2014 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame thread

[mookeighana]

 

 

Nice job, Chris. It looks like I won't need to be tracking these after all, since you had every ballot that I had, plus others, and can probably obtain more anonymous ballots than I could, so I'll drop out of the ballot collection and wish you well with this.

 

 

Someone suggested the project to me on Twitter. I started hunting ballots. Half-way through I came across your post and I felt bad because it seemed like I just swooped in unannounced and stole your thunder! I did want to apologize for that because that wasn't my intention. It was really just two people doing the same thing at the same time.

 

Glad you confirmed that I haven't missed any ballots (yet) that you saw. I really had no clue if I missed any.

[Alan4L]

So apparently Crockett Sr, Westin and Matysik votes in the non-wrestler section make you a voter in historical.

 

Really wish that was stipulated in the list because now by voting for Crockett Sr, I'm going to be a No vote on all the historical candidates which I feel terrible about.

[Dylan Waco]

That also may explain the radical drop for Torres last year

[KrisZ]

Again the whole bracket system is so ridiculous

[DylanZero]

Well this sucks. No wonder Torres and Wrestling II aren't getting any traction.

[goc]

I'm happy to see RNR Express getting so much support but am really disappointed about Wrestling II.

[KrisZ]

Like a lot of people on the historical ballot if prime footage of them was more available the case could be made easier for those that didn't see them in their prime.

[goc]

How many other wrestlers have been invited to a Presidential Inauguration?

[shakla]

Shameful that somebody who plainly has nothing but disdain for pro wrestling draws a paycheck writing about it professionally. His argument for both Brock and Ventura is that they accomplished things outside of wrestling that he presents as superior to wrestling accomplishments and doesn't connect these accomplishments to their wrestling careers whatsoever.

 

Along those lines, should Gene Okerlund get any extra consideration for starting up (or lending his likeness to) Mean Gene's Burgers? Or Jimmy Hart for having that one hit song in the 60s?

[El Boricua]

The Non-wrestlers being presented separately except when counting the votes for their percentage and the Esperanto bracket just mess things up for many candidates. That's without getting into the new 15 year rule. Hopefully the casualties are minimal.

[mookeighana]

Updated with some additional ballots.

 

People trending over 40%

AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA -- Carlos Colon (12 out of 12) = 100%

EUROPE -- Big Daddy (2 out of 4) = 50%

HISTORICAL -- Stanley Weston (7 out of 16) = 44%

JAPAN -- Gran Hamada (6 out of 13) = 46%

JAPAN -- Jun Akiyama (6 out of 13) = 46%

MEXICO -- Cien Caras (8 out of 9) = 89%

MEXICO -- El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro (5 out of 9) = 56%

MEXICO -- Karloff Lagarde (4 out of 9) = 44%

MODERN -- Brock Lesnar (9 out of 22) = 41%

MODERN -- Dick Murdoch (10 out of 22) = 45%

MODERN -- Ivan Koloff (12 out of 22) = 55%

MODERN -- Jerry Jarrett (10 out of 22) = 45%

MODERN -- Jesse Ventura (10 out of 22) = 45%

MODERN -- Jimmy Hart (10 out of 22) = 45%

MODERN -- Rock & Roll Express (Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson) (17 out of 22) = 77%

[Dylan Waco]

Dylan I see you didn't vote Murdoch. Did the podcast and the data drops not convince you enough? Also if you could have had another 2 spots would Murdoch make your ballot? It still seemed like you had a couple more people ahead of Murdoch. Final question what kept Murdoch off your ballot? I'm curious if Kris, Will, or Keith can address it? Or make a counter argument?

 

I decided to turn in my ballot a few days before the deadline, so by the time the podcast had dropped my ballot was already in Dave's hands. I was very glad to see the podcast had been done, because Murdoch is a candidate that I have found increasingly bothersome over the last couple of years. I said this on the Voices of Wrestling Podcast I did on the modern candidates, but if you put a gun to my head and asked "is Dick Murdoch a Hall of Famer?" I would say yes. Still I felt uncomfortable voting for him for two reasons.

 

1. I think his supporters have overplayed their hands a bit. This is tough because by supporters I am talking about a lot of people I am friendly with, not the old timers who have voted for Dick for years but don't talk about this sort of stuff publicly. Here my point is that up until the podcast and the research being presented by Keith, Kris and Will in the other thread, the general line on Murdoch has been "come on it's Dick Murdoch, he has to be in!" He's been on the ballot for fifteen years and I'm not sure I've seen a meaningfully detailed argument presented for him prior to this week. The one exception is Will and a few others saying "he should be in on work alone," but A. I don't believe anyone should go in on work alone and B. even if I did I don't think Murdoch is even close to the level of worker I would feel comfortable putting in just on work.

