Can we just call Samoa Joe "that poor fucker" now?

[Sidebottom]

I always here about this Sting / Undertaker dream match, but to me it's picturing the Undertaker vs the 1997 - 2001 Sting. What do you guys think, has the window of opportunity passed on this one? I guess the WWE could quickly reboot the character to its prime look and feel I guess with a little well thought promotion.

[Death From Above]

What makes Joe's situation even more sad/hilarious is when you think back to 2006 and the amount of people who went "Oh My God, look at that guy in face paint playing a Samoan Savage character in 2006! Thank God Samoa Joe re-signed with TNA where he'll be respected instead of ending up as Umaga!"

 

Yep.

This is the first thing about Joe that always comes to mind for me too.

 

Don't get me wrong. I understand why people thought this way. Part of it was just a real belief in Joe, people who enjoyed him, who really needed to believe he'd be one of the things that made a real difference for TNA. Part of it was people that wanted to see a real alternative to WWE succeed, and again on optimism wanted to see Joe succeed for those reasons. Both noble enough desires for wrestling fans. Part of it was a lack of belief in the Umaga gimmick or that it would have long term legs. There's no way to know how that would have played out with Joe in the role, or where he'd be now, but it's fair to say he would have at least had a good run.

 

How old is Joe now? In wrestling terms you haven't been around that long if you haven't been around 15 years anyway. Is there any chance he could still wind up in WWE now?

[Death From Above]

I think Sting is one of the few people that has benefitted from the existance of TNA. I don't think he ever would have gone to WWE if they required him to work any sort of road schedule, so he's been able to have a second career working a handful of matches per year and getting paid reasonably well for it. Hard for me to call that a bad decision, even if a Wrestlemania match against Undertaker would have been pretty cool. And I still think after he's done with TNA, we could still see Sting in the WWE Hall of Fame, a Sting DVD set, etc.

I've never got the impression that Sting is a guy who keeps working because he needs the money.

 

That could be a faulty impression. But he strikes me as a guy that is really happy to be a big fish in a small pond for the sake of being a big fish, and that he has enough money put away that when that loses its shine he can go home.

 

He might have made some good coin in WWE doing the Sting vs. WWE Legend Series. Plus a DVD, maybe two. One for Sting pre-Crow and one post-Crow.

 

But I think he'd rather just be the big fish in the small pond, and if he's happy, so am I.

[MikeCampbell]

The other thing that I think people need to keep in mind, regarding the list of guys doing well that Bix posted, is that they didn't just magically walk into their present states.

 

CM Punk was crazy over before he even debuted in ECW, but had people backstage against him, and languished for over a year before they pulled the trigger on him with the ECW Title. He got the nod for the World Title in 2008, but was still treated like a second tier guy. It wasn't until the Straight Edge Society was getting white-hot heat that the powers that be started coming around to him. Then they still dicked around with him before finally putting the title on him at Survivor Series.

 

Daniel Bryan got the NXT losing streak, and then got released for going too far with the original Nexus angle. His comeback was a huge deal, and then the feud with Miz was great. But he eventually cooled down and started getting de-pushed, even after winning MITB. He eventually cashed in for the title, and got over huge with the 'Yes Yes Yes' deal, and followed up with the comedy with Kane.

 

The Shield are pretty much the closest example to basically walking in to their current push. But, remember, they've only recently started wrestling on TV on a regular basis. Their first match was at TLC, and their second was the the Elimination Chamber.

 

Claudio Castagnoli started with Aksana and that goofy rugby player gimmick. He got the U.S. Title on a PPV preshow, at one of it's lower points, and made it more interesting than it had been in ages. I'd call that match with Sin Cara many things, but it wasn't boring. So hopefully, he's out of the doghouse.

[flyonthewall2983]

I think Sting is one of the few people that has benefitted from the existance of TNA. I don't think he ever would have gone to WWE if they required him to work any sort of road schedule, so he's been able to have a second career working a handful of matches per year and getting paid reasonably well for it. Hard for me to call that a bad decision, even if a Wrestlemania match against Undertaker would have been pretty cool. And I still think after he's done with TNA, we could still see Sting in the WWE Hall of Fame, a Sting DVD set, etc.

