Were the Death of the Territories in the 80s Inevitable?

[KrisZ]

The way JCP booked up until Dusty came in was they split their territory itself up in 3 states

 

Virginia

North Carolina

South Carolina

 

Each state had their own booker at times and they would shift the talent around while running the main angles from TV and city centric angles.

 

If you want to go with the JCP/GCW/CWF merger then with that NYC TV time you do a show just for that market showing matches from the 3 territories showing the top stars that you want to bring in for the monthly shows.

 

What I meant by circuits is that you have crews just for the certain circuits where they work that circuit specifically during the week while the top guys or whatever works the weekend special shows while on the weekends on the circuits the guys that didn't make the major towns got a chance to main event instead of working 2nd or 3rd from the top.

 

Now regarding weekend shows this is how I would set it up.

 

Weekend #1 = New York/Philly/DC & Baltimore on the same day

Weekend #2 = Norfolk/Richmond/Charlotte & Greensboro on the same day

Weekend #3 = Knoxville/Atlanta/Jacksonville

Weekend #4 = Tampa/Orlando/Miami

 

That leaves Monday-Thursday to hit up your other towns in the circuit and you tape your TV on Wednesdays at whatever town.

[Bix]

It was the complete CWF show with WWF promos where CWF promos would be.

Right, I know that. I'm asking who actually controlled the time slot.

[KrisZ]

I have no idea on that question although I think they may have started airing it due to Dusty's popularity

[Bix]

I have no idea on that question although I think they may have started airing it due to Dusty's popularity

I thought it was the other way around, that Dusty was brought in off the Florida TV's popularity in NY.

[KrisZ]

You're right I got it mixed up. I'm guessing maybe since so many New Yorkers were wintering in Florida that might have had something to do with it

[JerryvonKramer]

All of this stuff is really good and I'm grateful for it.

 

2. I find this notion of a town "dying" strange. Everyone always says that Detroit was completely dead by the end of the 70s. How does that happen? In the US does this ever happen with other sports? I mean let's say if someone ran a show in Detroit in 1980 were the people there just totally against the notion of going to a wrestling show? Were they actively anti-wrestling?

Territories and cities die. It's always happened in the history of wrestling. Even New York died in the late 30s and took more than a decade to rebuild.

 

It's common any just about everything. Products die. Sports teams die. Televisions networks go in the tank (look at most of NBC). Etc. There's no reason to think this doesn't happen in wrestling.

Just wondering how it happens. For example, the Detroit example says Sheik pissed off the fans by being an unbeatable heel for too long. So when someone else tries to promote a show 3 years later without the Sheik on the card, what's stopping people from going? Every person in the city is just completely turned off wrestling and won't even entertain going to a show?

 

When long-lasting products die, it's often because something else comes along to take their spot and they can no longer compete. For example, in this country old-fashioned plate-service chain restaurants (see Wimpy, Lyons Corner Houses) were killed by fast food once McDonalds turned up -- just as Music Hall was killed by radio and TV. The product goes out of favour because it didn't move with the times, not because anyone had ill will towards it. Indeed, the passing of the product is met with a feeling of sadness and you'd expect to see campaigns to save it.

 

The wrestling burnout example isn't like that -- the logic is that the promoter breeds ill will in the fans and turns them off the product and then, somehow, that ill will stays for a number of years to "kill" the town.

 

I cannot think of examples of sports teams dying due to low crowd turnout bred from ill will. Most football clubs here have been running for almost a century and failures come down to financial mismanagement such as overspending on players (see Portsmouth). This is why I asked if things are different in the US. Which sports clubs died from breeding ill will?

[Johnny Sorrow]

The difference between a real sports team and wrestling is is that wrestling is fake. To keep people coming back to local shows was the same thing as keeping people coming to the Ice Capades or Harlem Globetrotters shows. You killed a town back then by putting on a show no one wanted to go to anymore for whatever reason.

