Certifiable Carry Jobs

[peachchaos]

Are there any Pat Patterson shoots where he goes into detail about laying out matches? Specifically famous matches generally attributed to him?

 

I've heard some of the boys talk about "sitting down with Pat" to "lay it out" or "come up with the finish" but I can't recall an instance of Pat going into great detail.

[JerryvonKramer]

As to jdw's point, I made a thread once that would be super-relevant to this where we discussed who "takes credit" for certain moves: the guy on offense or the guy taking the move? I recall Jingus and other guys who have had in-ring training had some good insights and contributions to that, but I can't for the life of me find it. Might have been one of my rare threads over at DVDR.

 

The atomic drop by Ultimate Warrior that you mention is a good case in point, since just from knowing the way Rude sold Atomic Drops, that's at least 90% Rude. Even if Patterson laid the match out and it's not "Rude pacing", it's still a massive, massive carry job.

[Matt D]

I am a big advocate of the "Warrior can take direction." argument. I think you can see it in his other big Mania matches and even in the well laid out Andre SNME match. It also is wrong to think he does not bring anything to the table even if there are some basic things he is terrible at. He has both energy and the crazy charisma.

[thebrainfollower]

I rewatched the Rude-Warrior match last night. Sorry Jerry but JDW is 100% right here. This is not a Rude match. Not a Warrior match. I'd be willing to say Rude did more than Warrior but he most definitely did not carry him in that match. Happy to have someone rewatch it and argue that point move for move.

[JerryvonKramer]

I haven't seen the match in years. I figured the guys on the podcast had though and my memory of it is being a carry job. I may be tempted into a re-watch. I have no investment one way or the other.

[khawk20]

I haven't seen the match in years.

[jdw]

Are there any Pat Patterson shoots where he goes into detail about laying out matches? Specifically famous matches generally attributed to him?

 

I've heard some of the boys talk about "sitting down with Pat" to "lay it out" or "come up with the finish" but I can't recall an instance of Pat going into great detail.

I don't think there is a Pat Patterson shoot.

 

We (as in hardcore fans) tend to credit Pat for matches that are inexplicably good and/or involve wrestlers we don't like / don't think are good workers having performances / matches well above their talent levels.

 

Whether Pat actually warrants that credit... who knows. There are just some WWF matches that end up feeling like "WWF Matches" rather than the two guys in there pulling it out of their asses on their own.

[jdw]

The atomic drop by Ultimate Warrior that you mention is a good case in point, since just from knowing the way Rude sold Atomic Drops, that's at least 90% Rude. Even if Patterson laid the match out and it's not "Rude pacing", it's still a massive, massive carry job.

 

I rewatched the Rude-Warrior match last night. Sorry Jerry but JDW is 100% right here. This is not a Rude match. Not a Warrior match. I'd be willing to say Rude did more than Warrior but he most definitely did not carry him in that match. Happy to have someone rewatch it and argue that point move for move.

 

I haven't seen the match in years. I figured the guys on the podcast had though and my memory of it is being a carry job. I may be tempted into a re-watch. I have no investment one way or the other.

 

I haven't seen the match in years.

 

Yeah... that is kind of how I felt at the end of it.

 

Brain and I don't always (or often) get along, but at least he watched it. In turn, the last time I watched it, I tossed up 1700+ words on walking through it in detail. More than just walking through it, I also walked through my own mindset and prejudices coming into a re-watch match: I was expecting Rude going all Kawada-Albright in it with the greatest carry job in WWF history. It's actually what I wanted to see. And... it just wasn't there.

 

I'd be happy to watch it yet again, and take my old walk through an expand it to 2500+ or 3000+. I'd be more than happy to find out on a rewatch that I was totally wrong, and that Rude carried the thing. But I'm really doubtful: if I didn't see it when actively looking for it and hating Warrior... it's going to be hard to find.

[JerryvonKramer]

Save yourself the effort, I've edited the OP to reflect your correctives.

[jdw]

So when people disagree with you on a carry job, rather than re-watching it and either (i) defending your original opinion, or (ii) agreeing with the other folks that they are right, you:

 

 

That's... pretty inconsistent to what the thread was about.

 

One of the points in my long walk through link above wasn't that "other people" were wrong. It was that *I* had been wrong, both when I watched it live back in the day, and then when I re-watched it a couple of years prior to the post walking through. I was also wrong in my expectations of what I'd be seeing. I wasn't looking to be revisionist: I was expecting to agree with my earlier feeling about the match, and how a large number of other folks felt about the match.

 

It frankly would have been easier simply to write that it was a great match, point to some cool stuff in it, and just duck having been wrong for close to two decades on the match. I could have...