 

2. The argument by assertion for Murdoch bothers me even more because I think he's the exact sort of candidate that needs to be researched and deserved to be researched. I don't say this because I think guys like Murdoch don't deserve to go in, but because I believe researching them is the way that we can show that the standard concept of strong territorial stars (especially heels) is often flawed. It's not just "was a guy a traveling NWA champion or a monster heel with a crazy gimmick, okay they get in and everyone else can fuck off." That mentality is one that I think ruled the roost for a while, but research into guys like Patera, Shibuya, Koloff, Torres and others has shown to me that this is a really narrow way to look at wrestling history. Work needs to be shown on Murdoch to make the case because candidates of his ilk don't have the obvious go to's. That doesn't make them worse candidates. In fact it might make them BETTER candidates than a lot of people with stronger "traditional" credentials.

 

Would Murdoch have made my ballot if I had two extra spots? Prior to the podcast and data dumps no. After them? Still no, but not because I think Murdoch's case is weak, but rather because changes in the ballot hurt Murdoch to me. Yes he is one of the people in danger of dropping off via the 15 year purge rule (which Meltzer has now openly stated was designed to make it easier for modern candidates, something I think is ridiculous and will completely change the way I think about voting in the future), but he's nowhere near as strong a candidate in my mind as Cien Caras. I chose to vote Caras which opened the door for me as a lucha voter. From there I voted for Signo/Texano/Navarro and really should have voted for at least two other candidates, but I felt I had commitments elsewhere on the ballot. Murdoch did not need my vote as much as Hamada (I think Hamada is better candidate anyway to be honest), I don't think he is as strong a candidate as JYD or the RnRs, there is no way he was taking Patera's spot or even Ivan's, He's not in the same universe as Colon as a candidate, nor do I think he is nearly as strong as Torres. The only guy I could maybe see rating him over that made my ballot is Shibuya, but I'm still not convinced Murdoch is a better candidate (fairly lateral based on early research returns) and even still it would have been really hard for me to vote Murdoch over Villano III or The Andersons.

 

If the 15 year rule didn't exist I probably would not have voted lucha. If that happens there is a good chance my ballot would look like this:

 

Torres, JYD, RnRs, Colon, Shibuya, Patera, Koloff, Hamada, The Andersons and Murdoch. Though even then there is a chance I would have voted for a second Japanese candidate or Lewin over Murdoch (or even two Japanese candidates as Taue, Volk Han and The Sharpes are all candidates I really like for one reason or another).

 

What theoretically helps Murdoch with me is that I think at least a few of my picks will go in (Colon, Caras and the RnR's), plus I think at least two will fall off the ballot all together (Patera and Shibuya). Having said that if Patera falls off Murdoch is basically forever fucked with me because Ken dropping off so easily will change the way I vote. From that point on I will never again vote for any candidate who is not clearly and easily better than Patera. While I can see an argument for Murdoch over Patera, it's not a clear and easy case. So if Patera drops from the ballot, Murdoch drops from my radar.

[ohtani's jacket]

I guess Caras is a stronger candidate than Murdoch based on the record gates he drew, though I'm not sure why a higher degree of research should go into Murdoch than it's seemingly necessary for Casas or the Misioneros, but Hamada? Murdoch seems like a bigger deal than Gran Hamada ever was.

[Dylan Waco]

Was Murdoch as influential as Hamada? To me Hamada is an influence candidate. I think he has plusses as a draw that aren't that dissimilar to Murdoch's (never "the guy" in a huge money spot, but guy who could be plugged into main event slots and feuds in three different decades), but it's his weakest category. I think he's an outstanding worker based on what we have, but we have very little of his prime (though his post-prime MPro work I love).

 

Ideally every candidate should get a strong amount of research, though there are limits to what can be done based on availability of results, clippings, footage, et. I researched Hamada a good bit myself this year, but there is probably far less readily available on him than there is Murdoch. To me that makes it even worse than Murdoch hasn't gotten a thorough look over, but I'm biased because I went insane researching a guy who isn't even one of my favorites.