[sek69]

I think another factor in the territories dying as quickly as they did was their complete inability to work together once it became clear Vince was going national. First they all seemed to have their heads in the sand thinking the WWF would fail, and once it started to become obvious they weren't you had things like Pro Wrestling USA only running shows for a couple months and Verne screwing Memphis and WCCW at SuperClash III.

 

They couldn't get out of their own way long enough to ever really give Vince a run for his money.

[khawk20]

You killed a town back then by putting on a show no one wanted to go to anymore for whatever reason.

Add Vince winning a town as another form of killing it. As Vince took over in the Midwest from Verne, there were instances of markets with monthly shows with local angles and interviews being turned into markets with generic TV and maybe 3-4 house shows a year (sometimes less), with cookie cutter matches that went around the horn.

 

Winnipeg is the example closest to me and the first one that I always think of. Vince killed it for wrestling after January of 1986 quickly. It was a case of Vince wanting it badly to hurt Verne and the AWA, but once he had it he didn't seem to care about sustaining it and it's fan base. The Twin Cities were similar to this, not the same but with a similar effect as Vince slowly pushed Verne out through the 80's.

[JerryvonKramer]

Frisco died pretty much with the Buddy Rose incident.

Apologies if this is covered on this board already somewhere, but what is this?

[Dylan Waco]

Buddy got pissed at Shire and came down to the ring and cut a shoot promo about how all the favorites don't work San Fran anymore because Shire is a liar and a fraud (among other things).

 

Also for a sports club in the states that died for pissing off the fans, the Charlotte Hornets come to mind.

 

I'll comment more on "dying towns" later when I get off work

[WingedEagle]

When did the Buddy SF incident occur?

[WingedEagle]

Just wondering how it happens. For example, the Detroit example says Sheik pissed off the fans by being an unbeatable heel for too long. So when someone else tries to promote a show 3 years later without the Sheik on the card, what's stopping people from going? Every person in the city is just completely turned off wrestling and won't even entertain going to a show?

Without being too simplistic, just look at WCW. The booking, creative and in-ring became so awful that they quickly went from selling out Domes for TV to doing ECW numbers on PPV. I can't recall the details on why various places lost it without looking it up, but commonly a combo of poor booking, stars leaving and a superior product being spelling the end. The weight of each can vary in a given situation, but it doesn't happen while the territory is on fire that fans just stop showing up after a hot show.

[pmo]

All of this stuff is really good and I'm grateful for it.

 

2. I find this notion of a town "dying" strange. Everyone always says that Detroit was completely dead by the end of the 70s. How does that happen? In the US does this ever happen with other sports? I mean let's say if someone ran a show in Detroit in 1980 were the people there just totally against the notion of going to a wrestling show? Were they actively anti-wrestling?

Territories and cities die. It's always happened in the history of wrestling. Even New York died in the late 30s and took more than a decade to rebuild.

 

It's common any just about everything. Products die. Sports teams die. Televisions networks go in the tank (look at most of NBC). Etc. There's no reason to think this doesn't happen in wrestling.

Just wondering how it happens. For example, the Detroit example says Sheik pissed off the fans by being an unbeatable heel for too long. So when someone else tries to promote a show 3 years later without the Sheik on the card, what's stopping people from going? Every person in the city is just completely turned off wrestling and won't even entertain going to a show?

 

When long-lasting products die, it's often because something else comes along to take their spot and they can no longer compete. For example, in this country old-fashioned plate-service chain restaurants (see Wimpy, Lyons Corner Houses) were killed by fast food once McDonalds turned up -- just as Music Hall was killed by radio and TV. The product goes out of favour because it didn't move with the times, not because anyone had ill will towards it. Indeed, the passing of the product is met with a feeling of sadness and you'd expect to see campaigns to save it.

 

The wrestling burnout example isn't like that -- the logic is that the promoter breeds ill will in the fans and turns them off the product and then, somehow, that ill will stays for a number of years to "kill" the town.

 

I cannot think of examples of sports teams dying due to low crowd turnout bred from ill will. Most football clubs here have been running for almost a century and failures come down to financial mismanagement such as overspending on players (see Portsmouth). This is why I asked if things are different in the US. Which sports clubs died from breeding ill will?

