Jimmy Redman Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think there are any ill intentions behind the HHH/McMahon promos towards Bryan, and I think people are overreacting to how casual fans will respond to it. Them calling Bryan short and ugly are just playing into their characters, and the idea is that the fans resent it and rally behind him. Maybe it's too inside. But people have been claiming these burials of Bryan since August, and he's more over than ever. So either he's just that impossible to bury, or the internet doesn't have its finger on the pulse of the normal fan. He's more over than ever, but it seemingly still doesn't translate to people actually spending money on him or tuning into his segments. It's worth exploring why that is I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's also frustrating because Bryan usually doesn't have a scathing burn to counter the insults. He usually just smirks it off. I can remember him implying that Stephanie was a bitch last summer but not much else. There is so much material for him to use on Hunter and Steph and non of it has been used. Maybe they were saving that stuff for Punk In the few times I watched RAW, and this was back after Summerslam, what I saw were promos burying Bryan with the heels all in the ring and him just standing on the outside taking it all while breathing heavily. I don't know if things have progressed from there, but that's just ass-backwards in terms of wrestling logic. The problem is that HHH and Steph don't really show much vulnerability. Heels are meant to be shit-scared of faces. Think back to Austin vs. McMahon. There McMhaon had ALL of the power, all of the backup, he was built up as the big boss. Yet, McMahon always always gave you the impression that Austin was a total badass who would kick his ass. He was scared of Austin. On promos he'd never run Austin DOWN, he'd actually be talking him up but a la wrestling 101 talking up the extent of his retribution even more. That's why Vince McMahon is one of the greatest heels of all time. McMahon would be a dick, but Austin would get his payback spots. Always. Again, HHH was there, and he seems to have learned nothing at all from it. They can't leave Bryan fuming on the side of the ring after he's just been verbally buried. Visually, it makes him look weak and ineffectual. If the ACTIONS are reaffirming what the heels are saying week after week, then they are in effect burying the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 to be completely honest I wasn't annoyed at all by the story during all the beatdowns and insults in August and September. It was him not going over at HIAC that righteously pissed me off. Remember it was reported at the time that the company felt Bryan was elevated by the program but there were no plans for him in the title picture for the rest of the year (which turned out to be completely correct) With the plans for Mania it was obvious he wasn't penciled in for a big match. So he was never scheduled to get revenge on the authority. They never thought he would remain this over and probably saw him as Rey type that was over and would occasionally slide into a main event once in a while. The loss at HIAC was their way of illustrating that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's also frustrating because Bryan usually doesn't have a scathing burn to counter the insults. He usually just smirks it off. I can remember him implying that Stephanie was a bitch last summer but not much else. There is so much material for him to use on Hunter and Steph and non of it has been used. Maybe they were saving that stuff for Punk In the few times I watched RAW, and this was back after Summerslam, what I saw were promos burying Bryan with the heels all in the ring and him just standing on the outside taking it all breathing heavily. I don't know if things have progressed from there, but that's just ass-backwards in terms of wrestling logic. The problem is that HHH and Steph don't really show much vulnerability. Heels are meant to be shit-scared of faces. Think back to Austin vs. McMahon. There McMhaon had ALL of the power, all of the backup, he was built up as the big boss. Yet, McMahon always always gave you the impression that Austin was a total badass who would kick his ass. He was scared of Austin. On promos he'd never run Austin DOWN, he'd actually be talking him up but a la wrestling 101 talking up the extent of his retribution even more. That's why Vince McMahon is one of the greatest heels of all time. McMahon would be a dick, but Austin would get his payback spots. Always. Again, HHH was there, and he seems to have learned nothing at all from it. The can't leave Bryan fuming on the side of the ring after he's just been verbally buried. Visually, it makes him look weak and ineffectual. If the ACTIONS are reaffirming what the heels are saying week after week, then they are in effect burying the face. Now, instead of either taking it or rushing into the ring and getting demolished (which I kind of preferred), he came out on Monday and seemed to be trying to actively use the crowd to take over the show. I likened it on DVDVR to the world's most passive aggressive version of Sid coming down and destroying a crusierweight match or Macho Man sitting in the middle of the ring in a chair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 to be completely honest I wasn't annoyed at all by the story during all the beatdowns and insults in August and September. It was him not going over at HIAC that righteously pissed me off. Remember it was reported at the time that the company felt Bryan was elevated by the program but there were no plans for him in the title picture for the rest of the year (which turned out to be completely