I've never got the impression that Sting is a guy who keeps working because he needs the money.

 

That could be a faulty impression. But he strikes me as a guy that is really happy to be a big fish in a small pond for the sake of being a big fish, and that he has enough money put away that when that loses its shine he can go home.

 

He might have made some good coin in WWE doing the Sting vs. WWE Legend Series. Plus a DVD, maybe two. One for Sting pre-Crow and one post-Crow.

 

But I think he'd rather just be the big fish in the small pond, and if he's happy, so am I.

 

Sting had every right to turn WWE down once they marginalized and repackaged the WCW talent that had come in. I really don't think he would have been any different, unless someone like Flair (and maybe Hunter? did Sting ever work him when he was in WCW?) really vouched for what he could have done for the company if they didn't meddle with the character. Then maybe it could have worked.

 

Otherwise I agree that he's the rare example of TNA being good for someone.

[vicious&delicious]

It's a great "what if." However, we're making believe that Joe signed a contract for life with TNA 8 years ago. His contract must've come up for renewal several times since he first set forth in TNA. Why does he keep on resigning? My guess would be that he knows his spot in TNA. In the WWE I don't know what they would give him other than a developmental contract. Perhaps when his contracts are up for renewal he has been able to successfully leverage WWE interest into better contracts with TNA.

 

I also feel that Joe had the luxury in ROH and the TNA X-Division of working with great smaller workers. The second he started getting mixed in with TNAs past their prime heavyweights (Nash, Steiner, etc.) his stock crashed.

[Alucard]

What's the deal anyway? Does he just keep renewing his deal with TNA? How long is he under contract? I understood signing with TNA in the first place, but I don't really understand why he has stayed there so long.

He last renewed with TNA in December 2010, believed to be for 3 years.

 

How old is Joe now? In wrestling terms you haven't been around that long if you haven't been around 15 years anyway. Is there any chance he could still wind up in WWE now?

Joe is 34

[Dylan Waco]

I assume Joe keeps resigning because the track record of guys coming from TNA to WWE is not particularly good. He's probably never going to be a top star sort of guy at this point, but at least TNA is the devil he knows at this point.

 

I've talked a lot on boards and podcasts about guys like Sabu and Rey who were the last of the guys that really got hard pushes pre-digital age. You had to stumble upon them or go seek them out and it was almost the equivalent of a wrestling pilgrimage when you finally were able to track them down. Best of all they lived up to the hype from PWI, early net, newsletters, word of mouth, et. when you finally saw them. Those days are gone, but I will say that in some respects Joe coming to TNA was the last case I can remember of something like that. I remember when he came in I had been pushing him hard to friends that only watched/got WWE. This was pre-youtube explosion, so unless you were a hardcore fan buying tapes/dvds from some place you MIGHT have heard of Joe but you had no clue who he was. I actually called my brothers to let them know Joe was working TNA the night he debuted and called some others too. I had people calling me after talking about how great he was, how different he was, et. When Joe started in TNA he had that Sabu-esque buzz. It wasn't exactly the same, but he was the closest guy I can remember to hitting that point in the digital age.

 

He probably would have been more effective at carrying Ricky Ortiz...but so what?

Actually there is built in storyline here and I suspect feud with Ortiz/Joe over Ortiz stealing Joe's towel for rallying purposes (or vice versa depending on preferred face/heel dynamic) could have been effective filler for ECW relaunch.

 

 

I hardly watch anyone wrestle in TNA. But memory is people liked him last year in sprint tag match opposite Akiyama/Saito with the endless series of Magnus elbowdrops , and I've enjoyed his other indy stuff in UWF , N.EW, etc.

 

I'm curious why this question always comes up with Joe and never AJ Styles who turned down a developmental contract for TNA.

Watching Joe last year he showed flashes. Aries got a very good match out of him on ppv and he was in some fun tags. But really it was equivalent of watching West Texas Rednecks era Barry Windham. Older, lazy guy, who starts to care a bit more in new setting and is one of the better things about a terrible promotion, really is a pretty massive fall from versatile young guy, who was regarded as one of if not the best wrestler on earth.

