Kiyoshi Tamura

[ohtani's jacket]

This could change at the drop of a hat, but I'd go Fujiwara, Han and Tamura.

 

Fujiwara had the longest run (from '84-94) and had great shoot style matches in three different promotions (UWF, UWF II and PWFG.) Tamura was by far the most athletic of the three, but held back in UWF-i the same way Sano was. Han, on the other hand, was able to express himself freely. As I hinted to before, he had less to prove and wrestled with the same sort of sagely tongue-in-cheek style that you'd expect from a master schooling young apprentices. He was good and he knew it whereas Tamura was hell bent on proving the world wrong.

[El-P]

So yeah, I was a shoot-style fan, and Tamura was the apex of the style. For that reason only, and for years of being awesome and pushing his style to the extreme, he'd be my #4 or 5.

[JerryvonKramer]

After Chad went so high with him, I watched a bunch of Tamura tonight to see if my dial had shifted at all on shoot style.

 

One observation- crowds were big and presentation seems real video gamey, especially the music which sounds lifted directly from the Capcom vaults (see Vader clip especially). I'm pretty sure I heard Ryu's theme at one point.

 

I watched him:

 

Vs. Takada

Vs. Vader

Vs. Anjoh

Vs. Yamazaki

 

Yamazaki bout seemed noticeably better and more engaging than the others to me, but what the hell do I know?

 

Has the dial moved? Not really. For me it's all way too tentative, tentative, feeling out, feeling out, strike!

 

The style is not boring nor indeed completely inaccessible, but it remains the case that it does very little for me.

[Tim Cooke]

His best matches were in RINGS

 

Can't think of an outstanding Tamura UWFI match except for the June 94 Vader match

[GOTNW]

I think there are shoot styles matches Parv could love but I don't think Tamura will do the trick. I'd be very surprised if you didn't think Masakatsu Funaki vs Tatsuo Nakano from 7/24/1989 was a great match. It has terrific heat, clearly defined roles and uses shoot style as a medium for a great brawl more than it is a shoot style match. I think it will be extremely accessible even for you and all the backstory you need is that the short chubby guy is a huge underdog. I don't expect you to ever love shoot style as a whole but that match really is something special and the submissions are used more as epic nearfalls than they are as a means of struggle.

[elliott]

His best matches were in RINGS

 

Can't think of an outstanding Tamura UWFI match except for the June 94 Vader match

 

 

 

I agree his absolute best matches were in RINGS but in terms of singles matches from UWFi....

 

vs Kakihara 91

vs Anjoh 91

vs Anjoh 92

vs Yamazaki 92

vs Takada 93

vs Sano 93

vs Kakihara 94

vs Vader 94

vs Albright 94

vs Yamazaki 95

 

all stand out to me as outstanding. I dunno what to do with the Sakuraba series as it is full of outstanding moments even though there isn't an absolute blow away MATCH.

 

There are some tag matches too worth watching for sure. Again, nothing on the level of the Han, Yamamoto, etc matches. But there is definitely some really great stuff in UWFi.

[elliott]

One observation- crowds were big and presentation seems real video gamey, especially the music which sounds lifted directly from the Capcom vaults (see Vader clip especially). I'm pretty sure I heard Ryu's theme at one point.

 

 

Wasn't there a Street Fighter character based on Volk Han? Did I hallucinate that (very possible).

[elliott]

Also Parv, did you not like the Vader match???

[pol]

I suspect a lot of the music you're hearing is overdubs for the comm tape releases. It is awesome though.

 

The presentation of RINGS was even more fighting gamey, right down to the "Vs." screens with Tekken-esque announcer before each fight.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also Parv, did you not like the Vader match???

Not especially. I have Flair vs. Vader, one of the few matches ever to make me cry at about ***1/2 and I thought the Tamura match had less drama and excitement than that. It's very had to get into all the psyche-out stuff. In any other wrestling match that is down time, in these shoot matches it is actually about 50% of the body of the match. Those speculative kicks to Vader's leg, for example, is that meant to be offense that has connected or offense that is being deflected? I couldn't really tell. And then the match is over. That's my experience with a lot of this stuff. Match spends a long time in feeling out and then as soon as it gets going, it's over. I get what they are going for, but it's a form of storytelling that fails to elicit much interest from me. I've seen a fair few of the RINGS matches, including those vs. Volk Han. I will say that the strikes are more satisfactory in that setting and the pace is faster, but I'd still have the same general observation. It's a game of waiting for the moment to hit the right precision strike or lock on the right submission finish.

