Undertaker > Hogan

[SteveJRogers]

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

Oddly enough I was thinking about the idea of people treating Hulk Hogan as a fictional character, and in a way, they'd be right. Like even if Chris Irvine shares the same interests and personality as Chris Jericho, TECHNICALLY Chris Jericho exits only as a stage name. Kind of like the idea of there are three sides of Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne; the super hero identity of Superman and Batman, the public persona of Clark (award winning journalist) and Bruce (billionaire philanthropist), and the Clark and Bruce with their closest confidants (Ma & Pa Kent, Lois, Alfred, whomever is Robin at the time).

 

So maybe we've been going around this discussion the wrong way, and should be comparing Hogan with fictional characters of that era, or like characters that were hot for about the same time frame as Andy Warhol said about in real life people (Max Headroom, etc).

[rvd356]

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face that Witness, Out of Africa, and Cocoon are more enduring and beloved than the John Hughes films with Ringwald, or even the ones without her like Ferris? Crocodile Dundee was a major hit at the time, but it hasn't had the same staying power. It was a huge fad, almost like Hulk Hogan. But I don't think anyone outside of the '80s really knows or cares about Paul Hogan (the Croc actor).

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

 

No. Hogan WAS wrestling. Paul Hogan WASN'T movies. He was a pop culture icon. But not even in the top 100 actors recognized. Hogan's lost a lot of name recognition with the younger group. My 19 year old girlfriend didn't know the name or the face, but she knows The Rock(and loves him). The Rock has a lot of BIG movies which Hogan never ever had and also Rock is really good looking which is how all my girlfriends recgnize him and what makes him 10x the star Hogan ever was. A lot of what made Hogan relevant in the last 10 years was the VH1 'Hogan Knows Best' reality show and all the ensuing drama with the whore wife, the pathetic daughter, the criminal idiot son and the staple of trashy reality stars, the sex tape. Hogan went from the most famous wrestler in the world in the 80's/90ksto an infamous Corey Feldman

 

And looking at his 2011 appearances & tag match, 2012 Wrestlemania main event & 2013 title run/Mania main event he is back to being the biggest wrestler and one of the top 20 actors in America.

 

So basically I'm saying The Rock > Hogan >>> Taker as far as star power.

[SteveJRogers]

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face that Witness, Out of Africa, and Cocoon are more enduring and beloved than the John Hughes films with Ringwald, or even the ones without her like Ferris? Crocodile Dundee was a major hit at the time, but it hasn't had the same staying power. It was a huge fad, almost like Hulk Hogan. But I don't think anyone outside of the '80s really knows or cares about Paul Hogan (the Croc actor).

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

 

No. Hogan WAS wrestling. Paul Hogan WASN'T movies. He was a pop culture icon. But not even in the top 100 actors recognized. Hogan's lost a lot of name recognition with the younger group. My 19 year old girlfriend didn't know the name or the face, but she knows The Rock(and loves him). The Rock has a lot of BIG movies which Hogan never ever had and also Rock is really good looking which is how all my girlfriends recgnize him and what makes him 10x the star Hogan ever was. A lot of what made Hogan relevant in the last 10 years was the VH1 'Hogan Knows Best' reality show and all the ensuing drama with the whore wife, the pathetic daughter, the criminal idiot son and the staple of trashy reality stars, the sex tape. Hogan went from the most famous wrestler in the world in the 80's/90ksto an infamous Corey Feldman

 

And looking at his 2011 appearances & tag match, 2012 Wrestlemania main event & 2013 title run/Mania main event he is back to being the biggest wrestler and one of the top 20 actors in America.

 

So basically I'm saying The Rock > Hogan >>> Taker as far as star power.

 

In other words:

 

Hogan = Your typical trashy celeb that is constantly in the news for most recent law brush up, douchebaggery example, or whatever attention seeking reason you can think of.

 

The Rock = the celeb that stays out of trouble and is constantly in the limelight only to push whatever project they are working on, or cause they are working with..