[goc]

Has the research on Murdoch confirmed that he was in the main event of the first wrestling show at the Superdome? I read that in a bio on him from some old non-WON newsletter that I can't remember now and mentioned it as a point for Murdoch a year or 2 ago.

[Dylan Waco]

Technically semi-main under Watts getting a title shot against Funk, though the match with Kox was the heavily promoted feud coming into the show

[goc]

Ok, just wanted to make sure. I read the discussions but I don't really have strong feelings about the WON HOF either way. I do remember the bio putting over the fact that the feud with Murdoch and Cox is what made the first Superdome show a success. (I think Murdoch's first big babyface turn, at least in that area)

[shoe]

Anyone have any idea how many ballots Dave usually gets back?

[soup23]

Last year, around 300 people voted in the Modern US/Canada category given the 60% threshold and the people that got in.

[kjh]

Here's a breakdown of the number of voters in each category over the last six years:

 

2013 U.S. and Canada modern 353 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 215 voters, Japan 103 voters, Mexico 93 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 143 voters, Europe 123 voters.

 

2012 U.S. and Canada modern 256 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 185 voters, Japan 98 voters, Mexico 78 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 105 voters, Europe 116 voters.

 

2011 U.S. and Canada modern 228 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 156 voters, Japan 116 voters, Mexico 118 voters, Pacific Islands, Australia, New Zealand & Puerto Rico 111 voters, Europe 71 voters.

 

2010 U.S. and Canada modern 181 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 135 voters, Japan 115 voters, Mexico 75 voters, Europe 63 voters.

 

2009 U.S. and Canada modern 201 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 98 voters, Japan 98 voters, Mexico 75 voters, Europe 53 voters.

 

2008 U.S. and Canada modern 245 voters, U.S. and Canada historical 156 voters, Japan 81 voters, Mexico 123 voters.

 

There's some interesting patterns here. You can see Mexico's electorate peaking in 2008 when Konnan was inducted and Japan's electorate peaking in 2010/2011 when Dr Death Steve Williams was on the ballot. The voter pool seemed to decline from 2008-2010 (maybe due to non-response or voters passing away), but has increased substantially since then, especially last year. Given non-response and some voters not voting in the U.S. and Canada modern category Dave must have sent well over 400 ballots last year.

[Cox]

 

 

 

Nice job, Chris. It looks like I won't need to be tracking these after all, since you had every ballot that I had, plus others, and can probably obtain more anonymous ballots than I could, so I'll drop out of the ballot collection and wish you well with this.

 

 

Someone suggested the project to me on Twitter. I started hunting ballots. Half-way through I came across your post and I felt bad because it seemed like I just swooped in unannounced and stole your thunder! I did want to apologize for that because that wasn't my intention. It was really just two people doing the same thing at the same time.

 

Glad you confirmed that I haven't missed any ballots (yet) that you saw. I really had no clue if I missed any.

 

No worries - I'm just glad somebody is doing the project. I think it's a worthwhile idea for sure. I do think that the results will be skewed a bit since there are more likely to be reporter and historian ballots made public than wrestler ballots, but I was always curious to see how good of an indicator the ballots made public are to who will be inducted. Thank you for doing this!

[JerryvonKramer]

Did Don Owen run Seattle?

[KrisZ]

Nope....Dean Silverstone then Dutch Savage ran the town using Owen's talent

[kjh]

St. Louis attendances for shows Murdoch was in one of the main events:

 

Feb. 16, 1973 – Kiel (att. 6463)

*Missouri Champion Terry Funk beat Jerry Brisco

*The Invader double DQ Pat O’Connor

April 27, 1973 – Kiel (att. 10,387)

*Missouri Champion Gene Kiniski beat Harley Race, who was DQ by special referee Joe Louis

*Bruno Sammartino beat The Invader inside the 7-foot high chain link fence. Invader unmasked to be Dick Murdoch.

Sept. 13, 1974 – Kiel (att. 7440)

*Missouri Champion Dory Funk Jr. beat Dick Murdoch

*Johnny Valentine beat Big Bill Miller in a Texas Death Match

Nov. 7, 1975 – Kiel (att. 4233)

*Dick Murdoch double DQ Bruno Sammartino

*Missouri Champion Harley Race beat Red Bastien

Jan. 16, 1976 – Kiel (att. 4877)

*Bruno Sammartino beat Dick Murdoch in a “no DQ” match

March 12, 1976 – Kiel (att. 9608)

*Missouri Champion Harley Race beat Lord Alfred Hayes

*Dick the Bruiser won a Wrestle Royal outlasting in order out Frank Valois, Allen Klein, Ronnie Etchison, Pat O’Connor, Ox Baker, Tank Patton, Andre the Giant and Moose Cholak together, Rufus R. Jones, Killer Karl Krupp, Ray Candy, Black Jack Lanza and Dick Murdoch

Jan. 27, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6140)

*Rocky Johnson beat Dick Murdoch

*Ric Flair beat Dory Funk Jr.

