hold of his own.

Leverage counter.

 

5:49 - pattern continues, as Azteca gives way seemingly willingly to a body-scissors counter by Dandy. It's not a chess match between two opponents, it's a dance with each guy taking turns playing the girl willing themselves to be "led".

Crossface chickenwing counter.

 

6:04 - El Dandy releases the body scissors, which was always a very very loose looking one for ... basically no reason at all. And Azteca gets back on top. This is really bad stuff. Literally "your turn", with the guy on top openly inviting the opponent (aka dance partner) to take their place.

Dandy looked to be going for some kind of armbar but it didn’t pay off. I’ll admit it was a pretty weak transition.

 

6:35 - A note here on psychology. It was once pointed out that Dory Funk Jr has a habit of moving from hold to hold with no rhyme or reason. There has been almost no focus on any body part or even AREA in this match from either guy so far. The "narrative" is that each guy is finding escapes and ways to out-think the opponent, but this has been severely undermined by the sense of cooperation I've been pointing out so far. So we get a general movement from leg to torso to arm to neck from both. Everything so far has just been there eating up time, but by pretty much every barometer I'd look for in a match, it has failed to be "interesting" in any way at all.

Lucha matches rarely focus on a body part. They’re going for submissions for the most part instead of trying to gradually weaken body parts.

 

7:29 - here Dandy capitalises on his advantage by applying a chin lock, but where a guy like your Dory Funk Jr or Bob Backlund might lean in on this with his bodyweight -- which would make sense since Azteca CLEARLY wants to get to his feet to attempt an escape -- here Dandy ... gets up with Azteca which of course allows him to counter with a side-Russian leg sweep. Literally appalling work in my view. Sense of struggle: 0/10. Sense of logic from Dandy applying the hold: 0/10. Holds in this match have consistenly been treated as light transitions rather than ... attempts to control the match and inflict pain. It's basic, basic psychology that is ... entirely missing here.

Was a sleeper hold. Dandy wasn’t trying to wear down his opponent he was going for a submission. Azteca needed to escape quickly, which he did. He then hit the leg sweep, which Dandy sold really well.

 

10:18 - after a two count, Azteca once again limply surrenders his advantage to Dandy for ... no discernable reason that I can see.

I didn’t see that happening. Didn’t they just restart the action?

 

10:50 - one of the first glimmers of "interesting detail" in this match as Azteca tries to go for a Rick Rude reverse chin-lock and Dandy counters but putting his head down, so he can't synch in the move. However, as Azteca has his arms around the head so loosely (I mean you can almost see the air) that it's difficult to see how this might hurt anyway. This is the exact opposite of snug work. It's loose to the point where it looks fake. There is no semblance of real pain in a hold like this and it takes me out of things.

Azteca’s arms were trembling from strain, much like when Misawa locks in his facelock. There looked to me a ton of pressure and struggling.

 

11:30 - still in this hold, a good example of the "looseness" of the work I've been talking about at its most egregious. Again, my definition of "terrible matwork". You can see clear daylight between Azteca's arms and Dandy's face. It's possible he's trying to work the temple of the forehead, but this would be a very strange way of doing it. This is one of the worst and fakest looking holds I've seen in my entire life.

There’s supposed to be a gap where the guy’s hands meet.

[funkdoc]

yea, seeing the american style as the default is one of the big core issues here. i've seen it before, like when parv said an armdrag is a babyface move and he couldn't get over rudos using them.

 

i find that with understanding anything at a really high level, letting go of those "shoulds" is a key step

[JerryvonKramer]

I just put this on my twitter and will put it here too:

 

Dandy vs. Azteca: like I've said, everything needs to be relativised, you have to alter all your expectations. Different standards apply.

 

For right or for wrong, I'm not willing to change the standards by which I judge wrestling. I don't make special allowances for style.

 

EDIT: Special thank you to OJ for his very mature response to this. Appreciated, and I think I understand things better now too.

[Tim Cooke]

There is a Shocker/Ultimo Guerrero singles match from sometime in 2002-2003 (can't remember date off the top of my head) that has a lot of arm work as well. The 4/5/97 CMLL minis tag also has some of the more sustained arm work that I've seen in lucha (in addition to being an amazing match).