[C.S.]

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

Not a chance. Not even in the '80s. But especially not now. Like I said with Ringwald, Paul Hogan had a couple of cups of coffee in the limelight. Hulk Hogan has had several straight decades. Still, Ringwald at least endures... Who gives a crap about Crocodile Dundee today? Not even the people who grew up with it.

[Dooley]

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

Not a chance. Not even in the '80s. But especially not now. Like I said with Ringwald, Paul Hogan had a couple of cups of coffee in the limelight. Hulk Hogan has had several straight decades. Still, Ringwald at least endures... Who gives a crap about Crocodile Dundee today? Not even the people who grew up with it.

 

I'd disagree on that point. Crocodile Dundee still gets shown on cable as much as Breakfast Club and Hogan got a third sequel and those Suzuki commercials a couple of years back where he was quasi in the character for them. People remember "Crocodile Dundee" as the movie and the guy, Paul Hogan as the actor may not come to mind. I'd say "Crocodile Dundee" has endured as much as Molly Ringwald has.

[C.S.]

I'd disagree on that point. Crocodile Dundee still gets shown on cable as much as Breakfast Club and Hogan got a third sequel and those Suzuki commercials a couple of years back where he was quasi in the character for them. People remember "Crocodile Dundee" as the movie and the guy, Paul Hogan as the actor may not come to mind. I'd say "Crocodile Dundee" has endured as much as Molly Ringwald has.

Getting shown on cable all the time is only one piece of the puzzle. Who talks with reverence, respect, or fond remembrance of Crocodile Dundee? Almost no one. Meanwhile, Breakfast Club is adored. Hogan, to a certain generation of casual fans, is also seen as "the man." No one holds Dundee in the same high esteem as Hogan and Ringwald/Brat Pack/John Hughes.

[ohtani's jacket]

Fortunately, it's possible for two or more things to be big at the same time. Was Hogan a bigger deal than Hogan? Figure that one out.

 

I'm not sure movies are the right comparison really, since Hogan was more of a television star than a film star. A television star who due to the nature of his business drew stadium crowds the same size as sports stars and movie acts. And he did that from '84-89 or '85-89. That's a big run and a lot of eyeballs.

[El-P]

So Hogan >> Hogan ?

 

This thread has turned into complete absurdity.

 

A few years ago, my two nephews (10 & 7) were into wrestling (= WWE). They sure knew who Taker was, but probably had no fucking idea who Hulk Hogan was. They also lost interest pretty quickly after their father took them to a live show. Go figure.

[C.S.]

So Hogan >> Hogan ?

 

This thread has turned into complete absurdity.

 

What about The Hogan Family?

 

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

There was a very popular online series that was called 'Epic Rap Battles In History'.

 

It features spoofs of the following: Darth Vader, Adolf Hitler, Sarah Palin, Lady Gaga, Napoleon, Napoleon Dynamite, Mr T, Justin Bieber, Beethoven, John Lennon, Bill Riley, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Kim Jong-Il, Genghis Khan, The Easter Bunny, Gandalf, Dumbledore, Dr Suess, Shakespeare, Captain Kirk, Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Einstein, Stephen Hawkin, Abe Lincon, Chuck Norris, Mario Bros, Wright Bros. Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, Cleopatra, Marilyn Monroe, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Barack Obama, Mitt Romney, Doc Brown, Doctor Who, Bruce Lee, Clint Eastwood, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, Moses, Santa Claus, Moses, Adam, Eve, Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Mozart, Skillrex, Stalin, Rasputin, Al Capone, Miley Cyrus, Joan Of Arc.

 

I just thought it was a humorous that Hogan and Savage must be considered recognisable, and famous enough to be spoofed and lumped in with this lot of Film Icons, Historical Figures and other famous people.

He's also in the Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny.

[jdw]

Which films from the 80s / early 90s do we think have iconic status? Terminator? Batman 89? Scarface?

 

A lot of the 80s films I can think of seem to hover around that "cult" status.

