WWE Network... It's Here

[The Thread Killer]

I ordered the Network tonight to have it in time for Wrestlemania for the first time. I should say it is a good cheap way to watch a payperview, but that seems like the only reason for it. Maybe it is because of where I live in Canada or who my TV service provider is, but there is no on demand content and no way to view on demand programming on the website as my provider is not listed. So there is only the live feed, which besides the PPVs and specials, the only actual wrestling programming seems to be NXT and I guess Superstars. The rest seems to be WWE's crap reality and informational programming that I avoid already on the regular tv. Very disappointing.

 

I'm in the exact same boat as you. In Canada, we get to pay more for the Network, but on the plus side, we get LESS content! I ordered it for the Hall of Fame, and Wrestlemania, plus NXT. It pretty much pays for itself with that, plus the Podcasts and other specials, but having no On Demand content sucks.

[C.S.]

 

I watched the Michael Hayes episode of Legends with JBL. It was surprisingly hard-hitting. He addresses whether he's a racist, goes into the Mark Henry situation, and talks about the Confederate Flag. He also tells a bunch of great stories about the Freebirds and shares a controversial theory about the death of Geno Hernandez. Plus, he's rocking an insane purple getup that only he could pull off. Really great episode, and I think it might change some minds about Michael Hayes.

 

It sure changed my mind about Hayes. I used to think he was a drunk, racist moron. Now I think he's delusional drunk racist moron, who dresses like Jack Nicholson in Batman.

 

 

JBL jumped all over the place with his questions, but even worse was Michael Hays claiming that back in the 70's and 80's the Confederate Flag wasn't considered the racist symbol that it is today...that's a recent thing. He actually had the balls to act somewhat puzzled about people thinking he was racist, like JBL had to explain it to him, then he understood.

 

Oh, and he only used "The N Word" because he used to listen to a lot of Richard Pryor albums, so he thought it was okay for people to call each other that.

 

And when he did use it with Mark Henry, he was drunk.

 

And by the way, he's not racist, because he has a black daughter.

 

Well, not black, half-black.

 

Well, she wasn't his daughter, she was his second wife's daughter, from a previous marriage.

 

And she never lived with them when he was with his second wife.

 

And he and his second wife are not together anymore.

 

But he still has a good relationship with her daughter.

 

So...not racist, see?

 

Michael Hays came across as staggeringly disingenuous and self-deluded to me in this interview. He's one of those old timers who is such a carny I think he's actually conned himself into believing some of his own bullshit.

 

We won't even get into the bizarre "If David Von Erich had lived, Fritz might have beat Vince McMahon to nation expansion" theory that he and JBL discussed, or his bizarre answers on the Gino Hernandez questions. "I don't believe he overdosed, but I'm not saying he was murdered, but I'm not saying anything else, no matter how many times you ask."

 

 

 

It sounds to me like you are predisposed to hate Hayes and see everything he says and does in the worst possible light.

 

I thought he sounded pretty genuine, and I say that as someone who acknowledges that he absolutely came across as an obnoxious ass on some of the Legends Roundtables, etc.

 

The Confederate Flag did not have the same racist connotations in the '70s and '80s. I'm not saying it wasn't racist at all, but for God's sake, The Dukes of Hazzard featured it on their show every week for six years - from 1979 to 1985 - and no one thought twice about it. It was a different time, and the Freebird costumes were part of that. Obviously, now it's a different story with the Confederate Flag - yes, today it's primarily used by racists to promote racism - but it used to stand for other things too. You have to remember the context of the time. It was even on the Georgia state flag, for crying out loud.

 

All of that doesn't mean Hayes or wrestling should get a free pass - of course not - but you can't just slap 2016 standards onto 1985 either.

 

As for the stuff with his daughter, he was just being honest. He could have easily exaggerated the story and used her to make himself look better - "look at me, I'm not racist." Instead, he admitted she never lived with him, etc.

[fakeplastictrees]

So racist wallpaper is okay? There were blacks trying to go to school and get civil rights in the 60's and all of a sudden 1974 rolls around and the confederate flag was okay? a flag used by the KKK during demonstrations against blacks, gays, jews, etc. was all peachy keen at 8PM when The Dukes Of Hazzard came on? Sorry man, but the flag was always a flag of hate and no amount of pro wrestling carny revisionist bullshit is going to change that. Citing the fact that some states still have the flag of treason, segregation, racism, slavery, and hate flying above its state capitol, doesn't make it right or your point valid.

[C.S.]

So racist wallpaper is okay? There were blacks trying to go to school and get civil rights in the 60's and all of a sudden 1974 rolls around and the confederate flag was okay? a flag used by the KKK during demonstrations against blacks, gays, jews, etc. was all peachy keen at 8PM when The Dukes Of Hazzard came on? Sorry man, but the flag was always a flag of hate and no amount of pro wrestling carny revisionist bullshit is going to change that. Citing the fact that some states still have the flag of treason, segregation, racism, slavery, and hate flying above its state capitol, doesn't make it right or your point valid.