correct) With the plans for Mania it was obvious he wasn't penciled in for a big match. So he was never scheduled to get revenge on the authority. They never thought he would remain this over and probably saw him as Rey type that was over and would occasionally slide into a main event once in a while. The loss at HIAC was their way of illustrating that Yeah, I think if people really thought the happy ending was coming, people would invest in Bryan and he would have tangible things we could point to that would show that he's a draw. Because a guy getting that type of reaction and not moving numbers makes no sense otherwise. It just doesn't add up. I would buy that it was just about "Yes" being over if they weren't also chanting his name so much. Clearly there were no plans for the happy ending for him initially. They even briefly tried giving Big Show the "Yes". I think we're going to get it now because fans have forced their hand, so that's a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Also, I don't think the promos were malicious necessarily -- like they hated the guy and didn't want him to be over anymore. I think it was more a case of them being misguided. But if you ask why the chants are so loud but he's not moving the needle, the promos would be my answer to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Also, I don't think the promos were malicious necessarily -- like they hated the guy and didn't want him to be over anymore. I think it was more a case of them being misguided. But if you ask why the chants are so loud but he's not moving the needle, the promos would be my answer to that. I agree that they aren't malicious. Johnny is right that the company doesn't want to say no to free money. I'm not sure if "misguided" is the word I'd go for because it gives them almost too much credit. It just seems like bad work to me, plain and simple. You could look at the writers, but I can imagine this exact angle with a more competent promo and it working better. Swap out HHH for Vince, Hogan, Flair, Regal, shit Angle even, take your pick and it would have been better because those guys know how to play heels. It's not just the words coming out of his mouth, it's everything: body language, facial expressions, everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Also, I don't think the promos were malicious necessarily -- like they hated the guy and didn't want him to be over anymore. I think it was more a case of them being misguided. But if you ask why the chants are so loud but he's not moving the needle, the promos would be my answer to that. Johnny is right that the company doesn't want to say no to free money. Look, I know how counter-intuitive it is, but we can't take this as a given. Apparently, the way things are set up this year with the TV rights and stock price and what not, Vince is, for all practical purposes, a billionaire again. Look at the booking over time from 2001 when they won onwards. How many booking decisions feel like something to do with vanity or personal reasons or amusing/entertaining Vince or whatever else as opposed to creating the best possible product. Look back into the years before that, even. Wrestling is a screwed up, vindictive business/form of entertainment, full of money marks and extremely personal decisions. That was before Vince won the war. They've practically gone out of their way not to make new stars since 2004 when Brock left, between parity of results and stop-start pushing and making sure the WWE brand was more important than any single wrestler. They'd absolutely leave money on the table for the world's worst reasons. How can you possibly take the opposite as a given when there are dozens and dozens of examples otherwise? Obviously the primary goal is to make money and they have the stockholders to answer to now, but it's still a freaking circus and it's one more bulletproof than ever in 2014. Dave said that basically, they would have to have Death of WCW level destructive "talent" to screw up the business right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I even think all of this talk of him not moving the needle is overblown. They trusted him to anchor the company during football season with Cena out. That's a huge show of faith. And ratings were fine, they were the same as last year with Cena around. HITC did very well, and that was the show presented as the blowoff to the feud. NOC didn't do well domestically but did fine internationally, and guess what, it was the day after the Mayweather fight. Battleground did really badly but it came across as a totally worthless throwaway show. He hasn't moved numbers like Jeff Hardy, but did CM Punk move a bunch of numbers? MITB2011 did a bit better than usual but not as much as the internet hype indicated. He didn't have a really good one until the Ryback HITC 15 months after the pipe bomb. It's really tough to move numbers for B-shows in this era of overexposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm wondering if they knew he was going to stay this over and the crowd turning reactions would they go back and change the finish to HIAC if they could? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm wondering if they knew he was going to stay this over and the crowd turning reactions would they go back and change the finish to HIAC if they could? I wouldn't. Not if they're planning on doing it in the next few months. Screwing him over time and time again has made the crowd ravenous for his eventual triumph. When he wins, it's going to be one of the epic moments in company history, which it wouldn't have been last fall. As much at the internet hated him not winning last year, I think it could end up being the smart move. Mania is going to be a weekend-long lovefest with the guy. And Extreme Rules is going to be crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 If they do HHH/Bryan at Mania, Shawn has to be involved in the finish, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Elimination Chamber is in Minneapolis. My only sense of that crowd as fans are how afraid Verne was to book any heel with heat in 1981 there. That's probably not an up to date opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted January 30, 2014 Report Share Posted January 30, 2014 Elimination Chamber is in Minneapolis. My only sense of that crowd as fans are how afraid Verne was to book any heel with heat in 1981 there. That's probably not an up to date opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 I also don't think it's a given that WWE won't say no to free money. Look at Rey Mysterio. Based on how they've treated him, it's almost as if they resent the fact that he got over and drew money despite having so many red flags (small, weak promo, WCW guy). As for heel promos, I think the best way to look at it is a two-step test: 1. Could it be perceived as true? 2. If true, would it be damaging to the babyface? If the answer to both questions is yes, the heel shouldn't be saying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 It's not only that, but a heel promo should give something for the face to overcome in steps where it looks like he actually has a shot. If you keep piling it on and not have him overcome it, why keep cutting those promos? And usually, the answer is because guys can't bear to lose heat. Because God forbid the face goes over on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 If they do HHH/Bryan at Mania, Shawn has to be involved in the finish, right? God I hope not. Wrestlemania 25 was the last Mania where the two stayed out of each others build / match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Elimination Chamber is in Minneapolis. My only sense of that crowd as fans are how afraid Verne was to book any heel with heat in 1981 there. That's probably not an up to date opinion though. I will be there, and I'm a pretty loud guy, so that should come across on tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 As for heel promos, I think the best way to look at it is a two-step test: 1. Could it be perceived as true? 2. If true, would it be damaging to the babyface? If the answer to both questions is yes, the heel shouldn't be saying it. I think this is the best possible explanation of what I've been trying to say about promos. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 As for heel promos, I think the best way to look at it is a two-step test: 1. Could it be perceived as true? 2. If true, would it be damaging to the babyface? If the answer to both questions is yes, the heel shouldn't be saying it. I think this is the best possible explanation of what I've been trying to say about promos. Thank you. Yeah, but who sat there and said "you know, I really like Danial Bryan, but what asshole HHH said makes me think otherwise"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 But then if asshole HHH books himself to be right (which being the most insecure main eventer since Hogan, he does all the time) no matter how much you hate it, he's correct. You know much like according to HHH black people aren't championship material and he booked himself to be proven right in that thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 As for heel promos, I think the best way to look at it is a two-step test: 1. Could it be perceived as true? 2. If true, would it be damaging to the babyface? If the answer to both questions is yes, the heel shouldn't be saying it. I think this is the best possible explanation of what I've been trying to say about promos. Thank you. Yeah, but who sat there and said "you know, I really like Danial Bryan, but what asshole HHH said makes me think otherwise"? It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else. There's a reason heels weren't allowed to call Dusty Rhodes fat, or call Hulk Hogan bald, or comment on Austin's knee braces, or point out that Rock was wearing a t-shirt to hide the recovery from his bitch tits plastic surgery, or mention that Undertaker is a crippled has been that can't work a full schedule, or point and laugh because Jericho wore lifts in his boots to make himself appear taller. Hell, mentioning HHH and Stephanie's real relationship was a no-no for years because DX was supposed to be a rebellious group and he was married to a McMahon. Good wrestling presents people positively. Every wrestler has potential real weaknesses that could undermine them, and the idea is that you hide/avoid/downplay those things instead of making them the centerpiece of a feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Another example is that just two years ago, Rock called Cena inauthentic and suburban (I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something to that effect) in a video package to build Mania 28 and WWE edited that line out after the first airing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else.But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Bennett Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 It's more that people see the surface level stuff and think "This guy is a wrestler? He's short and kind of a geek", then HHH reinforces that thought by mentioning those things in a promo. Then the guy has a title match and loses. So I guess HHH was right all along. The bad guys won and were correct. Wrestling is depressing. I'm about to go do something else.But no one thought that. Not one human fucking being went "Well, HHH is right." Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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