 

I have to push back the roundtable because it clashes with some annoying Board of Studies thing I have to sit on.

 

I might just come right out and ask them Monday "Terminator? Batman 89? Scarface?" I'll just say "It's for a bet with a friend", that'll raise a laugh. My sense is that no matter which films I pick the results will be dismal.

Some others:

 

Raiders of the Lost Ark

ET

Beverly Hills Cop

Ghostbusters

Rambo

Top Gun

 

Those would be more along the lines of Batman. Big box office hits, and have had elements pop up in culture since.

 

Some others that we big but harder to tell:

 

Back to the Future

Crocodile Dundee

Fatal Attraction

 

Back to the Future is in some new GE commercials, so it's getting some run again. It's hard for me to judge the lasting iconic nature of it since it has too much of a soft spot for me.

 

I saw some Dundee talk when scrolling up the thread, but haven't really read the discussion. This is a tough one because it was really huge, big enough the the sequel got released the same day as Rambo II (i.e First Blood III and the direct follow up to Rambo), and kicked it's ass. Dundee II was "disappointing" because it didn't match the original, but it did 32% more box office than Die Hard, 39% more than Naked Gun, 48% more than Beetlejuice... all of which were considered Big Hits on some level that year. So Dundee was Big at the time.

 

The tricky thing is long lasting vibe. I want to say more than we give it credit for. Dundee plus this:

 

 

Along with Men At Work is how a lot of the "masses" got a view of Aussies. Shrimp On The Barbie and "Now THAT'S a knife" are pretty iconic lines from that era.

 

So while I doubt a ton of younger people know much about it... I think it's likely remembered in the same way as Molly and her movies (iconic to a certain segement), but on a larger scale.

 

Fatal Attraction probably isn't iconic to kids of the era. To folks over a certain age... yeah... it was pretty big. I suspect pretty iconic to a lot of cheating men who look at Fatal Attraction like a lot of us kids looked at Jaws in the 1970s and being afraid of the Beach.

 

* * * * *

 

On the Terminator and Scarface level, that's even tougher. Those are movies that weren't massive hits. Terminator had the massive sequel that helped cement it. On some level it got over as iconic a bit less for the movie than for "I'll be back", Arnold later turning into the massive box office star at the *end* of the decade, and the "Terminator" concept.

 

Scarface wasn't even thought of as that iconic in the 80s: you'd toss out references like "Say hello to my little friend" or "Do you know who you're fucking with?!?!", and folks wouldn't get it that much. At some point in the 90s and into now, they and the movie are much more over.

 

Kind of point: they took their time in building to iconic level rather than instantly getting there. They might not have been huge, but over time they got watched by a lot of people (Terminator)... or they had signature lines that people watched and got over (Scarface though of course Terminator had the big line).

 

So others like that...

 

Caddyshack - Murray's stuff from it is really over, and always has been. Rodney's stuff was at the time as well, but hard to tell over time.

 

The Shining - perhaps a bit like Scarface in having an iconic scene/line. I think far fewer people have watch those two movies in full than most iconic movies, but the big scenes... they've been watched a ton.

 

Airplane - big hit so a lot of people saw it... but probably more remembered for lines/scenes such as "I picked a bad week to quit..." and "... and stop calling me Shirley."

 

Friday the 13th - I mean... Jason rather than Michael Myers ended up defining the genre. I'm not a fan, but...

 

I'm not sure about Blues Brothers. The "We're on a mission from God" thing is iconic, but the Blues Brothers had been over from TV before that as well. Wouldn't argue against it.

 

That's just 1980.

 

So there are tiers of iconic. There's Godfather level of iconic. But there's also stuff like Terminator and Scarface level of iconic that really aren't remotely close to Godfather level or Star Wars level or Raiders of the Lost Arc level or Batman level.