 

 

But it would have been a cop out in looking at the match and thinking about it.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Look. I'll try to put this as politely as I can. If anyone else in the entire world wanted to argue the point, I'd have been happy to. But I'd rather have someone take a power drill to my skull than to have to have speak to you for a second longer. That's all it is. I like wrestling and talking about it. Love it. Whenever I start doing that with your involvement I can feel the blood slowly draining away. I'm happy if the feeling's mutual. I don't care who likes you or who likes me. Okay. I don't like being negative or aggressive, doesn't feel pleasant. Never ends well. You are making it difficult for me to post here. Especially if you're going to wade into every thread I make. I will try to stay out of your way.

[peachchaos]

Look. I'll try to put this as politely as I can...I'd rather have someone take a power drill to my skull than to have to have speak to you for a second longer. That's all it is.

Not taking sides, but

 

[jdw]

Look. I'll try to put this as politely as I can. If anyone else in the entire world wanted to argue the point, I'd have been happy to.

Bix and I were talking about it.

 

You chose to come back in with this:

 

As to jdw's point, I made a thread once that would be super-relevant to this where we discussed who "takes credit" for certain moves: the guy on offense or the guy taking the move? I recall Jingus and other guys who have had in-ring training had some good insights and contributions to that, but I can't for the life of me find it. Might have been one of my rare threads over at DVDR.

 

The atomic drop by Ultimate Warrior that you mention is a good case in point, since just from knowing the way Rude sold Atomic Drops, that's at least 90% Rude. Even if Patterson laid the match out and it's not "Rude pacing", it's still a massive, massive carry job.

Brain chose to do what you refuse to do: rewatch the match and think about it. He indicated that it wasn't a carry job.

 

You then copped to:

 

I haven't seen the match in years. I figured the guys on the podcast had though and my memory of it is being a carry job. I may be tempted into a re-watch. I have no investment one way or the other.

Despite claiming 5 hours earlier that "it's still a massive, massive carry job".

 

As a side note: the "If anyone else in the entire world wanted to argue the point, I'd have been happy to" claim isn't terribly supported by the fact that almost 16 hours passed between the time Brain posted his comment and I posted mine that you're crying about. You didn't talk about it after Brain's comment other than to throw your podcasters under the bus, which was a chickenshit thing to do. It's a 16 minute match, and a good one to boot. 16 hours since then, even with the time difference. So the "happy to argue about it with people other than jdw" is a big stretch. I'll avoid the L-word, but... um... yeah.

 

Anyway...

 

Kevin found your comment odd. I did too, pointed again back to my write up and indicated again that I'd be happy to rewatch it yet again.

 

Then you started crying and took your ball.

 

John

[Loss]

John, your harping on possibly inaccurate but innocent comments from Jerry make it appear as if you have a personal issue with him and are actively looking to interpret his posts in the way that benefits you the most. It's happened in multiple threads now. He made a comment from memory and was also basing it on a comment I made on a podcast recently that was from memory. That's not really a cardinal sin. It's something we've all done at certain points.

 

I'm willing to admit my memory might be off and will give the match another watch in the future, but Jerry "took his ball and went home" because you have a history of attacking him excessively for the occasional tendency to throw out a comment in haste. He finds it difficult to engage with you because you come after him with a special vitriol that seems only reserved for him, and I can't say I blame him for not wanting to get into this with you.

 

Will you be watching the build to Flair/Arn at Fall Brawl and then rethinking the way that match is worked anytime soon?

[jdw]

John, your harping on possibly inaccurate but innocent comments from Jerry make it appear as if you have a personal issue with him and are actively looking to interpret his posts in the way that benefits you the most.

Nope. This would have happened if anyone said that Warrior-Rude at SummerSlam was a carry job. Kind of clear since I disagreed with Bix.

 

 

Jerry "took his ball and went home" because you have a history of attacking him excessively for the occasional tendency to throw out a comment in haste.

Nope. He came back in to try to defend the carry job without watching it. Brain disagreed, at which point Jerry copped to not watching the match anytime recently, at which point two of us laughed. Then he took his ball and went home.

 

 

Will you be watching the build to Flair/Arn at Fall Brawl and then rethinking the way that match is worked anytime soon?

I have. Did it get me to change my mind about the match. Not at all when I re-watched it a couple of months ago.

[JerryvonKramer]

Actually, I came back in to raise two points:

 

1. The question of whether the person giving a move or taking it gets credit. I mentioned that because from your description the match seemed to have Warrior on offense and just from knowing Rude, something like an atomic drop is 90% him because of the lengths he goes to sell the move.

 

2. That being the case, to say that the question of "pacing" or who laid out the match (by all accounts Patterson), isn't really in question, because Rude could still be doing 90% of the work.