 

 

There were two good story Cornette gave in his 1st shoot about Territories dying. The first when Jerry Jarrett tried to bring Memphis TV to Cincinatti. He talked with one of the local station managers who basically popped in a tape of the Sheik's program at it's worst (according to Cornette, the Sheik was doing the snake gimmick and the snake looked dead plus a ton of bad looking blading, everyone is old). The program manager then said this is why I won't have professional wrestling.

 

Another story was the drastic change in reaction of folks in Dallas from when Cornette worked during the heyday of World Class vs going in with Crockett after all of the tragedies had gone on. Basically it went from something everyone was talking about and excited for to some "ahhh this is something we used to do."

 

To put it another way to kill something dead, the product has to be so bad and offensive that it just turns the fans off to the sport entirely. With the Sheik, it was so bad and schlocky that it was embarrassing to watch. World Class with the Von Erich deaths and exploitative aspect of it just turned off a generation of Dallas wrestling fan. WCW was the late Bischoff/Russo eras that was so bad it just made people stop caring period.

 

On a personal level a good example of this is when I was in college freshman year, 99, my buddy was a huge old school NWA/WCW fan (PWI almanacs, tape collection, Etc) and really preferred it to the WWF. When Lyger came in during the Russo era he was so excited to watch Nitro that instead of switching back and forth, he went to his dorm just to watch Lyger. Needless to say that was the Lyger/Juvy bottle of tequila angle. It just killed the joy of watching it for him By the time we got back to school for Sophomore year he no longer watched much wrestling. I would have to bribe him with a Crockett Cup tape I rented or something like that.

 

To kill a territory it has to not just be bad, but bad enough to piss off the hardcore fans. While one can argue you don't want to always appeal to the hardcores, you need to do enough to keep them happy. To drive them out you have do a series of things that are so extremely offensive (Mike Von Erich living mircle/ Fritz Heart attack)/embarrassing (50 yr old Sheik and Bobo) that it would drive away the fan and/or make them not care.

 

A good football reference would be Wimbledon/MK Dons franchise and the fans reactions to their moving (basically we don't care just leave) might be a better comparison than Pompey.

[khawk20]

To kill a territory it has to not just be bad, but bad enough to piss off the hardcore fans.

The Ultimate Warrior-Papa Shango voodoo angle made me turn off TV wrestling for several years, and I was the last guy that I ever thought that could happen to.

[Matt D]

Me too, but that's because I was a 10 year old kid and legit scared by it. It made wrestling no longer fun to me. I was a wuss.

[Ricky Jackson]

When did the Buddy SF incident occur?

Looking at Meltzer's Rose bio, it seems June 8, 1979 at the Cow Palace was the date of the incident. For context, Rose had been wrestling in SF since around mid-1978. The last episode of "Big Time Wrestling" taped in Sacramento aired March 19, 1979. Thereafter, "Big Time Wrestling" from Portland (yes, the show had the same name) aired in the time slot and Shire used Portland talent for his Cow Palace shows. Attendance for these shows wasn't very good though, and Shire began having problems with Owen and the Portland guys. Portland guys were no-showing dates during this time as well. On top of all this apparently the Amarillo territory of all places (now owned by Blackjack Mulligan and Dick Murdoch) had TV in San Fran and were running shows in towns Shire had abandoned. Anyway, things were very tense at the time and Rose wasn't being paid what he felt he was owed, which led to the shoot promo. It looks as though the incident was the last straw for Shire and Owen, and Portland Wrestling was replaced by "All Star Wrestling" from KC. This was a total disaster, and crowds at the Cow Palace plunged to less than 500 at times. Shire finally pulled the plug after the January 1981 Battle Royal show (which actually drew 6,000, as the Battle Royal card was annually the biggest show of the year in SF).

[jdw]

Just wondering how it happens. For example, the Detroit example says Sheik pissed off the fans by being an unbeatable heel for too long.

