WWF fans vs WCW fans

[Loss]

Going through 90s yearbooks, I think comparing WWF and WCW fans and what they popped for is a really interesting topic. I found that in general, it was easier for good workers to get over in front of a WCW crowd. If the wrestlers were doing good work, fans were going to get into what they were doing. The WWF was more based on perception and hype, so two no-names having a good match wasn't going to get a strong reaction very often.

 

There are also certain spots we've all commented on in the threads, the most notable being that a surefire way to pop a WCW crowd is to do a series of tombstone piledriver reversals. That was a constant through good times and bad, changes in leadership, etc.

 

I remember Russo discarding the survey that WCW did on their audience that showed what they wanted that WCW wasn't giving them. I'm not sure very many people in wrestling -- if anyone -- really understood the difference between the two promotions. Some things would work in both places, but some things would have probably worked in WCW that would have failed in the WWF, and vice versa.

 

Anyone have anything to add to this?

[KrisZ]

It goes back to the way you are trained to watch the product....they educate you on what they want you to like...at least back before the internet.

[Matt D]

I feel like it's tricky because crowds varied, much as they do now, geographically. I'm sure some things would come out on average, but it'd be more interesting to me to look at the Center Stage audience vs the 93 Raw audience, for instance.

[Loss]

I would have thought that too, but Vader vs Shamrock at Cold Day In Hell was in Richmond, VA and Regal vs Ultimo at Slamboree a week later was in Charlotte, NC. I could see people going either way on which match they prefer, but one match got over a whole lot better than the other one with the live crowd, and it wasn't the one you'd expect.

[Kevin Ridge]

As far as the past I'm definitely a WWF guy. I agree that it seemed like good workers (mid card guys) could get over more in front of the WCW crowds. Maybe the Northeast fans were more strict. I think the thing that always stood out to me was that WCW fans embraced Lucha/Cruiserweight action where WWF fans seemed to completely sit on.

[Ditch]

I grew up without access to WCW until 1995, when the cable TV line (which stopped 50 yards from my house) was extended. I quickly came to prefer WCW to WWF because it had more of everything; more starpower, more styles, more little guys AND really big guys, and more wrestling. Mid-90s WWF was a low period, and I never much cared about Russo-era 'attitude', so I preferred WCW until early 2000 when the in-ring product for WWF became very good and WCW's in-ring product hit a nadir.

 

Mentioning the survey is something I wish more people knew about. WCW fans were conditioned to enjoy WRESTLING more than WWF fans, and Russo had such New York tunnel-vision that he couldn't accept that he needed to change his approach somewhat. Rather than an edgier version of WCW but with more wrestling than WWF, we got an edgier version of WWF with as little wrestling as possible. The survey bore this out perfectly, and it's why WCW's business collapsed when the in-ring product declined in mid-99 and went off a cliff under Russo.

[Tim Cooke]

Wen did the survey in 1999 or 2000 take place?

[Loss]

Not sure when it took place, but the report was compiled and issued around the time Bischoff was forced out and replaced with Bill Busch. I think an outside firm did it and collected data for over a year.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's what interests me about this:

 

Your NWA fan was brought up on a wrestling centred product in which a strong match was appreicated.

 

Your WWF was brought up on rock n wrestling.

 

In 1994, Hogan went to WCW and Eric tried to turn the promotion into WWF circa 1986. The same year, Bret Hart was put over strong as a wrestling champ in WWF.

 

By 1995 both companies were in virtual no man's land with Diesel vs. Mabel and the attack of the evil dentist in WWF and Hogan vs. endless members of the Dungeon of Doom in WCW.

 

So by 1996, how much are both companies in a kind of "ground zero" where the "training of the fans" has essentially be undone?

 

I'm not sure if I've put that very well, but how many of the guys who were "trained" to watch the product of Flair vs. whoever in the 80s stuck through the 94-5 Hogan stuff? How many of the guys who were "trained" on Hogan vs. whoever in the 80s stuck through the 94-5 Bret or Diesel stuff?

 

Seems to me that you get some sort of reset there for both companies.

[shoe]

I think WCW you were trained to like good wrestling . People like Brad Armstrong, and Tim Horner could get over and get a reaction because the audience gave a shit about the match in front of them. Look at the Horner/Horowitz from the WWF set. The audience didn't give 2 shits about it. The WWF audience was trained to be a fan of the moment, like Hogan posing. WWF fans were more flash and awe type of fans.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ah, horseshit. This idea that WCW fans liked good wrestling and WWF fans liked flash and no substance is nerd jacking off bullshit.

I never got the whole "I like this promotion so I hate this promotion" tripe. Who REALLY does that? It's silly to "take sides". Wrestling is wrestling and its awesome no matter what initials are on the screen.

[shoe]

I might have been a little harsh in the flash and awe comment, but for the most part if you weren't pushed as important in the WWF the fans didn't care about them, and it was hard for people to get a reaction from the crowd.

[goodhelmet]

Johnny, you're wrong. I have friends who have always been WWF/E friends who refused to watch WCW. I have friends who dropped out of watching wrestling when WCW went out of business. We see people defend TNA to this day but rip on WWE. People choose a product and stick with it.

[shoe]

Also the WWf was centered around characters, while the NWA was more wrestling focused. While both groups had both I believe the WWf was centered on characters and the moment, while the NWA was more focused on wrestling though they had their share of characters.

[Death From Above]

Ah, horseshit. This idea that WCW fans liked good wrestling and WWF fans liked flash and no substance is nerd jacking off bullshit.

In nobody's universe but your own is this true.

 

Fuck, WWF wasn't even about good wrestling the 10 or 11 times a year they'd luck into doing it by accident for a whole show on a good year. Never mind the other 90% of the time.

