Jaaawn Cena

[Matt D]

I kind of want to delve more into the idea not that John Cena sucks, but that John Cena can't wrestle, where it came from, why and HOW people think it. A lot of times when I hear it, the point of comparison isn't between Cena and other WWE main eventers like Steve Austin, but instead between Cena and indy darlings or guys like CM Punk.

[Loss]

That comes from the FU not being executed like a death valley driver.

[Death From Above]

The FU doesn't bug me. WWE has a ton of moves that are "I gently set you down on the mat" so it's not like it stands out. His STF is dogshit terrible though.

 

Then again Misawa had that dinky little facelock thing too. Big deal.

[Dylan Waco]

I like Punk, but until and unless a review of his non-ROH indie work really knocked me on my ass, I'd say Cena has had the better career as a worker

[Matt D]

That's not the question here though. The question is "why do they think he's better than Cena?" or "What does Punk do that they think is better?"

[NintendoLogic]

The truth is, Cena was pretty bad when he was first elevated to the top spot in 2005. And bad first impressions are difficult to overcome. Look at Mark Henry. It took years for most wrestling fans to come around on him. On top of that, I think that fans being resentful of his push makes them reluctant to reconsider their preconceived notions.

[Dylan Waco]

I know the talking point is that Cena was pretty bad back then and maybe he was. I haven't watched very much of the stuff in ages. But there were 03 Cena matches I really liked, so I am skeptical about the notion that he was terrible when he first started

[Matt D]

I'm leaving our ivory tower and I'm going to start googling things.

[Matt D]

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/general-wwe/...-john-cena.html

 

Sample comments from the first 8 pages

-The thing I hate most about him is the fact that he can never lose a match fair and square. Also his 9-year-old fans

-His goofy character. That's it.

-His character is a dickhead, there is no reason to cheer for him.

-he sold his soul to the devil for the gold and heralded the tyrannical PG era

-He's a massive hypocrite.

-But if I were to nitpick... I don't like the way he brushes off everything people says to him with a smile or a shrug of the shoulders and sarcastic glance at the audience. I don't like the designs for his attire. I don't like the perception that has been created through watching his matches that it's near impossible to beat him clean.

-No-sells everyone

-Never loses clean

-One of the most unentertaining and stale people to ever "wrestle" (if you can even call it that) in a ring

-He is living proof that you can have not one skill involved in the wrestling industry and still be big, due to pure ass kissing.

-I don't hate him. But he says the same damn promo and wrestles the same damn match every damn night.

-I like and respect John Cena. I hate his goofy, hypocritical and annoying character he is given.

-sloppy wrestling, shouting promos, un beatable superman attitude, never getting pinned clean, stale character. Apart from these, I don'think he even wants to change. He is just happy doing the same shtick and getting paid.

- His ridiculously limited moveset.

- His abysmal selling.

- He cannot sell an injury and make it look legitimate. He never sells or looks to fight out of moves properly i.e. Brock Lesnar's F5 last year; he goes completely limp despite taking no prior damage. He no sells finishers during pinfalls (Against The Rock at Wrestlemania he kicks out of the 2nd(?) Rock Bottom literally a split second after the 2 count.

 

Alright, I'm done. I'd say 80% of the people think that he's stale with about 50% complaining that he doesn't acknowledge what anyone says. Very few people actually mentioned his stuff in ring and an number of them like him well enough in ring but hate how his character is presented.

 

That's just one site but it was a fairly new post and probably a relatively broad range of ages and what not.

 

I'm not going back outside for a while.

[Superstar Sleeze]

It has nothing to do with wrestling. Wrestling is such a small part of the casual smart mark fan's mind (casual smart mark would be your ROHbot). John Cena is not cool. He never will be cool. That's the whole point about Bob Backlund. CM Punk he is cool. He is an irreverent asshole. Daniel Bryan looks like a nerd. He looks like a smart mark. Cena makes shitty jokes and is a goody-goody. Cena gets shit on because it is combination of his muscular look and his shitty character. Same reason Sheamus gets booed even though he is a top 5 worker in the WWE right now. Sheamus is a shit character that looks too big for workrate fans.

