Invasion 2001....Could it have paid off?

[Smack2k]

I am hoping some of you with more of the monetary background on wrestling in terms of buyrates / cash / profits made as well as salaries being made by the wrestlers and other costs, can help me out here as I try to figure out a question I have wondered about for a few years...

 

When the WWF Invasion PPV happened, it got a 1.43 buyrate (775,000 buys), which was a GREAT number. Judging from the shows before it:

 

Backlash - 375,000 buys - .94

Judgment Day - 405,000 buys - .75

King Of The Ring - 445,000 buys - .84

 

The idea of the Invasion and possibility of what could happen was BIG business...

 

Summerslam 2001 had a big drop afterward due to bad booking, but that is a story for another day...

 

My question is, since Invasion got such a huge buy (only Mania's were bigger) with the WCW / ECW talent they had, would it have been financially wise to have picked up a couple of the big contracts (with the thought that the talent said yes) and brought them in to lead up to Invasion /be in the Inaugural Brawl? I'd imagine that buyrate would have been even bigger (dont know how much) if some or all of Goldberg / Nash / Steiner / Flair / Sting came in as well..

 

So would it have been worth it?

 

Also, for the contracts, could they have just picked them up from Turner (AOL / Time Warner) and continued to pay them, or would they have had to pay them out an amount (Buyout) and sign them to a new deal? Not sure how that works either...

 

Steiner - $600,000 / year through Nov 2001

Nash - $1,625,000 / year - dont know when it ended

Sting - $1,000,000 / year through 2003 (maybe not)

Flair - $750,000 / Year (this must have ended as he showed up in Nov. 2001)

Goldberg - $2,000,000 / Year (tough)

 

So with all that, what do you think? I dont know how the buyouts or contracts would have worked, but curious if some or all showed up, could they have made money?

 

 

[Loss]

I don't know. They ended up signing almost all of them anyway, which makes me think in hindsight they simply should have postponed the entire thing until 2002.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still think they should have kept the WCW banner going and slow burned it. Since they did the brand split anyway, why not keep WCW? Surely that is a stronger brand that "WWE Blue" or whatever the fuck they ended up with.

 

Keep it going, but move Nitro or RAW to another day so they are no longer head to head. Build WCW back up. Make it a REAL deal for WCW wrestlers to show up on WWF TV and vice versa.

[Smack2k]

I meant more along the lines of doing the storyline they did up to Invasion but added some of those guys...The way the buyrate FELL after Invasion shows they either didnt have the power they needed for the Alliance + the royally fucked it up due to acting like a 12 year old that beat their competition and now wants to rub it in on them and prove how great they are, even knowing that they could make a TON more money by doing some really easy things....Fuck, if egos werent such a big deal, how cool could wrestling be!!

 

But money wise, could they have swung getting some of them, and if so, who?

 

I dont know the WWF Financial position in 2001 or how things looked, but I know some of you on here are deep into that shit, which I think is cool as shit, so I am hoping you could shed some light on it..

 

Loss, I tend to agree with you, but waiting that long may have lost a LOT of momentum...waiting till July hurt it somewhat...but again, could they afford to do it?

 

Parv, I think they wanted to have a WCW show on TNN or something on Sat nights, but the channels did not want something without the WWF name on them, or something like that and then the Booker T / Bagwell match buried it, even though it was never really given a shot and almost done to say "See, I told you, they suck, we win...crush them..." Must be nice to have enough money that driving a point into the ground instead of doing something easy to make a LOT more money is the choice you make..

[dawho5]

You also have to look at the way Vince handled a lot of the wrestlers who got big in the territories before he got ahold of them. Martel, JYD, etc. were all made into jokes when they finally came over to the WWF side for the money. I don't know exactly why, but Vince seemed to have a thing for trashing big acts that he didn't personally make into stars.

[Dooley]

Parv, I think they wanted to have a WCW show on TNN or something on Sat nights, but the channels did not want something without the WWF name on them, or something like that and then the Booker T / Bagwell match buried it, even though it was never really given a shot and almost done to say "See, I told you, they suck, we win...crush them..." Must be nice to have enough money that driving a point into the ground instead of doing something easy to make a LOT more money is the choice you make..