[Matt D]

I think I do somewhat better with lucha because I see wrestling as symbolic as much as anything else. The spirit of what's going on matters more than the execution. It has to be consistent within its own world and I have to buy into that world. It's also, in part, why I don't think I do as well with Japan. Which is a broad statement, but I'm still making it.

 

Frankly, unless it's as a way in, a skeleton key, I'm not sure suggesting exceptional (as in matches that are the exception, not the rule) to Parv is the way to go. While it's always good to find a match you like, even in a style you don't, it sort of misses the point. I call that the Brisco Bros vs Adonis/Murdoch rule. It felt weird to me to see that as the #2 match on the WWF set. It'd be like having Flair vs Magnum that high on the AWA set. Sort of an alien entity. You wouldn't rave about Flair vs Magnum or Briscos vs North-South and then say that you really liked a AWA singles or WWF tag match.

 

Sure, there are lucha title matches with a strong limb focus, but that just lets someone be distracted from the other things going on. It doesn't make someone enjoy their flavor if he didn't already. It's like putting a ton of hot sauce on something you don't like to make it palatable.

[funkdoc]

since i've been commenting on parv with this stuff, i'd like to add that i feel kinda similarly about matt d with japanese wrestling. "working hard beats working smart" is a big cultural concept there, which is why things like the modern NJPW strike exchanges get over; to that audience, the scariest guy is the one who begs his opponent to hit him and comes back harder in response. you see stuff like that in action anime/manga all the time too ("Genius of Hard Work", anyone?), and it's no coincidence that the biggest modern NJPW fans in the west tend to be the anime nerds.

 

so yea, matt not letting go of "brains should matter" isn't really any different in spirit from parv thinking "heels don't do armdrags". i see all of this as inadvertently bringing in the biases from one (sub)culture to judge others with completely opposite values and histories. i can respect not having the time to unlearn all of these things since this is just a silly hobby when you get down to it, though.

[Matt D]

One thing I personally had a lot of trouble with was the Bockwinkel vs Wahoo match on the AWA set, which people loved because it was very stiff. I tend to see stiffness as a tool, just like indy highspot headdrops or lucha matwork or lots of dives or hitting someone with a barbed wire baseball bat. It's very much about how the tools are used, no matter what they are (which comes back to the use of selling to establish meaning as the most important aspect of wrestling to me) and I didn't think the stiffness was used as well as it could be in that match.

 

That said, some tools "work" better than other and maybe not all styles are equal (which I'd attribute to Dylan, but I'm not sure he believes in copyright). Also, style isn't an excuse for poor storytelling and good storytelling can exist across almost any style. I do think we can come up with some commonalities that define "good storytelling," such as build and payoff, etc.

 

I'm going all over the place here though.

[BillThompson]

Art is different based on internal and external culture. That's why as much as we have things that we may think are important in wrestling, they can and should be malleable depending on the context of the match in question. If we're judging all art by one set of standards then we are doing a disservice to the art form being presented to us because we're not judging it as it is. Rather, we are trying to make it fit into neat little boxes that we have made before the fact. Art doesn't work that way, and art appreciation is just as much about understanding context and culture as it is about forming standards.

[JerryvonKramer]

I will say this also:

 

I am conflicted on this because there is something in my own stance on hip-hop that makes this statement about wrestling a little hypocritical.

 

By which, I mean, I insist that you must judge hip-hop on its own terms and by its own internal rules and not by the same standards you'd judge the songwriting of Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen.

 

By the standards of the latter, the lyrics of GZA from Wu-Tang Clan are just trite and shallow.

 

By the standards of hip-hop itself, GZA lives upto his name and is a "genius" of the genre.

 

I don't consider hip-hop against all the other music, I consider it on its own. But I recognise that to like hip-hop you have to "get" hip-hop. I'd never say "if you don't like hip-hop, you don't like music", because I can imagine certain died-in-the-wool fans of many of the great acts I like having a real blind spot for hip-hop in general. It is "its own thing".

 

And that's what is giving me the problem with this whole discussion really. But I think it might be reconciled by simply making the move of saying "Lucha is to wrestling what hip-hop is to music, only ... in this case, it's not for me".

 

And that seems to work everything out. I think.