 

That is also the biggest difference between Joe and Styles. There were people high on AJ to be sure, but I'm not sure anyone was pushing Styles as a best in the world type. From 03-06 Joe was a guy who often came up in conversations about the best wrestler on earth. AJ was always a few pegs (minimum) down from that.

 

Also worth noting that erotic face paint Joe, was about as embarrassing a neutering of any "tough guy" or "monster" wrestler I can remember precisely because it wasn't so overt. At the end of the day Khali busting a move is really the best use of his "talent," Cockfaced Joe felt like a case of adding something for the purposes of subtraction. Completely undermined his aura which was one of the last things he had going for him even after TNA booking, laziness, et had already started to take over.

[cm funk]

You're looking at 2005 through 2013 glasses. A ton has changed for WWE since then, too much to list. The biggest thing Joe would have had going for him is the same thing Punk had going for him at the time, which was that Paul Heyman would have advocated for and protected him as much as possible, and would have nurtured him down in OVW. He would have pushed to have Joe on his new ECW brand. I'm just skeptical that WWE in 05-06 would have done much of anything with Joe, with his look being the biggest reason why. I think it's more likely he languishes for a few years and is released or is just sick of the place and asks to be be released. Then he goes to TNA as less of a star than he would have been in 05, or back to ROH.

 

All that said, I'm sure if you asked Joe today what he'd do he would have given WWE a shot. And maybe he would have had success against the odds. I just don't think you can look at the current success contemporary indy talent is having in the company and say that means anything for Joe in 2005.

[NintendoLogic]

Speaking of Heyman, Joe would probably benefit a lot from the original ECW if it were still around. He could drop in for a few months, wash off the stench of TNA, get his mojo back, and show up in WWE ready to kick ass.

[tomk]

Do enough people watch TNA for their to be an actual meaningful stench?

 

If Samoa Joe and Manukea Mossman showed up tomorrow in Rugby Jerseys and Tiki Masks, and busted conch shells over Alberto del Rio and Sheamus's head.... is there a section of the audience who would bother taunting Joe with "TNA" chants?

[Dylan Waco]

Possible that they would actually, but setting that aside the stench of TNA is not so much a fan issue as a promoter issue. I.E. Vince is not going to do much with a "TNA" guy

[anarchistxx]

Thinking about it, Monty Brown is a good example of what would probably have happened to Joe. Silly name, decent push, fell off the radar, jobbed out/comedy skits etc. They are two guys of a similar size, ilk and background in terms of WWE thinking.

 

As I mentioned earlier, people are forgetting how fat the roster was back then, and how heavy it was on big name stars. Even given the brand split, it would have been hard for Joe to get a sustained, well built push with HBK, HHH, Orton, Batista, Taker, Cena, Big Show, Flair, Kane, RVD, Angle, Jericho, Edge, Benoit, Mysterio, Lashley, Booker-T, JBL, Eddie Guerrero and Christian working at the top of the card, not to mention special attractions like Hogan coming in for brief feuds. To put it into perspective, only four of those twenty names have been regularly active in the last couple of years when Punk and Bryan have started to get decent pushes. Back then, moving to WWE could easily be construed as a bad move, and nobody was too surprised when he chose TNA.

[Dylan Waco]

I would note that you can make an argument that WWE lower mid-card, undercard worker is arguably better gig than all but the absolute top of the heap TNA guys and was even in 2005. I'm not talking about money either (though I think that's a net win for WWE guys in a lot of cases too), but in the sense that if you have the right friends and are open to anything you can stick around for a long time (Stevie Richards, Bob Holly, et) and even if you get fired your name will command far more on the indie circuit than will "former TNA star!"

[Graham Crackers]

Thinking about it, Monty Brown is a good example of what would probably have happened to Joe. Silly name, decent push, fell off the radar, jobbed out/comedy skits etc. They are two guys of a similar size, ilk and background in terms of WWE thinking.

Brown went on hiatus for "family issues" and was released months later before retiring. Before all that he was part of the New Breed vs Originals feud and was as featured as any other young wrestler on ECW at the time.

[Dylan Waco]

Thinking about it, Monty Brown is a good example of what would probably have happened to Joe. Silly name, decent push, fell off the radar, jobbed out/comedy skits etc. They are two guys of a similar size, ilk and background in terms of WWE thinking.