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Also the WWE caved and they don't market him as a wrestler as soon as Daniel Bryan made the you are not a wrestler talking point. I wanted Cena to fucking crush him into oblivion. This started with HHH in 2006 hell maybe even with Angle. They didn't market Cena as a wrestler and they got fucked. They market HHH as a wrestler and he is some sort of King of Psychology with "smart marks". WWE Promotional Machine can work everyone including themselves.

[bradhindsight]

The truth is, Cena was pretty bad when he was first elevated to the top spot in 2005. And bad first impressions are difficult to overcome. Look at Mark Henry. It took years for most wrestling fans to come around on him. On top of that, I think that fans being resentful of his push makes them reluctant to reconsider their preconceived notions.

I may be misremembering but didn't HHH spew some of this in the lead-up to their match at WrestleMania 22?

[JerryvonKramer]

Love it when Matt D goes out and explores the wild. It's a jungle out there.

[Matt D]

Sometimes, Parv, a man just has to be reminded how good he has it.

[Jimmy Redman]

I know the talking point is that Cena was pretty bad back then and maybe he was. I haven't watched very much of the stuff in ages. But there were 03 Cena matches I really liked, so I am skeptical about the notion that he was terrible when he first started

This is something I am going to explore in depth at some point.

 

I feel like Cena was always good. Every time I see something of his from 2002-05 I like it and am impressed with how good he looked, especially relative to common sensibility at the time.

[Kevin Ridge]

With the praise Cena is getting around here from the above posts, I have to wonder why he gets such a mixed reaction at live shows. The 50/50 thing has been going on since, what 2006? This place is obviously a small sample when it comes to general wrestling fans but you folks think very highly of Cena. Matt D posted comments from other boards on why people dislike Cena but I just have a hard time believing that people are putting their hard earned money down to see a live wrestling show main evented by someone who is stale, poor seller, etc.

 

I think the "move set/poor selling" fans have to be such a minority in going to a WWE show that we shouldn't be hearing such outward chants against Cena. But is it really hate? Is it just become a part of the show for fans to have fun, to chant against Cena but still want to watch him wrestle? It is "Let's Go Cena. Cena Sucks". Not so much for the guy he's wrestling against. For certain fans, he does seem like a heel they want to pay and see get beat up. I just feel like majority of the WWE viewing audience has a strong approval of Cena as a wrestler even if the chants on TV don't necessary make you think so.

[The Chief]

I think a lot of the negativity towards Cena is directly related to the time he came up through. Cena debuted post-Attitude era where most smarts hated anybody new who wasn't brought up through WCW, ECW or the territories because they "didn't pay their dues." That was also the time of the internet super-worker, so if you didn't have kewl movez, you were a bad worker. Smart fans are the easiest fans to work, so WWE started incorporating those elements into Cena's character. The 50/50 crowd reactions became the new millenium WWE Main Event style in the same way brawls through the crowd were a staple before that.

 

I do think that the WWE booking gets a little too cutesy for it's own good, because when they do try to book Cena into sympathy roles, he's pretty damn great. If WWE booked him a little simpler instead of trying to work the smarts, I think perception would be a lot different.

[Ricky Jackson]

Based on my observations of wrestling fans who hate Cena...

 

A lot of the hate is due to his being the symbol of the current era that "sucks" for many fans, who think it was "better" circa 1997-2004, pre-Cena.

 

Another reason is a lot of dudes hated the "white rapper" persona of early Cena and have never changed their opinion of him.

[WingedEagle]

Its also "cool" for everyone other than kids to hate Cena now so most seem happy to go with the flow. It doesn't phase him, makes for some interesting moments and keeps the crowd involved. Win/win.