I've always wondered about that. The official version of history seems to say that WWF had plans for a WCW show on Spike post-takeover, but Spike thought the WCW brand was dead. Even at it's nadir, wouldn't Nitro have been doing better ratings than just about anything else on Spike? If they were that concerned about having "WCW" on their network, wouldn't their fears be assuaged by having WWF (the people they're used to dealing with) running it? How many TV executives would even be able to differentiate one rasslin' show from the other?

[Smack2k]

I NEVER understood that about WCW…even at its lowest, it was still getting bigger ratings than anything on TNT (or just about), but AOL/TW didn't want it on TV? I don't get why Jamie Kellner did that…its throwing money away, unless advertisers weren't interested in it, but with mid 2's ratings, it had to be appealing. But it could go back to the thread on here a week or so ago that talked about ratings not always equaling advertising dollars due to who is watching and getting those ratings…..

[Dooley]

I can understand the Turner networks deciding they no longer wanted wrestling on their platform. But that clearly wasn't the issue with Spike.

[Smack2k]

Right, it makes no sense if that is the true story...

 

"Hey Spike, want a show that will get you at LEAST 1+ ratings weekly?"

 

"No, it doesnt say WWF"

 

"But its owned by WWF, and you know how good they are these days.."

 

"No, it doesnt say WWF"

 

I think I forget that people are just fuckin stupid sometimes and stuck on what they believe

[victory]

From my understanding on the contract situation Timer Warner and AOL were the ones who had to offer buyouts. If the wrestler accepted then they were free to negotiate with WWE. The buyout offer for the big money contracts was anywhere from 30 cents to 50 cents on the dollar of the total contract. So you can't really blame someone for wanting to sit out the duration of their contract when they would lose half or more.

 

I think guys like Booker T and DDP accepted the buyout due to their age and the chance to hopefully make even bigger money. Not sure what their original contracts were though. So maybe they weren't losing as much as say a Goldberg or Nash.

[Smack2k]

From my understanding on the contract situation Timer Warner and AOL were the ones who had to offer buyouts. If the wrestler accepted then they were free to negotiate with WWE. The buyout offer for the big money contracts was anywhere from 30 cents to 50 cents on the dollar of the total contract. So you can't really blame someone for wanting to sit out the duration of their contract when they would lose half or more.

 

I think guys like Booker T and DDP accepted the buyout due to their age and the chance to hopefully make even bigger money. Not sure what their original contracts were though. So maybe they weren't losing as much as say a Goldberg or Nash.

 

That makes total sense and would definately explain that happening....but Flair and Steiner they could have done, booked DDP better and you have a MUCH better Invasion

[sporadic]

You also have to look at the way Vince handled a lot of the wrestlers who got big in the territories before he got ahold of them. Martel, JYD, etc. were all made into jokes when they finally came over to the WWF side for the money. I don't know exactly why, but Vince seemed to have a thing for trashing big acts that he didn't personally make into stars.

 

Off topic: Vince's history of trashing stars gives me cause for concern for Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen and KENTA.

[FedEx227]

I'm working on a rather lengthy piece about the Invasion right now and watching some of the old shows. I agree with some of the bigger stars it could've been better but I'm not sure they would've been able to pull it off anyway.

 

It wasn't even the way they used the big stars but they had no clue what they were doing, even with the guys they had. Who are the faces? Who are the heels? Are the WCW guys evil or should we cheer for them? Shane's a babyface, but he's also running WCW who are heels? We liked most of these guys a few weeks ago but now they are attacking WWE heels and we're supposed to hate them because we're loyal to WWE?

 

It just never made sense, I don't think having Scott Steiner would've greatly improved it one way or another.