 

And, make no bones about it: I left it not because I don't have the stomach to watch the match or argue the point, it's because I can't stand you, like I can't stand nails across a chalk board. I can't put it any more plainly. But this is boring to everyone here now, and we should both move beyond it for the good of the forum.

 

The question of Rude vs. Warrior will still rest, I think, on where we attribute "credit". Where Warrior is giving suplexes and atomic drops, how much of the "work" is being done by Rude there? It doesn't really matter that Patterson laid out the match and that Warrior was taking instruction, what matters in terms of the "carrying" is how much of the work was being done by Rude and whether you might have replaced Warrior with a broomstick.

 

I am perfectly happy to concede the point that it might not be a carry job. As I said, I have nothing invested in it. I'll watch the match tomorrow.

[Negro Suave]

Just to add some perspective here

 

UW - Lariat

UW - Press Slam to Floor

UW - a little outside the ring action: apron smash, table smash, belt shot

UW - vertical suplex on the floor

UW - fist drop outside

 

RR - great bump taking a toss over the top

 

UW - slam on the floor

UW - double axehandle off the top - NF

 

RR - some nice Bret-style corner bumps selling the back

 

UW - slam - NF

UW - vertical suplex - NF

UW - reverse atomic drop

UW - buttbuster (for lack of a better word)

The "offense" in this section is mostly made possible by Rude. With the exception of the lariat and the striking move, these moves are made by the sell not the delivery.

 

I can see arguing against it if warrior was known to put on classic matches on a regular basis and I would even call myself a Warrior fan, but he had two speeds, house of fire and building up to house of fire. This was his thing and he did it well and it was more a testament to the man in the ring with the Warrior that they are able to put a story around him.

 

As far as carry jobs the first thing that comes to mind is anyone "wrestling" Yoshihiko, yes I know they were comedy matches but really showcased some of the guys abilities.

[Dylan Waco]

I remembered this after reading Loss review of the match Togo had with Honda, but Togo's carry job in a thirty minute plus match against Billy Ken Kid of all people has to be one of the most incredible carry jobs I've ever seen

[Brandon-E]

I remembered this after reading Loss review of the match Togo had with Honda, but Togo's carry job in a thirty minute plus match against Billy Ken Kid of all people has to be one of the most incredible carry jobs I've ever seen

I can see why people enjoy that match but I prefer Dick Togo vs Shinya Ishikawa from 5/3/09.

[jdw]

Actually, I came back in to raise two points:

 

1. The question of whether the person giving a move or taking it gets credit. I mentioned that because from your description the match seemed to have Warrior on offense and just from knowing Rude, something like an atomic drop is 90% him because of the lengths he goes to sell the move.

It was 1 of 11 groupings of things that I listed for Warrior in that segment. Not exactly what I'd hang my hat on.

 

Did Rude sell well in the section? Sure. I highlighted some of it that was that was quite strong just to get across that Warrior wasn't working with a broom.

 

2. That being the case, to say that the question of "pacing" or who laid out the match (by all accounts Patterson), isn't really in question, because Rude could still be doing 90% of the work.

Rude wasn't doing 90% of the work in that section. He was, at most, doing 50% of the work. Did it well. My point was when I wrote that long thing, and now, that Warrior surprisingly held up his end of the bargain to a degree that the "Rude Had The Greatest Carry Job In WWF History" notion wasn't true. It's a notion that I had before rewatching it, and simply found completely lacking after the rewatch.

 

And, make no bones about it: I left it not because I don't have the stomach to watch the match or argue the point, it's because I can't stand you, like I can't stand nails across a chalk board. I can't put it any more plainly. But this is boring to everyone here now, and we should both move beyond it for the good of the forum.

And this typifies literally everything I've ever said in response to you. Rather than watch the match to make a reasoned reponse, you pull shit out of your ass that isn't correct.

 

I get why you can't stomach a discussion with me: I point out where you're wrong, you try to bullshit your way through it rather than admitting you're wrong, I point out that your new bullshit is wrong, wash, rinse, repeat until you go running out of the thread without admitting your wrong. Yeah... that must be hard to stomach.

 

It really beats the heck out of me why you "bowed back in" to offer nothing.

[jdw]

Just to add some perspective here

 

UW - Lariat

UW - Press Slam to Floor

UW - a little outside the ring action: apron smash, table smash, belt shot

UW - vertical suplex on the floor

UW - fist drop outside

 

RR - great bump taking a toss over the top

 

UW - slam on the floor

UW - double axehandle off the top - NF

 

RR - some nice Bret-style corner bumps selling the back

 

UW - slam - NF

UW - vertical suplex - NF

UW - reverse atomic drop

UW - buttbuster (for lack of a better word)

The "offense" in this section is mostly made possible by Rude. With the exception of the lariat and the striking move, these moves are made by the sell not the delivery.