 

When this thread popped into my head over the weekend, Risky Business for some reason popped up. It's something that got pushed down in Cruise's career because of Top Gun and bigger hits later. But it's also the movie that pretty much put one of the biggest box office stars in history on the map, unlike say Rob Lowe we saw Cruise deliver on people projecting him to be a star... and it does have at least one iconic scene. But Cruise has also been around for so long that I wonder if a generation of younger folks see him as that Mission Impossible guy (good lord those movies have collectively done more box office than I remembered), along with other hits around and after them. I feel old thinking about Risky Business coming out 30 year ago, and having turned 17 4 months earlier it being one of those Rated R movies that we no longer had to fake our way into.

 

Anyway...

 

John

[jdw]

I think that's the key difference between those two and, say, Molly Ringwald or let's say the kid from Gremlins. We all remember Gizmo, do we remember Zach Galligan? Well, we might, but you get the idea.

The most important thing I remember about Gremlins:

 

 

But then again, I was a massive mark at the time for her in her Paradise / Fast Times at Ridgemont High / Gremlins peak.

 

John

[Johnny Sorrow]

At least amongst most of the people I hang out with, Rodney's stuff from CADDYSHACK as well as Ted Knight's pops up regularly in daily conversation.

[jdw]

Of course not. She had a bigger medium supporting her than pro wrestling. I can't figure out if you're disagreeing with me or not.

This is kind of interesting. Movies at their biggest are bigger than pro wrestling. But Hogan (and Vince) had TV supporting them. Viewership is something to wonder about:

 

TV Households Watching

13,467,200 Main Event (1988)

11,788,800 Main Event (1990)

10,486,400 Main Event (1989)

10,223,100 SNME (1/27/90)

10,138,400 SNME (3/14/87)

9,264,400 SNME (1/3/87)

9,040,000 SNME (3/11/89)

8,933,600 SNME (1/4/86)

8,860,000 SNME (3/12/88)

8,590,000 SNME (3/1/86)

 

Estimated Ticket Buyers

12,922,583 The Breakfast Club (1985)

10,908,804 Pretty in Pink (1986)

7,049,413 Sixteen Candles (1984)

 

The estimate on tickets is based on Box Office / Average Ticket Price for the given here as listed by Box Office Mojo. I did not run a google on whether there's an established method to try to back out "repeat viewer tickets" of movies, so those numbers are likely High rather than conservative for the number of people who bought tickets.

 

The Households is based on Rating * TV Households For Year / 100 with the TV Households from Nielsen and compiled by Zap2It.

 

I took the SNME / Main Events with 10+ ratings listed.

 

Of course people would later see those movies on Free TV, but with SNME we have the following things to think about:

 

* it's households, not Viewers (there would be more)

* SNME was 11:30 PM which is past the bed time of a lot of kids even on the weekend

* the ratings don't factor in the VCR

* in a given year, more people would watch semi-regularly (say 20+) the various weekly shows than any given SNME

 

I think those 1987 SNME numbers low ball by a pretty good amount the true number of semi-regular watchers of the WWF in 1987. After adjusting for Viewers (maybe 1.5 per household), would the number double? Go up by another 1.5? That's 22,811,400 relative to the 3/14/87 SNME?

 

Those SNME numbers are pretty batshit when you consider the hour of day those aired on.

 

John

[jdw]

Maybe it's because I'm French but… who the fuck is Molly Greenwald anyway ? If she's a "cultural pop icon", it's most probably strictly an English speaking deal.

The funny thing is Ringwald was famous for leaving the U.S. and moving to France as her career cooled off in the early 90's. The couple of French films she made must not have done well.

 

I checked. Hey, she was in "Enfants de salauds" ! So I actually saw her in a movie.

 

Seven Sundays / "Tous les jours dimanche" (1994)

Bastard Brood / "Enfants de salaud" (1996)

 

Since you're done with the WCW Thread, maybe a movie review...

 

[khawk20]

At least amongst most of the people I hang out with, Rodney's stuff from CADDYSHACK as well as Ted Knight's pops up regularly in daily conversation.

People your own age, I assume?