[Fantastic]

(fanwank dreambooking warning)

 

They should have always kept WCW going as a seperate brand under WWF/E ownership as it was originally intended. The culmination of the Invasion angle at Survivor Series would end with Vince triumphing over Shane to gain control over both companies. The next night on Raw, Linda would return and reveal that the WWF board of directors have decreed that WCW is far too lucrative to simply be destroyed to satisfy Vince's need to conquer and therefore must continue. The brand split would then occur. with Vengenace being the PPV where all titles were on the line with those being recognised as brand champions by the end of that PPV being the first draftees to either WWF Raw or WCW Nitro based on what championships they held (the WWF Women's Champion and European Champion(s) would be WWF exclusive because they have no equivalent). Let's say it looked something like this:

 

WWF Champion: Steve Austin (Raw)

WCW Champion: Chris Jericho (Nitro)

WWF Intercontinental Champion: Edge (Raw)

WCW United States Champion: Kurt Angle (Nitro)

WWF Tag Team Champions: The Hardy Boys (Raw)

WCW Tag Team Champions: DDP and Kanyon (Nitro)

WWF Light Heavyweight Champion: Billy Kidman (Raw)

WCW Cruiserweight Champion: X Pac (Nitro)

WWF Hardcore Champion: Rob Van Dam (Raw)

WCW Hardcore Champion (lets just say they had it!): Rhyno (Nitro)

 

Vince and Linda would do the picks (Flair would come later, and be appointed Nitro GM), they'd each get 10 that they could pick themselves (asides from champions exclusive to each brand following Vengeance) , before a supplemental draft would determine the rest:

 

 

WWF Raw (Vince)

 

Steve Austin (Champion)

Edge (Champion)

Jeff Hardy (Champion)

Matt Hardy (Champion)

Billy Kidman (Champion)

Rob Van Dam (Champion)

+10 names, mostly suited to the WWF style

 

WCW Nitro (Linda)

 

Chris Jericho (Champion)

Kurt Angle (Champion)

DDP (Champion)

Kanyon (Champion)

X Pac (Champion)

Rhyno (Champion)

+10 names, mostly suited to the WCW style

 

 

Anyway, fast forward to post-Wrestlemania 2004 (which would be a dual brand supershow featuring stand alone brand matches AND interpromotional matches) and the brands might look something like:

 

 

WWE Monday Night Raw: 2004 Raw as it was, less WCW names and older talent

 

WWE Champion: Chris Benoit

WWE Intercontinental Champion: Randy Orton

WWE Tag Team Champions: Chris Benoit and Edge

WWE Women's Champion: Trish Stratus

WWE Cruiserweight Champion: Tajiri

 

WCW Thursday Nitro: Essentially 2004's Smackdown, but more WCW names and newer talent

 

WCW World Heavyweight Champion: Eddie Guerrero

WCW United States Champion: John Cena

WCW Tag Team Champions: Billy Kidman and Rey Mysterio

WCW Women's Champion: Victoria

WCW Cruiserweight Champion: Ultimo Dragon

[Kil]

 

You also have to look at the way Vince handled a lot of the wrestlers who got big in the territories before he got ahold of them. Martel, JYD, etc. were all made into jokes when they finally came over to the WWF side for the money. I don't know exactly why, but Vince seemed to have a thing for trashing big acts that he didn't personally make into stars.

 

Off topic: Vince's history of trashing stars gives me cause for concern for Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen and KENTA.

 

 

The idea that Vince McMahon would give enough thought to any of those guys to consider them "stars" worth "trashing" seems highly dubious.

[Matt D]

And hey, either it goes well or the internet will be hilarious to watch. Win, win.

[Petey]

 

 

You also have to look at the way Vince handled a lot of the wrestlers who got big in the territories before he got ahold of them. Martel, JYD, etc. were all made into jokes when they finally came over to the WWF side for the money. I don't know exactly why, but Vince seemed to have a thing for trashing big acts that he didn't personally make into stars.

 

Off topic: Vince's history of trashing stars gives me cause for concern for Prince Devitt, Kevin Steen and KENTA.

 

 

The idea that Vince McMahon would give enough thought to any of those guys to consider them "stars" worth "trashing" seems highly dubious.