 

It's not about right or wrong - it's about what perceptions were at the time. The Confederate Flag was on a hit TV show, on the Georgia State Flag, on the Freebirds' attire, and all over the place. That pretty much makes it an irrefutable fact that a ton of people were okay with it back then, and I refuse to believe all of them were racist. The flag had multiple meanings at the time. Now, it really symbolizes only one thing - racism - and therefore definitely isn't acceptable anymore. The Nazi logo was originally a Japanese peace symbol. Does that mean all ancient Japanese people were raging anti-semites? Nope.

[Johnny Sorrow]

There was a point in the 70's and 80's where the Stars and Bars were just a "rebel" thing, aka Dukes and Skynard. It was ignorant to how it probably made black people feel, but that's what it was.

 

So Ride Along has been great, but the new one is over produced and over scripted. Totally stinks.

[MoS]

 

So racist wallpaper is okay? There were blacks trying to go to school and get civil rights in the 60's and all of a sudden 1974 rolls around and the confederate flag was okay? a flag used by the KKK during demonstrations against blacks, gays, jews, etc. was all peachy keen at 8PM when The Dukes Of Hazzard came on? Sorry man, but the flag was always a flag of hate and no amount of pro wrestling carny revisionist bullshit is going to change that. Citing the fact that some states still have the flag of treason, segregation, racism, slavery, and hate flying above its state capitol, doesn't make it right or your point valid.

 

It's not about right or wrong - it's about what perceptions were at the time. The Confederate Flag was on a hit TV show, on the Georgia State Flag, on the Freebirds' attire, and all over the place. That pretty much makes it an irrefutable fact that a ton of people were okay with it back then, and I refuse to believe all of them were racist. The flag had multiple meanings at the time. Now, it really symbolizes only one thing - racism - and therefore definitely isn't acceptable anymore. The Nazi logo was originally a Japanese peace symbol. Does that mean all ancient Japanese people were raging anti-semites? Nope.

 

 

Hindu peace symbol, not a Japanese peace symbol. And there is a huge difference between Hitler appropriating the swastika, which is still used in India ubiquitously, including on the wall of the apartment I am living in currently, taking the word "Aryan" from the Sanskrit language, and using it to his own end, and people continuing to use the Confederate flag, when the very origin of that flag was mired in bigotry and hatred. Horrible analogy.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Oh and this whole "Gino was murdered" thing is terrible. Gary Hart's thing was about how there was all that coke in his stomach! You don't eat cocaine!" No, but you snort it and then it gets into your mucous, which you swallow. That's how blow works .

[flyonthewall2983]

I thought we established that Gary Hart didn't think he was murdered?

 

I'm not sure the Von Erichs could have overthrown Vince, but it's interesting to ponder what would have happened if none of them died and what became WCW was based out of Dallas instead of Atlanta. The NWA could have had a stronghold in that part of the country that would have been much harder for Vince to break through. That still would have left him the major American markets like NYC, Chicago and Los Angeles to call mostly his own.

[Scarlet-Left]

Has Bret Hart commented at all on making them take down the Stampede footage yet?

This intrigues me. What's happened?

[flyonthewall2983]

They put up Stampede footage some months ago in a deluge with other territory footage, but it was taken down not that long after.

[SteveJRogers]

The deal with Bret includes needing his permission to use footage from Stampede, and that was forgotten about when the footage was uploaded.

[C.S.]

Hindu peace symbol, not a Japanese peace symbol. And there is a huge difference between Hitler appropriating the swastika, which is still used in India ubiquitously, including on the wall of the apartment I am living in currently, taking the word "Aryan" from the Sanskrit language, and using it to his own end, and people continuing to use the Confederate flag, when the very origin of that flag was mired in bigotry and hatred. Horrible analogy.

I used the analogy because it's the same as what that poster is doing - imposing current standards onto something that had a different meaning, or at least multiple meanings, in the '70s and '80s.

 

There was a point in the 70's and 80's where the Stars and Bars were just a "rebel" thing, aka Dukes and Skynard. It was ignorant to how it probably made black people feel, but that's what it was.

Exactly. People need to take historical context into account if they're going to argue about something. You can't just take 2016 standards and retroactively apply them to 1985.

 

Characters in Twain's books owned slaves, which obviously isn't good, but you can't suddenly say Twain wrote them as villains when he didn't necessarily do that. It was a different time, with different standards and different perceptions. You can look back and say how backward those characters were by today's standards, but you can't say the author intended them to be bad people just because that's the way they'd be seen now.

 

I understand not wanting to give Michael Hayes the benefit of the doubt because of Mark Henry and other incidents, but the fact is, the Rebel Flag outfits the Freebirds wore did not give them racist heat at the time. That was clearly not the intention back then.

[Fando]

 

Hindu peace symbol, not a Japanese peace symbol. And there is a huge difference between Hitler appropriating the swastika, which is still used in India ubiquitously, including on the wall of the apartment I am living in currently, taking the word "Aryan" from the Sanskrit language, and using it to his own end, and people continuing to use the Confederate flag, when the very origin of that flag was mired in bigotry and hatred. Horrible analogy.