[Alucard]

That's not the question here though. The question is "why do they think he's better than Cena?" or "What does Punk do that they think is better?"

Moves. Any time I've seen the Cena vs Punk argument, moves is always a major topic. No matter how many Cena actually does or adds to his moveset, it's always brought up. Cena haters are stuck on the "5 moves" thing and will never stray from it. Some still insist Punk "carried" Cena in their matches.

[NintendoLogic]

The discussion about how good Cena was when he first became champion has inspired me to revisit all the PPV title matches from his first reign. Let's start at the beginning.

 

John Cena vs. JBL

Wrestlemania 21

 

I have to admit, this match is a lot better than I remembered it being. But that can't really be attributed to Cena, as this is basically a one-man show from JBL. Cena's comeback at the end is literally the only sustained offense he gets the entire match. But that's OK, because JBL looked great in control. All his offense looked crisp and vicious, and he had several well-timed hope spots and cutoffs. Unfortunately, he ran out of gas pretty quickly, so we get four consecutive double knockdown spots to allow him to catch his breath. At this point, Cena's comeback routine includes what is probably the worst hiptoss of all time. The biggest problem with the match was pacing, as the ending came out of nowhere and felt tacked-on. Considering what Cena would become, it's kind of remarkable that his first world title win doesn't feel like a big moment at all. My guess is that the company didn't quite trust him to hold up his end of a world title match. We'll see how this develops.

[jackwebb]

I have tried writing this post a few times now but end deleting it so I will just try and be quick. I have read a group for a few years now with stereotypical Cena haters. Matt's post covered it well but I'll try and give a few more details since I have seen it applied to a lot of topics over the years.

 

The people that hate Cena probably fall into 2 group. Group one hates the character. There is bias there. A good example was the Cena promo from the last RAW before Summerslam. You had Meltzer calling it possibly the best promo of his career. People on DVDVR were by in large complimentary of the promo. These people hated it before it started. Posted stupid memes afterwards or just complained in general about how bad the promo was and how Bryan schooled him.

 

Group 2 you have the people that hate Cena the wrestler. Typically, but now always, these are what you would call pseudo-smart fans. They think they are smart to the business but their knowledge rarely goes beyond knowing it is fake. They lack an appreciation for detail and subtlety in matches. So they end drawn towards loving talent that performs in a style that could be called melodramatic at times; or even cartoonish. When you ask them about bumping/selling they appreciate guys like Michaels or Ziggler. A big reason for this appears to be how they watch matches. Basically without thought. The experience is visceral for them so it is usually the big standout spots they aware of; another reason they end up drawn towards the melodramatic performances. Cena being in a Main Event spot inevitably gets examined more often. It isn't uncommon for them to take only two things from his performance out of a match. The STF and comeback. I have noticed a lot of times they don't really seem aware of how much a wrestler taking a move helps in the execution of the move. You want to give yourself a headache? Go to that board that Matt posted, register, and ask them to define technical wrestler and name the great technical wrestlers.

 

Bias does play a role because of how many people can't change their mind even when presented new information. You also have people that by nature conform to other people's opinions. So if people were negative on Cena at the smart among smarks it could spread. There are of conformity experiments on this but I don't want to talk about that too much. I think based on history most here know that nothing good comes from a "group think" discussion. My post was generalizing and there are obviously plenty of exceptions. Hell if I am wrong maybe I'll even change my mind if presented with new information though I can't guarantee it.

[Dylan Waco]

One of my favorite nights ever in a mass viewing environment was Cena/Khali at JD 07. The place was going nuts, biting on everything in the match, freaking out left and right. Probably 80 percent of the crowd of 150 or so at the sports bar were visceral anti-Cena haters and the view number of supporters were the quiet type with one or two exceptions. Everyone was raving about how great the match was - then Cena won. People start throwing shit a the big screens and whining like babies and it was obvious to me they were pissed because they were worked and weren't as smart as they thought they were. They believed Cena would lose, he didn't, and it made them feel stupid. The best was arguing right after the match with some of the anti-Cena brigade "man that Cena sure does suck. I mean you guys were marking out left and right in that match, but we all know Khali just carried him...." crickets

[Johnny Sorrow]

Cena's STF looks awesome if you look at the leg being wrenched rather than the face lock .