 

Yeah I was gonna say that I think sporadic and Vince define 'stars' quite differently. That's not a knock on the aforementioned trio as I've seen a lot of Steen and KENTA and think both are great. I've never seen Devitt but have always heard great things. But yeah, being successful on the US indies and/or Japan's big wrestling scene is probably not enough to make Vince consider them 'stars'.

 

As for the actual topic, I know everyone says the angle was impossible to screw up, but I disagree. First, the WWF obviously didn't execute it well as business was largely down (save for the Invasion pay-per-view itself), so there's proof alone that it was possible to screw up. Second, the timing was bad. I first heard of the news on the Friday night before the WrestleMania 17 go-home Raw. So the WWF is in full fledged Mania mode with everything for the card set and now rather than continue on like planned, they make the biggest acquisition in the history of the business and need to address it. I think if they were able to make the purchase right after WrestleMania, they would have greatly benefited because the post-WrestleMania time period is always a lull and they're usually just treading water until SummerSlam. This would have been a great way to garner interest in the in-between period. From a storyline perspective, WWF would have been in a more "clean slate" and wouldn't have had any real established storylines that would have needed to be completed with WCW on top of it.

 

Like others have mentioned, babyface Shane owning heel WCW hurt it from the beginning. I get why they did it-- add even more fuel to the McMahon vs. McMahon match and set the stage for a mega McMahon vs. McMahon feud-- but it wound up just confusing the fans as to who they should cheer. They would have been better off going with Vince buying WCW and he's gonna run it as a separate brand and now make twice the money.

 

I think one of the issues they ran into in terms of running WCW as its own brand was that they didn't bring in enough wrestlers in order for WCW to operate as its own entity. I don't just mean at the top of the card, but WCW/The Alliance always felt more like a big stable as opposed to a total self-efficient company. I do think Vince really needed to bring in Goldberg, Sting and Flair on top of the guys he did bring in. Steiner and Mysterio wouldn't have hurt either. With more name power and a more fleshed out undercard, WCW as its own brand would have been more viable. I don't think you needed Hogan/Hall/Nash, at least in the very beginning, as I think the fans were pretty done with them aside from as a nostalgia act(s).

 

I guess if you wanted to look at it from an angle perspective, all the WWF really needed to do was bring in Goldberg, Sting and Flair and have WCW actually look like a threat. Making it look like real outsiders like the early nWo attacks in WCW would also have helped. But all of this is a fantasy and had almost no chance of happening. It's a shame but I don't think there was any reasonable way that the execution could have lived up to the hype.

[goc]

Spike didn't want a Saturday Night WCW show because they were still trying to rebrand themselves as a mainstream channel and didn't want to be stigmatized as "the wrestling channel." I don't even think they were Spike TV at that point, they may have still been TNN - The National Network.

[Migs]

I think the issue is that Shane was initially a babyface because they wanted everyone to like WCW - they were setting up a new show (Nitro), and no one was going to watch the heel show. You want the fans to be rooting for Shane to support the new show.

 

Of course, they then ran the Bagwell-Booker match and decided they couldn't do a WCW show... well, now they feel they have to just run the straight invasion angle, but that's not really going to work with a face WCW. But the heel turn on Shane was pretty hasty and pretty poor, which made the whole angle muddled and direction-less.

 

The night where ECW showed up was very exciting (Heyman's initial promo is tremendous)... but then they rushed into uniting ECW and WCW, which really sucked the energy out of the angle. They became not invading promotions, but the "Alliance," essentially a generic heel stable fighting the WWF. No energy to that at all.

[Dooley]

Spike didn't want a Saturday Night WCW show because they were still trying to rebrand themselves as a mainstream channel and didn't want to be stigmatized as "the wrestling channel." I don't even think they were Spike TV at that point, they may have still been TNN - The National Network.

 

But they added WWF programming in that timeslot right afterwards didn't they? Velocity and Confidential?

[Smack2k]

I thought about this while building a new GOLD image for the VM Ware Enviornment at work today....