 

Amongst friends our own age group, I imagine we all have quotes and bits from movies and TV that pop up like that. There are a couple of us that hang out here that pull Simpsons quotes from 20 years ago (literally) out all the time like that. Not many get them aside from us, but we don't care.

 

The odd person out of our age range that does is a pleasant surprise. Heartening, too, for that matter.

[jdw]

And I will agree that Julia Roberts and Demi Moore were bigger stars and are closer to pop culture icons. I'm not sure either is one, although Julia Roberts was box office gold for a pretty big stretch.

Julia Roberts is a huge freaking star. And Demi Moore used to be quite a big name too. Not even in the same boat.

 

Of the top of my head, Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock are the biggest female movie star of the past 25 years. They've both had ups and downs, but time of the top flies by so fast for most women (even men when you looks at it), that's it's pretty stunning the longevity the two have had since their breakout movies.

 

Roberts: Pretty Woman (1990) --> Eat Pray Love (2010)

Bullock: Speed (1994) --> Gravity (2013)

 

Leaving out Mirror Mirror (2012) for Roberts since it doesn't feel like that much of a hit, while Eat Pray Love was $25M less in budget and $40M more in global box office.

 

Anyway, that's 20 years for each, which is pretty mind blowing.

 

In contrast, Demi Moore was a "big star" for a stretch, a lot of money tossed at projects for her, and has stayed in the spotlight for decades in part off her personal life. But she hasn't anchored/co-anchored a hit since Disclosure, which another one of those Michael Douglas flicks of the Fatal Attraction / Basic Instinct variety... and much less of a hit than both. It's really just three movies for her: Ghost (1990), A Few Good Men (1992) and Indecent Proposal (1993)... and AFGM really was a Cruise-Jack thingy. Demi is a big star off 4 years, 3 movies, the last of which was 20 years ago... and her personal life. Yow!

[jdw]

This is a bit of a tough one. I think both at the time and in hindsight were overrate how big those Molly movies were:

The problem with your data is that it relies solely on 1980s box office numbers. Even in the '80s, movies had a shelf life outside of theaters. Cable and VHS rentals made so many of them big past their theatrical run, including the John Hughes movies. The Princess Bride is another good example of that. That has since continued with DVD, Blu-Ray, Netflix, etc.

 

Are you seriously going to tell me with a straight face that Witness, Out of Africa, and Cocoon are more enduring and beloved than the John Hughes films with Ringwald, or even the ones without her like Ferris? Crocodile Dundee was a major hit at the time, but it hasn't had the same staying power. It was a huge fad, almost like Hulk Hogan. But I don't think anyone outside of the '80s really knows or cares about Paul Hogan (the Croc actor).

 

Croc more enduring? Yes.

 

Witness and Out of Africa? No, because Ford, Redford and Streep have a massive body of work where those movies get buried under their more iconic roles. Well, hell... with Streep there isn't an iconic role: it's Steep.

 

Cocoon? No.

 

On the other hand, was I offering up any of those as having lasting huge legacy? I don't think so.

 

I was pointing to a number of movies and stars in that time period that were bigger than Molly and her movies.

 

John

[jdw]

I've always found Ringwald's career rather fascinating. She was essentially done as a major player in Hollywood by her early 20s but her movies have been able to stand the test of time and kids today still love them. To be honest I don't think she was wildly talented or anything but she was able to to portray a certain vulnerability on screen that the younger demographic could attach to. She seemed to lose that by the time she hit 20 because..well she was becoming an adult.

I didn't think at the time, nor do today, that she was wildly talented.

 

She was "right" for Sixteen Candles, and it's one of those movies where it feels like things came together rather than a wildly talented group of folks. Right moment, right actors and writer and director for it, the cliches felt "perfectly okay" rather than eye rolling at the time, etc.

 

I frankly thought they and Hughes all sucked in TBC. I think as I mentioned earlier in the thread, were were only a year removed from High School at the time and we all thought it was a steaming pile of shit relative to the real stuff kids in that environment were dealing with (i.e. White Middle Class Suburban America as opposed to kids who had really tough environments).