I'm at a loss on how a Lariat is any different from a Double Axe Handle Off The Top when it comes to selling. Or a pair of vertical suplexes. Or in the sense of pondering, is Flair's Eternal Suplex something cool that Ric does... or it it all the credit in the world to the face for taking it? I mean... I know the opponent needs to go up for it, but it is Ric's spot and something cool he does.

 

 

I can see arguing against it if warrior was known to put on classic matches on a regular basis and I would even call myself a Warrior fan, but he had two speeds, house of fire and building up to house of fire. This was his thing and he did it well and it was more a testament to the man in the ring with the Warrior that they are able to put a story around him.

 

Except that... as lots of people have pointed out here when rewatching WWF stuff and stuff from elsewhere in the 80s... Rude wasn't putting out classic matches on a regular basis (or even ever) prior to the match with Warrior. It's actually the moment where people tend to point to as Rick Getting Good.

 

That's not to say he doesn't have some good matches before that here and there. I like his match with Tito in Boston more than most, and his match with Hogan more than most (though most of the match is bullshit at the start). There are some folks who like one of his matches with Jake, but the comments usually put it over as a Jake Match, and occasionally are folks who like Jake quite a bit anyway. There's generally one Ragin' & Rude match folks point to, and it's generally for one of the great Ricky Morton Bring Ricky Morton performances of all-time.

 

So... it really isn't like people thought Rude was Macho Man prior to this match. It goes both ways.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Actually, I came back in to raise two points:

 

1. The question of whether the person giving a move or taking it gets credit. I mentioned that because from your description the match seemed to have Warrior on offense and just from knowing Rude, something like an atomic drop is 90% him because of the lengths he goes to sell the move.

It was 1 of 11 groupings of things that I listed for Warrior in that segment. Not exactly what I'd hang my hat on.

 

Did Rude sell well in the section? Sure. I highlighted some of it that was that was quite strong just to get across that Warrior wasn't working with a broom.

 

2. That being the case, to say that the question of "pacing" or who laid out the match (by all accounts Patterson), isn't really in question, because Rude could still be doing 90% of the work.

Rude wasn't doing 90% of the work in that section. He was, at most, doing 50% of the work. Did it well. My point was when I wrote that long thing, and now, that Warrior surprisingly held up his end of the bargain to a degree that the "Rude Had The Greatest Carry Job In WWF History" notion wasn't true. It's a notion that I had before rewatching it, and simply found completely lacking after the rewatch.

 

And, make no bones about it: I left it not because I don't have the stomach to watch the match or argue the point, it's because I can't stand you, like I can't stand nails across a chalk board. I can't put it any more plainly. But this is boring to everyone here now, and we should both move beyond it for the good of the forum.

 

And this typifies literally everything I've ever said in response to you. Rather than watch the match to make a reasoned reponse, you pull shit out of your ass that isn't correct.

 

I get why you can't stomach a discussion with me: I point out where you're wrong, you try to bullshit your way through it rather than admitting you're wrong, I point out that your new bullshit is wrong, wash, rinse, repeat until you go running out of the thread without admitting your wrong. Yeah... that must be hard to stomach.

 

It really beats the heck out of me why you "bowed back in" to offer nothing.

 

Jesus Christ , just tell Jerry you want to fuck him and be done with it.

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw, please do not kid yourself even for a second that the reason I can't stomach a discussion with you is because of your amazing powers of argumentation. Are you kidding me? It's because you're an insufferable and tedious prick.

 

But don't tell me, I'm even wrong about my own reasons for disliking you now? I love that, tell this son of a bitch that he's the human equivalent of nails on a chalkboard or that you'd rather take a power drill to your head than carry on speaking to him and he comes back with "no actually you're wrong, and I'm right, the reasons that you don't like me are as follows ... blah blah blah ad nauseam ad infinitum". Does your pomposity know no bounds? You are little more than a troll at this point, and a really fucking boring one.

 

On a different day, without you around, I probably would have gone to watch Rude vs. Warrior again and maybe found that yes, Warrior did more than I'd given him credit for. Or maybe, I'd have found that no even after re-watching I still think that Rude's selling is carrying the day. I would have happily done that. Anyone who even knows me a tiny amount knows I would have done that. But you systematically kill my desire to discuss anything, you make it 100% less fun, so I didn't bother.

 

I have to put you on ignore now for the good of the forum. There's no other option; even if I leave something -- and the clue was in not saying anything for 4 days -- you keep taking potshots and finding new ways to be a wanker. What else can I do now but block it? I think you are properly mental to be honest. And I hate the idea that this shit is spoiling what is the best place on the internet to talk wrestling.

[MikeCampbell]

How about Jumbo vs. Kerry Von Erich from May '84 for Kerry's NWA Title?

[Dylan Waco]

Kerry was great in that match