[Jimmy Redman]

The discussion about how good Cena was when he first became champion has inspired me to revisit all the PPV title matches from his first reign. Let's start at the beginning.

 

John Cena vs. JBL

Wrestlemania 21

 

The biggest problem with the match was pacing, as the ending came out of nowhere and felt tacked-on.

The last time I watched this I think I called it something like the first 10 minutes of a good 15 minute match. People sh*t on it ridiculously but it's not a bad match, more just an average match that ended really abruptly just when it should have got going.

 

From memory Shawn Michaels said that he and Angle went really long in their match, so it's probable they had to shave some minutes from this match on the night, which goes some way in explaining why it was so weird.

[MJH]

There are, it should go without saying, a number of fair criticisms one can make of Cena's character. Give him a strong, serious promo to deliver and he'll almost invariably hit it out of the park: give him "comedy" and it's wretched (perhaps through little fault of his own, but, at the same time, he has veto-rights on it). Does the attire still bug people? It did for a while.

 

I can't speak for his in-ring ability when he broke in as I wasn't watching at the time and (thankfully) missed his whole "white rapper" phase. I've seen a few matches from that time in retrospect, vs. Taker and a few others, and they were good but in such a way as I'd give more credit to the opponent.

 

Some of his execution is still bad, there's no getting around that. It's ironic that his sit-out powerbomb generally looks fucking great (whereas Batista's very much did not), the AA is what it is, the super rocker-dropper can be very hit-and-miss (though it looked *awesome* on Bryan, easily the best I've seen him hit it). He's just... awkward... down to the way he bumps (hips, elbows; and not in a controlled side-bump of a Flair or Savage) and runs the ropes (his foot comes way up in the air as if he's learning how to run them and to remind himself what foot to step out with). The STF is dire and his selling/body language of the hold rarely extends past his face (though that criticism can be applied to Bryan, too, at least on Sunday, I thought he did a bad job of wrenching the guillotine).

 

The problem for Cena is that most of these "flaws" are obvious. And when you couple them with a character who can be very grating (The Rock was every bit as loose and sloppy, if less awkward), it doesn't surprise me at all that a large number of people don't like him as the top guy. But, as others have mentioned, the "Cena Sucks!" chants are singalongs. I couldn't help but notice vs. Bryan how, when Bryan would make his comeback, g-up, run his offence quick, there'd be plenty of "Daniel Bryan!" and "Yes!" chants, but in the middle, when the arm came into play and Bryan pushed his aggression and Cena went as close as he did to sympathetic selling on the injury, the crowd quitened significantly. It was their only real mis-step and they moved away from it quickly. I mean the story was Bryan as underdog, Cena as pseudo-heel, and a dominant Bryan doesn't play into that, but, if the crowd "hated" Cena, they know he's injured, and Bryan's going after it predatorally because it's his opening, they should, logically, have been for that not apathetic to it. But you can't chant "Cena Sucks!" or "Let's Go Bryan" (at least, not really) when Bryan's in comfortable control, except on deliberate singalong spots (his kicks are the old corner ten-count).

 

Anyway, I'm digressing. Whilst I think a large number of the audience might well be tired with Cena (inevitable, he's been top dog for 8 and a half years - they'd turned on Hogan at that point), I think the "hate" thing is overestimated and extends little beyond those "pseudo smarts" people have mentioned already. As a talent, I think he's somewhere in the middle, though much closer to Dylan's "best big match worker" than "sucks". I do wish we get a heel run if for no other reason than I think the matches will be great.