 

Pretty In Pink... it's always felt like it tries way too hard. Including her performance, and very much Hughes writing. Which maybe was one of the things that didn't feel like the case in Sixteen Candles.

 

 

I have to say it was surreal to see her do softcore B movies in the early/mid 90s. I don't know the name of it but the one where she stalks the college baseball player and they have sex in a car on the middle of the baseball diamond pops right into my head. Must say I was rather surprised how good she looked naked. <_>

As someone who watched a lot of early/mid 90s softcore B movies, her stuff wasn't softcore B movies. It's not like she went and did Playtime taking either the Monique Parent or Jennifer Burton role.

[jdw]

I was actually going to bring up Paul Hogan as a comparison. The first Crocodile Dundee movie grossed more than all the Brat Pack films combined, and the second one grossed over $100 million as well (in 1980s dollars, it should be noted). Was Paul Hogan a bigger deal in the culture than Hulk Hogan?

Not a chance. Not even in the '80s. But especially not now. Like I said with Ringwald, Paul Hogan had a couple of cups of coffee in the limelight. Hulk Hogan has had several straight decades. Still, Ringwald at least endures... Who gives a crap about Crocodile Dundee today? Not even the people who grew up with it.

 

I'd disagree on that point. Crocodile Dundee still gets shown on cable as much as Breakfast Club and Hogan got a third sequel and those Suzuki commercials a couple of years back where he was quasi in the character for them. People remember "Crocodile Dundee" as the movie and the guy, Paul Hogan as the actor may not come to mind. I'd say "Crocodile Dundee" has endured as much as Molly Ringwald has.

 

I agree that Croc (and through it Hogan) have endured. Setting aside the Molly comp, just as Molly sticks in the minds of a lot of girls growing up in the 80s as an icon, Croc sticks in the minds of a lot of Americans from the 80s as basically being Austrialia.

[jdw]

So Hogan >> Hogan ?

 

This thread has turned into complete absurdity.

 

What about The Hogan Family?

 

 

I am frighten that I know that... and worse, who replaced Valarie... and worse... Why.

[Johnny Sorrow]

At least amongst most of the people I hang out with, Rodney's stuff from CADDYSHACK as well as Ted Knight's pops up regularly in daily conversation.

People your own age,

 

 

Not just them. This past summer I was in a local production of Fiddler on the Roof and when I dropped a Rodney line one night after a show hanging out with a bunch of folks ranging from 18-22 it turned into a CADDYSHACK then Airplane! Quote a thon.

 

And everyone knows Sandy Duncan replaced Valerie Harper, right? Lol

[Bix]

So Hogan >> Hogan ?

 

This thread has turned into complete absurdity.

 

What about The Hogan Family?

 

 

I am frighten that I know that... and worse, who replaced Valarie... and worse... Why.

 

If you've never read it, the Macleans article about the "Valerie" contract dispute/lawsuit is awesome: http://www2.macleans.ca/2008/11/28/the-20t...t-dispute-ever/

[cabinboy454]

As someone who watched a lot of early/mid 90s softcore B movies, her stuff wasn't softcore B movies. It's not like she went and did Playtime taking either the Monique Parent or Jennifer Burton role.

You have just now become my favorite person!

[Strummer]

Jason Bateman was on Stern last year talking about the Valerie fiasco and the fire episode where she was killed off. Great stuff. As a kid I preferred Sandy Duncan to Harper. Basically the show became a Bateman vehicle as he was becoming a teen heart throb. Last few seasons are terrible though.

 

 

As someone who watched a lot of early/mid 90s softcore B movies, her stuff wasn't softcore B movies. It's not like she went and did Playtime taking either the Monique Parent or Jennifer Burton role.

well yeah they weren't on the level of Julie Strain or Julie K Smith (or Parent) Maybe like Lifetime movies with topless shots and simulated sex. <_>