March 3, 1978 – Kiel (att. 5565)

*Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch double DQ Dick the Bruiser

*Ric Flair beat Pat O’Connor

March 17, 1978 – Kiel (att. 8528)

*Andre the Giant won a 17-man Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Black Jack Lanza, Ox Baker, Jack Kruger, Bobby Jaggers, Doug Somers, Evan Johnson, David Von Erich, Buddy Wolfe, Kevin Sullivan, Ric Flair, Pat O’Connor, Dick the Bruiser, Dick Murdoch and Rocky Johnson together, Bulldog Bob Brown and Alexi Smirnoff

*Terry Funk beat Black Jack Lanza

May 19, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6795)

*Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch beat Jack Brisco. Special referee, Pat O’Connor.

June 16, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6586)

*NWA Champion Harley Race beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls

July 14, 1978 – Kiel (att. 6728)

*Dick the Bruiser won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick Murdoch

*Jack Brisco beat Jim Valiant

Feb. 2, 1979 – Kiel (att. 10,800 sellout)

*Ric Flair and Dick Murdoch won an “all in” team match from Andre the Giant and Rocky Johnson when Flair beat Johnson. Murdoch was a sub for King Kong Brody, whose flight was grounded by snow in Dallas.

*Andre the Giant won a Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Pierre Bonnett, Hartford Love, David Von Erich, Mike Bowyer, Tom Andrews, Randy Alls, Bryan St. John, Dick the Bruiser, Siegfried Stanke, Bobo Brazil, Ric Flair, Pat O’Connor and Dick Murdoch together, Bulldog Bob Brown and Bob Sweetan.

March 9, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6540)

*Andre the Giant beat Dick Murdoch via DQ

April 6, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7564)

*Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch no contest Dick the Bruiser. After each man won one fall, both were DQ in the deciding fall.

May 18, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7985)

*Dick the Bruiser won the Missouri State Championship from Dick Murdoch inside the chain-link fence after Murdoch got into a scuffle with special referee Pat O’Connor

July 13, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6486)

*Dick Murdoch won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick the Bruiser 2/3 falls. Receiving two piledrivers on the floor before losing the second fall, Bruiser injured his shoulder and could not continue in the third fall.

*King Kong Brody beat Ted DiBiase

Aug. 10, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7995)

*NWA Champion Harley Race beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls. Special referee, Verne Gagne.

Sept. 14, 1979 – Kiel (att. 11,051 sellout)

*King Kong Brody won a Wrestle Royal outlasting in order out Kevin Von Erich, Steve Hall, Bob Sweetan, Dick Murdoch, Andre the Giant, The Turk, Frank Hill, Ron Starr, Dory Funk Jr., Lord Alfred Hayes, Bulldog Bob Brown, George Wells, David Von Erich, Roger Kirby and Bobby Duncum

*Andre the Giant beat King Kong Brody via DQ

Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch draw Dory Funk Jr.

Oct. 19, 1979 – Kiel (att. 5894)

*Missouri Champion Dick Murdoch no contest Dory Funk Jr. After man won one fall, both were counted out outside the ring in the third fall.

Nov. 2, 1979 – Kiel (att. 7844)

*Kevin Von Erich won the Missouri State Championship by beating Dick Murdoch

*Gene Kiniski beat Bulldog Bob Brown

Dec. 7, 1979 – Kiel (att. 6790)

*David and Kevin Von Erich won from NWA Champion Harley Race and Dick Murdoch. 1-Murdoch beat Kevin. 2-David beat Murdoch. 3-David beat Race.

Jan. 25, 1980 – Kiel (att. 11,053 sellout)

*King Kong Brody and Dick Murdoch won from Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser when Murdoch beat Bruiser

*Missouri Champion Kevin Von Erich beat Jack Brisco

*Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser were co-winners of a Wrestle Royal as they agreed to split the purse. In order out were Billy Howard, Tommy Sharp, Kerry Brown, Ron McFarlane, Dick Murdoch, Sailor Art Thomas, Eddie Gilbert, Ed Wiskoski, Jack Brisco, Pat O’Connor, David Von Erich, Takachiho, Bulldog Bob Brown and Lord Alfred Hayes.