I used the analogy because it's the same as what that poster is doing - imposing current standards onto something that had a different meaning, or at least multiple meanings, in the '70s and '80s.

 

There was a point in the 70's and 80's where the Stars and Bars were just a "rebel" thing, aka Dukes and Skynard. It was ignorant to how it probably made black people feel, but that's what it was.

Exactly. People need to take historical context into account if they're going to argue about something. You can't just take 2016 standards and retroactively apply them to 1985.

 

Characters in Twain's books owned slaves, which obviously isn't good, but you can't suddenly say Twain wrote them as villains when he didn't necessarily do that. It was a different time, with different standards and different perceptions. You can look back and say how backward those characters were by today's standards, but you can't say the author intended them to be bad people just because that's the way they'd be seen now.

 

I understand not wanting to give Michael Hayes the benefit of the doubt because of Mark Henry and other incidents, but the fact is, the Rebel Flag outfits the Freebirds wore did not give them racist heat at the time. That was clearly not the intention back then.

 

 

Ha ha ha. Whaaat? Yup, no racist heat or baiting black people to see Hayes get his comeuppance after calling JYD "boy" either, I guess.

 

You wanna believe Hayes is genuine and give him a pass because most of the time it was a "state feud" thing, whatever. Good for you. But claiming no one in the south could've interpreted it in a racial way, and that they didn't play into that, is insulting.

[Grimmas]

I don't buy the argument that because everyone was racist means that someone is not racist. I hate when old people are racist and people laugh it off, well in their day and they are old arguments.

 

Racism is racism, whether it's accepted or not.

[JRH]

Have any other wrestlers who used the flag (Tracey Smothers for example) ever discussed its use in wrestling?

[artDDP]

They put up Stampede footage some months ago in a deluge with other territory footage, but it was taken down not that long after.

 

Wasn't the quality exceptional, too?

 

Is Vince so stubborn he just won't pay Bret whatever he wants for the rights to air the footage or does Vince just not care about the segment of the Network audience that would want it?

[sek69]

Probably doesn't think there's any worth in paying additional money for content they already clearly believe no one is interested.

[C.S.]

Anyone catch Stone Cold Podcast with Foley?

 

Fun hour, but kinda worried about Noelle becoming a wrestler and more than a bit surprised that Mick is okay with it. Austin was endearing as the grizzled old uncle type who was grilling her and clearly concerned about the prospect of her stepping into the squared circle.

[sek69]

I'd be more worried about his son that's a writers assistant on the creative team. Seems that burns people out faster anything else.

 

 

Plus she should be okay in the sense that it's not like she's going to be expected to be another Mick, they don't have the "divas" throw themselves off cages or go through flaming tables.

 

What could be interesting is that it's not obvious when you watch that most of the women in NXT and on the main roster are super tiny, and Noelle would look like the Big Show next to someone like Sasha Banks.

[fakeplastictrees]

C.S., I think there is something wrong with you. If a black women woke up and saw a Confederate flag in her front yard, she wouldn't think 'Oh! Looks like some rebel left it here over night!'. Not in 2016 and damn sure not in the 70's or 80's. when blacks have to deal with institutionalized racism on a day-to-day basis. Your point is silly and completely delusional. This is that pro wrestling bubble stuff.Murdering people for learning to read and write? It has become clear that some people on this board think those murderers were just good workers and understood heel psychology better than someone like Gary Hart.

[sek69]

I just think it's funny Hayes goes around in public dressed like A Pimp Named Slickback.

[Fando]

They just re-played the funeral/coffin dragging angle with Show and Bossman on the network. Good omen for this weekend's booking being utterly insane

[fxnj]

As someone who actually lives in southern US, I see the confederate flag relatively often and have always just seen it as a way of showing southern pride with nothing to do with racism. I've never seen anyone complain about it or act offended and I think that's because people who grew up in the region understand that there is far more to the history than just slavery and racism. The "confederate flag=racism and nothing more" talking point strikes me as something recently created by SJW's who don't know much about the region's history beyond the sterile and simplified version taught in middle school.

[C.S.]

C.S., I think there is something wrong with you. If a black women woke up and saw a Confederate flag in her front yard, she wouldn't think 'Oh! Looks like some rebel left it here over night!'. Not in 2016 and damn sure not in the 70's or 80's. when blacks have to deal with institutionalized racism on a day-to-day basis. Your point is silly and completely delusional. This is that pro wrestling bubble stuff.Murdering people for learning to read and write? It has become clear that some people on this board think those murderers were just good workers and understood heel psychology better than someone like Gary Hart.

 

And you call my post nonsensical and delusional?! Get a grip!

[Grimmas]

As someone who actually lives in southern US, I see the confederate flag relatively often and have always just seen it as a way of showing southern pride with nothing to do with racism. I've never seen anyone complain about it or act offended and I think that's because people who grew up in the region understand that there is far more to the history than just slavery and racism. The "confederate flag=racism and nothing more" talking point strikes me as something recently created by SJW's who don't know much about the region's history beyond the sterile and simplified version taught in middle school.

The black people in the South fly and feel the flag is just pride too?