 

I think the Invasion could have been made WAY better, with not a huge expense, with three moves:

 

1. Get Scott Steiner to sign and bring him in under the heel Big Poppa Pump character and let him be Big Poppa Pump, bad ass, bad interviews and all...his attitude on screen in that character was fuckin gold...

 

2. Get Flair in earlier (4 months earlier), and make him the Heyman of WCW...Shane and Steph could still be owners as that made sense with the money and the idea of ECWCW actually is good with the talent that had.

 

3. Book DDP better when he comes in as an actual main eventer and a star, not getting destroyed by Taker repeatitively and then Taker's wife.

 

Steiner can show up at Invasion and cost WWF the match. You can keep the same team at Invasion as it actually works with the last REAL ECW Tag Team (Dudley's) / The last TV / World ECW Champ, Booker as the last and reigning WCW US / World Champ and a MUCH better booked DDP, who was the heart and soul of WCW... Have Flair get involved as well at Invasion..

 

Then you can go from there with storylines and if you want to bring the NWO in later, it could work if say WWF was taking the lead in the promotional battle come early '02...

 

Sting and Goldberg had HUGE deals and it wouldnt have been worth it at the time, but down the road having them show up could work, if the storyline isnt over by then...

 

Thoughts?

[iamthedoctor]

I still think they should have kept the WCW banner going and slow burned it. Since they did the brand split anyway, why not keep WCW? Surely that is a stronger brand that "WWE Blue" or whatever the fuck they ended up with.

 

Keep it going, but move Nitro or RAW to another day so they are no longer head to head. Build WCW back up. Make it a REAL deal for WCW wrestlers to show up on WWF TV and vice versa.

 

For me I always wanted to see a third main show added called Nitro under the WWE banner. They could and should have kept it going for years to come. You have the WWE guys on Raw/SD but keep the WCW guys on Nitro.

 

Have them sharing the PPVs but every so often have the odd WCW guy interfering in a WWE match to further a feud & have a big show like wrestlemania where you could see a WCW vs WWE match.

[Jesse Ewiak]

I know somebody else said this on another board, podcast, or something, but you really needed two people for the Invasion to work - Goldberg and Flair. If they're involved, WCW feels like the WCW that was actually successful and has the spirit of WCW that frankly, Booker and DDP never had.

[Petey]

I would include Sting in that, maybe even more than Goldberg. While Booker, DDP and Scott Steiner were all main eventers at some point in WCW, Flair and Sting were the backbone of WCW forever and Goldberg was the hottest act they created during the Nitro era.

[thebrainfollower]

My ideal booking goes something like this. Night after Mania, you do the Austin/HHH team up halfway through the show for a beatdown on Rock, Taker saves. At the end of the show you have the rematch booked with HHH/Vince in Austin's corner and Taker in Rock's. Opening exchange big brawl and everyone hits the ring. Lights go out.

 

Lights come back on and Bischoff, Sting, Goldberg, Steiner, DDP, possibly Booker T, Hall and Nash are surrounding the ring. (I leave out Hogan because I can see him being brought in later as a face making more sense and nobody wants to boo Flair anyway). The WCW guys hit the ring and absolutely brutalize the WWF talent. The one sided ass kicking of all ass kickings. Leaving em laying. Shane McMahon comes out and shakes Bischoff's hand as Vince is held up to watch, in shock. Shane hands over a contract stating he's selling his WCW back to Bischoff as well as his part of the WWF to get further revenge on his dad. Bischoff nods, hugs him then has his guys beat the heck out of Shane too just to be a douche. Then finally Vince is beaten down horribly, so bad he's in a pool of his own blood. Bischoff grabs a mike and turns Vince over to face him. "You put us out of business Vinnie Mac? Good for you. We're gonna put you in the FN grave" and slams the mike down.

 

And next PPV Goldberg as Bane and Austin as Batman goes pretty much like the first fight in DKR rises as WCW runs rampant for a year over WWF. WM XVIII is booked as the ultimate WWF revenge show with them finally conquering the unstoppable Goldberg with Rock which might entice him to stay around a lot more than playing third fiddle to HHH/Austin did.