[Matt D]

I'll repeat again that it took a lot of matches, and not necessarily 5* ones for me to feel like I had a handle on everything. I'm still learning too. I had to look for a lot of patterns in good matches, in not so good matches, in matches that happened week to week, in title matches, in trios, in trios title matches, in apuestas, matches from the 80s, the 90s, the 00s. I had to really figure out why they were doing what they were doing.

 

You can't do that by being selective I think. I understand that you don't have the time for a deep dive right now, but it's something to think about for next year. I have things on my list for post-march, too.

 

Akiyama, Hashimoto, joshi in general. Hopefully I can tackle a lot of PR before march, but if not. Etc.

 

But then you almost wonder "should I be watching a hundred hardcore blood matches to properly understand the norms and context? Should I be watching a hundred modern indy spotfests, etc.?"

[JerryvonKramer]

Matt, I know what I like in my wrestling. I like Rick Rude vs. Ricky Steamboat. I like fast-paced tags with Yatsu in them. I like stiff, tight, snug, well-executed work with storytelling, logic, intensity, and the illusion of genuine competition (with or without hatred). I also like suplexes, strong character work and crowd control..

 

I don't particularly care for high-flying, or dizzying crowd-wowing stunts. I don't like work that I consider to be loose or "fake" (and by "fake" I mean "fake within the absurd rules of wrestling which allow for Irish whips"). I don't like work that looks co-operative or like a form of dancing.

 

I gravitate towards work that is like the former and away from work that is like the latter. Towards NWA, All-Japan, the early 90s, 80s and 70s, away from modern indies, Lucha and Jeff Hardy.

 

Everyone has their tastes. And I get the distinct impression that my attempts to get into Lucha have generally just pissed people off. I don't want to piss people off, I want to talk about the thing I love -- the wrestling I love -- with people who share in that love. You can understand why I might be disinclined to carry on.

[Matt D]

My main point here is that I felt similarly do you do on various elements. We obviously don't agree on everything, but we do have certain overlaps. I was frustrated in that I didn't understand why people were so much higher on it than I was. I wanted to figure out what made it tick. Once I started to see the patterns, I found a lot to enjoy even on some of the metrics you listed above. I don't think you're there yet. It's okay if you want to cut your losses though.

 

I actually think, however, there are a number of aspects to lucha that you'd be more interested in than I am, at least in an academic sense. I think right now we are all in an environment of being on borrowed time which changes the way we look at almost everything.

[Childs]

I think right now we are all in an environment of being on borrowed time which changes the way we look at almost everything.

You mean because we're all going to die before all the good wrestling is watched?

 

I went back and watched Dandy-Azteca because I had to know if I was nuts. And I came away puzzled by those who see a lack of competition in the work. From early in the match, both guys (Dandy especially) were grimacing, straining against holds and steadily probing for counters. It was more of a skills match than a character match, but I saw a clear escalation of the offfense both within each fall and over the match as a whole. Dandy brought the higher-impact offense, and Azteca frustrated him by continually finding counters. The crowd certainly seemed with them and the announcers were clearly taken with the work.

 

I guess just chalk it up as not everything is for everyone and move on.

[pol]

It's understandable that someone coming from decades of inculcation into the American/Japanese style of wrestling is going to have difficulty appreciating lucha at first. The issue is when people come it at with the idea that the American/Japanese style is the norm and the Mexican style is a mutation with weird quirks that have to be adjusted to, rather than that all styles have their quirks and you're just more used to some than others.

 

Speaking of which, I'm curious to see when Dylan is going to drop his further thoughts on the "not all styles are created equal" talking point that he's been threatening to upset us with for a while now.

[Matt D]

 

I think right now we are all in an environment of being on borrowed time which changes the way we look at almost everything.

You mean because we're all going to die before all the good wrestling is watched?

Wait, you're saying you don't have a healthy neurotic reaction to the GWE deadline?

[Loss]

yea, seeing the american style as the default is one of the big core issues here. i've seen it before, like when parv said an armdrag is a babyface move and he couldn't get over rudos using them.

 

i find that with understanding anything at a really high level, letting go of those "shoulds" is a key step

 

It's worth noting that wrestling is an American form. I don't disagree with your overall point, but I don't necessarily think it's "wrong" to look at the American style as the default for this reason.

[Childs]

Another question based on your statements Parv: I get that lucha hasn't punched your favorite buttons, and that's fine. But do you really watch, say, 1986 NWA and 1995 All Japan with the exact same standards and expectations?