Feb. 8, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6465)

*Missouri Champion Kevin Von Erich beat Dick Murdoch 2/3 falls; Murdoch won the first fall, the second fall won by Kevin via DQ, and Kevin won the final fall

*King Kong Brody double DQ David Von Erich

May 16, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6890)

*Missouri Champion Ken Patera beat Kevin Von Erich 2/3 falls

*King Kong Brody and Dick Murdoch ruled a draw after Brody refused to accept victory for Murdoch being counted out outside the ring

Saturday, July 12, 1980 – Kiel (att. 6490)

*David Von Erich beat Ric Flair

*Dick the Bruiser and Dick Murdoch were both counted out outside the ring

Sept. 12, 1980 – Kiel (att. 10,799 – missed sellout by less than one hundred tickets)

*Dick the Bruiser beat Dick Murdoch inside the chain-link fence. Sam Muchnick had stated that it was the last time he would book Bruiser versus Murdoch.

*Ric Flair beat Ted DiBiase

Dec. 5, 1980 – Kiel (att. 7680)

*Ted DiBiase won a Wrestle Royal by outlasting in order out Billy Starr, Akio Sato, Takachiho, Kerry Brown, Bob Sweetan, Jesse Barr, Rufus R. Jones, Mike George, Buzz Tyler, Pat O’Connor, Dick Murdoch, Kevin Von Erich, Dick the Bruiser and King Kong Brody together, and Bulldog Bob Brown.

*Ken Patera and Dick the Bruiser won a handicap match from NWA Champion Harley Race. 1-Race beat Bruiser on DQ. 2-Patera beat Race.

Jan. 23, 1981 – Kiel (att. 11,081 sellout)

*Andre the Giant and Bruce Reed agreed to share the victory in a Wrestle Royal as they outlasted in order out Big John Studd, Billy Starr, Jerry Roberts, Pat Kelly, Pat O’Connor, Terry Taylor, Ox Baker, Ric Flair, Buzz Tyler, Mike Kelly and Dick the Bruiser together, Spike Huber and Bulldog Bob Brown.

*King Kong Brody and Andre the Giant won from Ric Flair and Dick Murdoch when Brody beat Murdoch

March 6, 1981 – Kiel (att. 6976)

*Missouri Champion Ted DiBiase beat Big John Studd

*Dick Murdoch beat King Kong Brody, who was counted out outside the ring

April 3, 1981 – Kiel (att. 4983)

*Ric Flair beat David Von Erich

*Rufus R. Jones beat Dick Murdoch on DQ

Jan. 22, 1982 – Kiel (att. 8450)

*Harley Race beat David Von Erich

*Kerry Von Erich beat Dick Murdoch by DQ

Feb. 19, 1982 – Kiel (att. 11,093 sellout)

*Dick the Bruiser won an 18-man Wrestle Royal, outlasting in order out Bob Brown, Ricky Romero, Greg Valentine, Von Raschke, Gene Lewis, Spike Huber and Roger Kirby together, Dick Murdoch, Bobo Brazil, Jerry Brown, Kerry Von Erich, Terry Funk, Jerry Valiant, Dewey Robertson, Andre the Giant and Crusher Blackwell together, and Ken Patera.

*Andre the Giant and Terry Funk (sub for Dusty Rhodes) was ruled a draw against Harley Race and Crusher Blackwell when both teams were DQ

May 14, 1982 – Kiel (att. 10,119)

*Andre the Giant and Dick the Bruiser won from Dick Murdoch and Crusher Blackwell. 1-Murdoch beat Bruiser. 2-Andre beat Blackwell via DQ. 3-Bruiser beat Murdoch.

Conclusion: Murdoch seemed to be a solid (outside of the disappointing houses with Bruno in the winter of '75/'76) but generally unspectacular draw in St. Louis. He only drew sellouts as part of star studded Battle Royales or tag team matches where he was clearly not the key person drawing the house. His best crowd was a near sellout of the Kiel Auditorium for the cage match blowoff to his feud with Dick The Bruiser.

[JerryvonKramer]

Incidentally those Bruno houses are generally brought up as a knock against Bruno that he wasn't a draw outside of the North East (eg by people like Matysik)