 

I say that as someone that grew up exclusively on WWF until high school, and I'm pretty open to defending sports entertainment as a style when it's done well.

 

But Vince's focus has never been "put on good wrestling for an extended period". Hell, everything we know about Vince suggests he thinks only marks care if matches are good in the first place. Which he's probably half right about.

[Loss]

Ah, horseshit. This idea that WCW fans liked good wrestling and WWF fans liked flash and no substance is nerd jacking off bullshit.

I never got the whole "I like this promotion so I hate this promotion" tripe. Who REALLY does that? It's silly to "take sides". Wrestling is wrestling and its awesome no matter what initials are on the screen.

2.6 million people who watched Nitro and weren't automatically added to RAW's audience when WCW folded disagree.

[Death From Above]

I'd also say it's hard for me to judge the split as well as many American fans because as I've noted several times before, Raw and Nitro aired on the same station here in Canada nationwide. So I don't get the sense fans here were nearly as divided as your core Atlanta people that think Vince is the devil vs. core northeast US Yankees that think everything from the south is backwards and stupid. Most wrestling fans here were either WWE or WWE and WCW but not both, but I think that has more to do with WCW not having nearly the exposure here before the Monday Night Wars than anything else.

[Kevin Ridge]

There was definitely a division of WWF versus WCW fans. I had one friend who was very pro WCW fan back in the mid 90's who we use to rag on for. We would always say We Can't Wrestle to him which is very debatable now since they put out the better in ring presentation. I can look back and totally admit to the faults of WWF at the time but I was very stubborn about embracing WCW. Them dominating in the ratings? Oh, there must be some type of fix! It was two years of denial by me before WWF finally took the ratings lead in 98.

[Ricky Jackson]

Other than one of my closest friends (and fellow wrestling-obsessive...well, not as obsessive as me of course--I'm posting on a message board for christs sake), nobody I knew gave a shit about WCW in Canada pre-NWO. During the 97-99 years, I knew tons of WCW fans, and the whole Raw-Nitro Monday war (Monday-Tuesday war on TSN) was really hot for a while. A lot of the interest in WCW was due to old WWF guys being there no doubt. As far as the whole "fans taking sides" thing, I was always interested in whatever wrestling I could see, read the mags religiously and followed NWA, AWA, etc going back to the very beginning of my fandom, but yes, Canada is WWF/WWE country, and I can definitely remember wanting WWF to make a comeback in 97 and win the ratings war in a way that was similar to rooting for your hometown team to win a championship.

[KrisZ]

Well the Northeast fans adapted to the South's product a whole helluva lot more than the South did the WWF. If you look at the numbers for many years WWF didn't do great business in the South other than the major cities in Florida which are known for their NE refugees.

 

JCP would go to Philly and did strong business.

[Cox]

I think this is an interesting topic, because I agree in there being differences between WWF fans and WCW fans, and I think that's the reason we will never see a second strong wrestling company ever again. WCW (with help from various other territories for sure, like Crockett, GCW, Mid South, etc) had years of training their fans to accept wrestling as the most important part of a wrestling TV show, it was ingrained in the southern wrestling culture over decades, and at this point, so much time has passed since WCW died that I don't think another wrestling company would have the patience from their highers up to train their audience to accept a strong wrestling-based product. Not that TNA has really ever tried to present a strong wrestling-based product during the Impact era, but it would only be a matter of time before Dixie or whomever was the corporate head was asking why their wrestling show didn't look like Raw before the wrestling time was cut back and more 20 minute promos or goofy backstage skits were added to the program to be a WWE-lite show. ROH's attempts at making waves on television have failed miserably, and granted part of that has been their terrible TV deals and bad booking, but it's also because the audience that grew up on a wrestling-based product has long since moved on, and at this point they aren't coming back. I think that's a real shame as a real alternative would have been great for wrestling fans, but unfortunately Russo was booking the first real alternative to WWE that popped up post-WCW, and that killed the chance of a true wrestling-based television show ever coming back.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

Wasn't there an earlier WCW survey around 96 or so that showed Eddie Guerrero to be extremely popular?

[ohtani's jacket]

When I first got on the Internet the WCW/WWF divide was so strong. There was a lot of death riding of the WWF after Pillman's death and then Montreal especially by people who remembered what Vince had done to the territories. This death riding made WWF fans hugely defensive. When WCW dropped the ball with Sting/Hogan and the WWF started getting attention for using Mike Tyson the worm turned and I'll never forget that Tuesday when WWF won the ratings.

 

My impression was that workrate fans or wannabe workrate fans as many of us were paid heed to the workers in WCW but a lot of older fans who were online had already begun to lose interest. I'm not sure if your older WCW fan ever really embraced the Hogan era. As for WWF fans, the main event was the only match that ever delivered any decent wrestling. That was the one area they excelled in compared to WCW and I think it was actually an important advantage when Austin got hot. I remember those WWF fans who did like workrate would pimp just about anything like that Hardys/Brood tv match, that's how desperate they were for good wrestling. Personally, when the Radicals jumped I was so disappointed with their early matches and with guys like Angle and Jericho that I stopped watching, but really the last decade or so has been by far and away the best in ring product in the company's history even if I prefer a lot of the older matches.

[Loss]

Wasn't there an earlier WCW survey around 96 or so that showed Eddie Guerrero to be extremely popular?

Yes, market research in 1996 showed Eddy to be the most likable guy in WCW.

[Eduardo]

A match to point to as an example of this divide might be the Rock N Roll Express vs Heavenly Bodies match at WWF Survivor Series 1993. Just an awesome match, four workers going all out and having great performances. I prefer this match over a lot of other hyped WWF-tag matches. The crowd just did not care, they treated the four guys with silence. In WCW [and other places], this same match would have had screaming fans jumping out of their seats.