 

That seems impossible to me, or at least a difficult way to maximize your enjoyment of either. But maybe you really are able to maintain that. Or is it more that you know what you like and a style has to check a certain number of your boxes to work for you? I don't think that's the same as judging every match by identical standards.

[goodhelmet]

One thing I personally had a lot of trouble with was the Bockwinkel vs Wahoo match on the AWA set, which people loved because it was very stiff. \

 

That wasn't the only reason people loved it. Just one of many.

[Matt D]

 

One thing I personally had a lot of trouble with was the Bockwinkel vs Wahoo match on the AWA set, which people loved because it was very stiff. \

 

That wasn't the only reason people loved it. Just one of many.

 

From my perspective, the excitement stemmed from the stiffness.

 

Oh wait, someone really liked the gameplan that Bockwinkel came in with as it's a good example of how he often did that.

 

Wait again, that was me.

 

Everyone else just went nuts for the stiffness. You can look at the thread in the 80s set folder for it on DVDVR. That backs me up completely......

[goodhelmet]

From the guys who actually put the match on the set. The word stiff not mentioned once. Is it stiff? yes. However, 4 guys didn't bother to use that word when describing the match. Odd when none of us have a problem pointing it out or promoting the stiffness of a match. It wasn't the stiffness people loved even though it doesn't hurt. It was the aggression, the blood, the SELLING, the war-like atmosphere of the fight. The finality of the last punch. Heenan on the outside as we mentioned on the AWA viewing party podcast. There are tons of reasons to love this match including the "stiffness" .

 

Anyway, get back to talking about El Dandy. This is an old argument.

 

Dylan...

Wahoo is knocking Nick all over the place with chops and body shots. Nick spills to the floor and takes over with a totally out of the blue chairshot to Wahoo's face and then a corner posting. He follows this up by bashing Wahoo's skull right into the top of the metal poll that is holding up the roped barricades around ringside. Back in the ring and Wahoo is bloody and getting peppered by Bock. Wahoo fights back out of the corner with sick blows and Nick takes a Hennig like rotating bump on his head while holding the top rope. Nick is on his knees and eats a few chops for a nearfall. Wahoo charges at Nick but takes a big over the top bump to the floor. Nick sticks his head out for a cheap shot but Wahoo pounds him with a chop and comes back in on the offensive. Wahoo ends up getting reversed going into the turnbuckles and caught with the Bockwinkel sleeper. Wahoo staggers backward into the corner two times to break the hold but Bock goes back to it so Wahoo comes in face first sending Bock's head into the top turnbuckle. Bock gets tossed out to the floor and then face planted into the table and into the post. At this point something wierd happens with the edit on the DVD as it goes back to earlier in the match and repeats everything leading back to the point where Wahoo is beating up Bock on the floor. Wahoo catches Bock with a chop coming off the ropes and you really start to feel like Bock is on the ropes, though all the while Wahoo is doing a good job selling the toll of the match and the blood loss so this never feels like a real steamrolling. There is a double shoulder tackle spot with Bock falling to the floor. He picks up a chair and absolutely murders Wahoo with a shot to the head, before coming in the ropes and hitting him with one last knockout punch for the finish. This is complete and was an absolute war of a match. One of my favorite things I've watched so far.

 

Me...

Wahoo McDaniel v. Nick Bockwinkel - I want to compare this to Wahoo-Flair from Houston. Damn, Wahoo is kicking Bock’s ass to begin but Bock shows his own viciousness, posts Wahoo and then rams his head on a ringside post that looks nasty. Wahoo is bleeding and Bock attacks the cut. Fuck yeah. After that, this is a war. Nasty punches, hard chops, both guys selling the shit out of the damage. Later on, when outside, Wahoo gives Bock a receipt and slams Bock into the ringpost and table. No blood though. Shit, what a war. Wait, there was a fuck up on the disc where it went to an earlier point and Bock IS bleeding. Add the final shot at the end and THIS is motherfucking pro wrestling. I could see this as my #1 and I need to send to Phil to see if it goes on the next Schneider comp. NOTE TO SELF: Edit the match where the fuck-up occurred.

 

Phil...