I'm not even sold that Sheik "pissed off" the fans. They'd just seen it all for a decade. At some point people move on.

 

 

So when someone else tries to promote a show 3 years later without the Sheik on the card, what's stopping people from going?

Wrestlemania 3 was in Detroit, because it was one of the WWF's hottest cities at the time. Being "dead" doesn't mean in business something is "dead forever".

 

Every person in the city is just completely turned off wrestling and won't even entertain going to a show?

I don't think anyone said every person turned off. But how many promotions in those days survive drawing 1000 a show in their major market? Doubt any did in the 70s. And "1000" doesn't mean the same 1000 come every show. When people move on from / turn off to the product, they often pick and chose the show they go to based on other things in life and/or the card interesting them.

 

 

When long-lasting products die, it's often because something else comes along to take their spot and they can no longer compete. For example, in this country old-fashioned plate-service chain restaurants (see Wimpy, Lyons Corner Houses) were killed by fast food once McDonalds turned up -- just as Music Hall was killed by radio and TV. The product goes out of favour because it didn't move with the times, not because anyone had ill will towards it.

Falling out of favor is a form of ill will: people don't give a shit about it any more.

 

We had a wave of Frozen Yogurt stores in the US in the late 80s or early 90s. It was the next big thing. If I gave a shit enough about the product, I could probably remember the 1-2 major chains that everyone was trying to get a franchise from. I'm sure there are still some out there, but it's long since passed it's "Hot Niche Store" days, and a lot of guys who got franchises went bust because... far fewer people give a shit about it.

 

Did anything come to take its place? Not really. It's not like Ice Cream made a huge comeback.

 

Did people loath hate-Hate-HATE the concept? Not really. The masses just stopped giving a shit about it in terms of going regularly.

 

Again, there are still stores out there, and someone is probably doing decent business here and there. But at it's peak, it was a hot as freaking Starbucks and Coffee joints.

 

 

Indeed, the passing of the product is met with a feeling of sadness and you'd expect to see campaigns to save it.

This is often *not* the case. I don't think there are any campaigns to save Oles / Ace Hardware. People moved on to Home Depot.

 

 

The wrestling burnout example isn't like that -- the logic is that the promoter breeds ill will in the fans and turns them off the product and then, somehow, that ill will stays for a number of years to "kill" the town.

It doesn't even take a number of years. Things can flip on a promotion quickly. The WWF was drawing with Hogan. Hogan left in 1992 and the business went in the shitter. It wasn't because people had ill will towards the product. It's because they were Hulk Hogan Fans. Vince then went on a quest to find his Next Hogan, and actually failed to create it. Instead, Stone Cold just happened and there was the equiv of Hogan.

 

WCW went in the tank amazingly fast. Kris in the Vince & Hogan vs The World showed some towns that went in the tank fast.

 

Same goes for products. Borders was doing good "revenue" numbers. Then the shit hit, expenses and loans were brutal, revenue didn't grow, then revenues dipped and it went fast. Lots of business have that happen, as do lots of products.

 

 

I cannot think of examples of sports teams dying due to low crowd turnout bred from ill will.

There's a reason the St Louis Browns moved to Baltimore. Crows sucked. They had for ages, but there also was something of a taboo of moving franchises. So when the Boston Braves moved to Milwaukee, that opened the floodgates. The Browns moved. The A's moved. The Dodgers and Giants moved, even as the Dodgers were the most "successful" team in the National League... while attendance went down. LA of course was great for them. The Senators moved. The A's and Braves moved again... the second Senators moved. Etc. In a sense, all of those franchise died in their cities and moved elsewhere.

 

Happened in other sports.

 

 

Most football clubs here have been running for almost a century and failures come down to financial mismanagement such as overspending on players (see Portsmouth).

In a sense, many of those football clubs have died several times. They've been saved by new owners buying them and carrying them. The Owls would be a dead club unless someone bought them.

 

 

This is why I asked if things are different in the US. Which sports clubs died from breeding ill will?