Brown went on hiatus for "family issues" and was released months later before retiring. Before all that he was part of the New Breed vs Originals feud and was as featured as any other young wrestler on ECW at the time.

 

Which is to say "not much."

[cowboy hats]

haha i haven't heard monty brown's name in forever

 

more people should be talking about joe's tattoo

[Graham Crackers]

Thinking about it, Monty Brown is a good example of what would probably have happened to Joe. Silly name, decent push, fell off the radar, jobbed out/comedy skits etc. They are two guys of a similar size, ilk and background in terms of WWE thinking.

Brown went on hiatus for "family issues" and was released months later before retiring. Before all that he was part of the New Breed vs Originals feud and was as featured as any other young wrestler on ECW at the time.

 

Which is to say "not much."

 

True. I'm just saying this isn't a case of a guy in WWE undercard limbo and then released. He was involved in a feud that was represented at Wrestlemania, then he took time off and vanished.

[Matt D]

Do enough people watch TNA for their to be an actual meaningful stench?

 

If Samoa Joe and Manukea Mossman showed up tomorrow in Rugby Jerseys and Tiki Masks, and busted conch shells over Alberto del Rio and Sheamus's head.... is there a section of the audience who would bother taunting Joe with "TNA" chants?

Part of me feels like the portion of the crowd that would do that would chant ROH instead, but then I have no idea what 17 year olds are like anymore.

[Cox]

I don't know if anybody would argue that Joe would have for sure been better off in WWE, but I think many of Joe's contemporaries during the super indy era of the mid 00's wound up having better careers than Joe in the end, even though Joe was arguably the best of the group from 2003-2006, and all of those guys are in much better spots than Joe these days for sure. Even a guy like Aries is arguably in a better spot with TNA than Joe has been in many years.

[Jimmy Redman]

Basically that. And to tie it all back to the original post and thread title, more than anything it is just a shame that a guy with that much talent, and who had that much stock and promise at the time that Joe had, ended up with such a mediocre career after being almost completely derailed by booking. Especially considering the careers that his contemporaries ended up having. It just kind of went all wrong for Joe.

[jdw]

I'm guessing Joe has made reasonable good money for the past 8 years since he signed his TNA contract. We can't be sure he would have made that money in the WWE for he past 8 years, or even in a WWE + Post WWE career over those 8 years.

 

I can't knock someone in this shitty business getting paid for 8 years. Bird in the hand.

[EricR]

Even if he had gone to WWE and failed, he then could have signed with TNA for even more money and be pushed even harder as a "former WWE star".

[Ditch]

Plus nobody in WWE does concrete dropkicks. Alternate universe Joe wouldn't be broken down from that bump.

 

 

 

 

(he'd be broken down from years of non-stop tours)

[tomk]

Even if he had gone to WWE and failed, he then could have signed with TNA for even more money and be pushed even harder as a "former WWE star".

I didn't see TNA rushing to sign Bam Neely, Brad Allen, or James Curtis.

They were reluctant to bring back Braden Walker.

 

Plus nobody in WWE does concrete dropkicks. Alternate universe Joe wouldn't be broken down from that bump.

Not from that one, but again is dying from acute toxicity better than a leg injury?

We all saw HHH in a handicap match against Umaga and Carlito where Umaga ate huge numbers of reckless chairshots.

Samoa Joe was a guy who would have been willing to prove himself by sacrificing his body no matter where he ended up.

 

Basically that. And to tie it all back to the original post and thread title, more than anything it is just a shame that a guy with that much talent, and who had that much stock and promise at the time that Joe had, ended up with such a mediocre career after being almost completely derailed by booking. Especially considering the careers that his contemporaries ended up having

People who followed indy wrestling a generation earlier thought it was a shame when legit indy heavyweights (guys over 230 but shorter than Edge) Joey Abs and Mike Maverick/Jack Dupp had such mediocre careers considering the careers of their tiny contemporaries Joey Mathews and Shane Helms.

 

But at this point there is no reason for anyone to be surprised.

For a guy who is over 230 but under 6'2", Joe has carved himself a decent paying career.