Yeah this was a fucking awesome war. Feels like it is at the level of your super high end 80's brawls, and is the best match I have seen from either guy and I like both guys a lot. Schneider Comp for sure, unless we want to save it as a big release for the set.

 

Kris...

No DQ for the AWA World Heavyweight Title: Nick Bockwinkel © vs. Wahoo McDaniel (8/28/83) Wahoo is on fire to start as he has had two controversial matches with Bock the past 2 months so in this he is firing shots early and often. Bock would whack Wahoo with a chair though on the floor then bashed him into the post and barricade to bloody him. Bock is relentless working over the cut but Wahoo comes back chopping like a madman. This is nothing but a slugfest when Bock locks on his sleeper but Wahoo pounds him into the turnbuckle numerous times before he breaks free and Wahoo comes back with more chops then takes it back to the floor where he posts Bock and then bashes his head into the ringside table. Wahoo brings it back to the ring where he continues his onslaught until a double collision sends Bock to the floor. Bock then grabs a chair and nails Wahoo for the pin. This was an all out war with both men juicing and a total blast. Easy nomination.

[Matt D]

I think people tend to overvalue "violent wars," and excuse a lack of a strong narrative in them where they wouldn't in other matches that were laid out the same but with different tools used, but I'll certainly agree that this isn't the place for the discussion.

 

Back to El Dandy.

 

 

What I would really like, and this is if Parv is willing, would be for Parv and Chad to do a short podcast, just one match, with the two of them watching the Satanico vs Dandy match from 90 that Chad really loves, and Chad sort of walking Parv through why he loves it at every point. That, to me, would be interesting, would come from a familiar place where Parv can feel secure and safe and not under attack, would be channeling a real passion for Chad.

 

When I was first trying to get into lucha, he gave me that background for that match, at my request.

[JerryvonKramer]

Another question based on your statements Parv: I get that lucha hasn't punched your favorite buttons, and that's fine. But do you really watch, say, 1986 NWA and 1995 All Japan with the exact same standards and expectations?

That seems impossible to me, or at least a difficult way to maximize your enjoyment of either. But maybe you really are able to maintain that. Or is it more that you know what you like and a style has to check a certain number of your boxes to work for you? I don't think that's the same as judging every match by identical standards.

I'm interested by why that seems impossible to you.

 

To me Flair vs. Garvin -- to give just one example -- is as hard hitting as anything All Japan 95 can throw up. I feel like I judge across NWA and All Japan pretty fairly and evenly and hold them to exactly the same standards.

 

I do not believe All Japan 95 has different (as in higher) standards to 80s Crockett or even 80s All Japan. The guys tend to do more stuff and the style is towards excess, but I do not see Misawa and co as working on another plane to Jumbo, Choshu, Yatsu and co in 86, or Flair and Steamboat in 89, or Flair in general. They are all in the same sort of ball park to me. Billy Robinson in the 70s is also right there too.

 

I don't feel like I have to adjust anything watching any of that stuff. Ditto with Mid-South. I judge WWF stuff against all of that, and mostly it is found wanting because of the limitations put on the guys. AWA on the whole is not on a par with NWA or AJ either.

 

Each of those promotions had their own quirks, but there is enough commonality that I can compare across. I mean you get a lot of the same workers across them too at different times, which demonstrates the point.

 

World of Sport is a weird case and I often find it strange applying star ratings to those matches, or comparing guys who worked that style to any of the above. It seems to stand alone and be its own thing.

 

But generally, whether the date on the match is 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, or 2012, I judge it in exactly the same way. I don't really change what I'm looking for.

 

I mean, Pete and Johnny have accused me of being too fixed in my views of what makes good wrestling before in many arguments over Bob Backlund matches. I thought he worked too strong, was selfish and guzzled his challengers. They argued that you have to make allowances for the New York style and that I want every babyface to be Ricky Steamboat. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture.

 

I think I've always been quite consistent on this.

[JerryvonKramer]

As a side point, I also think that, for example, the All Japan style and NWA style have common roots and common influences. Harley Race and the Funks loom large as figures in the working style of both. The stiff chops of AJPW and the stiff chops of the old Mid-Atlantic promotion are also pretty similar. You could imagine what Wahoo vs. Tenryu might look like as a match. They all feel like part of the same universe,

 

Lucha, on the whole, feels like part of an entirely separate universe.