My thought would be to not get hung up on concepts like "ill will". Products, clubs, businesses die for all sorts of reason. They almost always fall into two buckets, which often overlaps:

 

* management fucks up

* people stop giving as much of a shit about the product

 

John

[jdw]

To kill a territory it has to not just be bad, but bad enough to piss off the hardcore fans. While one can argue you don't want to always appeal to the hardcores, you need to do enough to keep them happy. To drive them out you have do a series of things that are so extremely offensive (Mike Von Erich living mircle/ Fritz Heart attack)/embarrassing (50 yr old Sheik and Bobo) that it would drive away the fan and/or make them not care.

I don't think Dallas fans were offended away.

 

Business wasn't great before the Birds came in. Things like Flair might spike a good card, but overall business was just there. It wasn't dead, the Vin Erichs made money, but it wasn't hot or making money hand over fist.

 

Then things got hot. And they had a hot run. It's wasn't 100% hot all through 1983 and 1984 and 1985, so anyone saying they played to 100% capacity for three straight years is full of shit. But... it was a hot territory with a lot of wrestlers, storylines, feuds and matches that fans liked.

 

By 1986...

 

David was dead. Kerry had the accident. Mike wasn't a replacement for either. Kevin was erratic. The Birds feud had been played out as every possible thing with it had been done. Gino died, but he'd also been around for years so he wasn't fresh. The promotion wouldn't push someone up to Vin Erich level for a sustained period, so even if they stumbled upon a Rock to a Von Erich's Austin, he would have had a limit of going through the roof.

 

Fans didn't HATE the product. They just stopped caring about it at the level they did in the prior years. The product just wasn't as compelling.

 

Fans don't have to be driven away. They just have to stop caring as much.

 

I don't think this is terribly complex. Ponder all of our fandom, and all of the people we've come in contact through the years in person or on line who are wrestling fans. Some leave because they hate a certain product. But most just find other shit to do, or don't have time to watch 20 hours of wrestling a week, or post on message boards.

 

I've got an insane amount of pro wrestling on disc sitting around Casa del jdw. But a couple of weekends ago, I preferred to watch the Open with my girlfriend. In turn, for the most part I'd rather spend six hours at the movies with Yohe than spending six hours watching wrestling. What's hitting my dvd player this week is rewatching The Wire... rather than rewatching some old All Japan. I dvr'd United's preseason game yesterday, and Barca's today... and there isn't a single episode of wrestling on the dvr, nor has there been a single one all year.

 

I'm still a wrestling fan. I still talk about it. When I pop in something old to watch, I usually enjoy it (unless I'm popping in something to remind me of something I didn't like). But as far as investing time watching it... I'm about 50 times more likely to watch the episode of Longmire that I dvr'd last might than wrestling.

 

That's not an "exception" to Wrestling Fans. It's the majority. We all know it. People move on.

 

Wrestling has always dealt with that. A part of a successful wrestling business is replacing those who left with New Fans. Some times it's new, younger fans who start watching and dig the old stars as much as the people who've left. Other times it's a new *wrestler* who gets hot and pulls in new fans. But it's a constant thing.

 

It happens in sports as well, but probably with less of a bleed rate. Pro wrestling is... a bullshit garbage form of entertainment. Think of other forms of bullshit entertainment or products and how quickly folks move on from it. On some level it's a surprise that the entire industry hasn't gone completely off the cliff.

[pmo]

You hit the nail on the head there. It's not caring that's a problem. I know I feel the same way a lot about spending time with wrestling (except replace United with Fulham). I think the reason it hasn't gone entirely off the cliff is because there is something to cyclical nature. I wonder if the fact that the 80/90s generation that grew hasn't moved on has hurt the WWE in terms of booking. ( I have no data to back this up, just spitballing)

[KrisZ]

Another thing regarding The Sheik is that he just didn't kill off Detroit but almost killed Toronto dead as well.....it took Frank Tunney to stop booking him completely and retooling his system which eventually meant bringing in the JCP guys.

[Jimmy Redman]

When long-lasting products die, it's often because something else comes along to take their spot and they can no longer compete. For example, in this country old-fashioned plate-service chain restaurants (see Wimpy, Lyons Corner Houses) were killed by fast food once McDonalds turned up -- just as Music Hall was killed by radio and TV. The product goes out of favour because it didn't move with the times, not because anyone had ill will towards it.

Falling out of favor is a form of ill will: people don't give a shit about it any more.

 

We had a wave of Frozen Yogurt stores in the US in the late 80s or early 90s. It was the next big thing. If I gave a shit enough about the product, I could probably remember the 1-2 major chains that everyone was trying to get a franchise from. I'm sure there are still some out there, but it's long since passed it's "Hot Niche Store" days, and a lot of guys who got franchises went bust because... far fewer people give a shit about it.

 

Did anything come to take its place? Not really. It's not like Ice Cream made a huge comeback.

 

Did people loath hate-Hate-HATE the concept? Not really. The masses just stopped giving a shit about it in terms of going regularly.

 

Again, there are still stores out there, and someone is probably doing decent business here and there. But at it's peak, it was a hot as freaking Starbucks and Coffee joints.

 

To complete the "doesn't necessarily stay dead forever" narrative, Frozen Yoghurt joints are popping up EVERYWHERE around here (Sydney). They are now the new *in" franchise again, at least here, and I am young enough to not have realised that it was a huge thing 20 years ago.

[JerryvonKramer]

Frozen Yoghurt seems to be getting over a bit in London too, as do smoothie joints which have traditionally struggled to stay open for 6 months in this country. There was a Milkshake shop that opened in my local town here and I said to my wife "I give that place 5 months". And sure enough it closed in that time. There was a smoothie place too which also lasted 6 months. And a place in the next town which stretched to about 9. Those businesses aren't viable outside of central London and I'd warrant the Frozen Yoghurt ones aren't either. Core product isn't enough of a draw and the footfall just isn't big enough. The thing I've always wanted to see is a "Dessert Cafe", a place where you can go for cakes, ice creams, and so on. The US seems to have many more of these. Places like The Cheesecake Factory in Chicago or just your traditional Mom and Pop's Ice Cream place. We don't have them at all. This has wildly digressed, apologies.

[ButchReedMark]

I cannot think of examples of sports teams dying due to low crowd turnout bred from ill will. Most football clubs here have been running for almost a century and failures come down to financial mismanagement such as overspending on players (see Portsmouth).

A lot of it breeds from the collapse of ITV Digital and ownership wanting and stripping clubs assets (As a Wrexham supporter that's especially a sore point for me), to be honest. As you get lower down the league pyramid it's more for those reasons than overspending in the transfer market, in my opinion.

[pantherwagner]

Frozen Yoghurt seems to be getting over a bit in London too, as do smoothie joints which have traditionally struggled to stay open for 6 months in this country. There was a Milkshake shop that opened in my local town here and I said to my wife "I give that place 5 months". And sure enough it closed in that time. There was a smoothie place too which also lasted 6 months. And a place in the next town which stretched to about 9. Those businesses aren't viable outside of central London and I'd warrant the Frozen Yoghurt ones aren't either. Core product isn't enough of a draw and the footfall just isn't big enough. The thing I've always wanted to see is a "Dessert Cafe", a place where you can go for cakes, ice creams, and so on. The US seems to have many more of these. Places like The Cheesecake Factory in Chicago or just your traditional Mom and Pop's Ice Cream place. We don't have them at all. This has wildly digressed, apologies.

Last year I worked in Hook, next to Basingstoke in Hampshire. Basingstoke had a smoothie shop, a Ben and Jerry's and a frozen yoghurt place. They all seemed to do fairly well though I dont know if they are still around. I think those business (outside of London) only work in shopping malls or next cinemas.

 

I had to reply to this because I don't care for ice cream but I'm a huge fan of frozen yoghurt.

 

If you love dessert cafes you need to travel to any eastern Asian large cities: Seoul, Taipei, Tokyo, Bangkok, doesn't matter, there's shitloads of them all over the place.