 

PS. I don't know if you listened to the WTBBP special where we do our GWE lists, but you should for the tribute promo Chad cuts on you at one point.

[pol]

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story. I guess a general ramping up of drama/intensity would be as close as it gets to that. I feel the same way about lucha to a lesser extent.

[concrete1992]

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story. I guess a general ramping up of drama/intensity would be as close as it gets to that. I feel the same way about lucha to a lesser extent.

Shoot style sort of cuts out the pretense of something I enjoy in wrestling: Watching strategies tried, failed, and adapted to.

[Childs]

How does it cut that out?

[concrete1992]

How does it cut that out?

A more traditional match can muddy that idea with other narratives at play while I feel shoot style seems to cut the fat and gets right to two combatants trying to implement strategies.

[fxnj]

I think shoot style is a lot easier to appreciate if you have experience with jiu-jitsu or a similar form of grappling. Traditional style is presented as 90% strength and conditioning with guys powering through holds and trading finishers. Shoot grappling and, by extension, shoot style is 90% technique, so in that respect it's the most built around strategy of all styles. It may not be something an 8 year old would get but, the strategy element consumes the whole match with things like positioning, weight distribution, prediction, etc. I'm not saying you need to go join an MMA gym to get shoot style but just watching something like a Gracie Breakdown or basic BJJ tutorial on YouTube could go a long way in showing how there's far more to shoot style than lucha style flashiness.

[Loss]

Fujiwara-Takada from the UWF on 10/25/90 more closely resembles the human game of chess than any match I can recall seeing. I'm not ready to agree with that point.

[andrew79]

Fujiwara-Takada from the UWF on 10/25/90 more closely resembles the human game of chess than any match I can recall seeing.

Is that online anywhere?

[Microstatistics]

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story.

Disagree with this because a lot of the shootstyle matches I have seen have clear narratives. Maybe the biggest example is the Tamura/Han trilogy. The roles of each and the story of each match are very clearly defined. Not only that, there is an overarching story as well because we get to see how their characters and approaches change/evolve across the three matches and each match builds off the previous. It is basically the Flair vs. Steamboat of shootstyle except maybe on an even higher level. Also mat wizard vs. striker, david vs. goliath and young lion vs. veteran/ace type matches and their variations are pretty common in shootstyle.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't really consider shoot style a form of wrestling that emphasises narrative. I'm more looking for interesting/aesthetically pleasing work than a story.

Disagree with this because a lot of the shootstyle matches I have seen have clear narratives. Maybe the biggest example is the Tamura/Han trilogy. The roles of each and the story of each match are very clearly defined. Not only that, there is an overarching story as well because we get to see how their characters and approaches change/evolve across the three matches and each match builds off the previous. It is basically the Flair vs. Steamboat of shootstyle except maybe on an even higher level. Also mat wizard vs. striker, david vs. goliath and young lion vs. veteran/ace type matches and their variations are pretty common in shootstyle.

 

Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

 

So many of the great feuds I can think of are about huge and clashing ideologies.

 

The guy who parties and gets all the chicks vs. the dedicated family man (Flair vs. Steamer)

The rebel vs. the bastion of tradition (Tenryu vs. Jumbo)

The trash-talking employee vs. the authoritarian boss (Austin vs. McMahon)

 

In what ways would you say the narrative arch of Tamura vs. Han is on an "even higher level" than any of those?

 

Your answer here might help many of us here who struggle to understand or get into shoot style.

[Microstatistics]

In terms of an ideology, I would say Tamura vs. Han is the epitome of student vs. master. I put spoilers tags because I kind of reveal the finish of each match in the analysis.

 

9/25/1996

 

 

Here Tamura is a definite underdog and wrestles with a ton of desperation and urgency against the top fighter in RINGS. Han doesn't take him lightly but isn't too concerned for the majority of the bout. Tamura's resilience does frustrate him at the end though but he eventually manages to school him relatively comfortably. Admirable effort but the student has a long way to go.

 

 

1/22/1997

 

 

Here Tamura has way more confidence than before and is a bigger threat. He has Han in trouble at various points in the match, Han is visibly struggling at times. But Tamura is still kind of brash and Han takes advantage of his over aggressive approach to submit him. The student challenged the master but still has things to learn.

 

 

9/26/1997

 

 

Here Tamura has the confidence of the previous match with new found maturity and a more cerebral approach. Han realizes this and is almost desperate in his attempts to end the match as quickly as possible. But this time Tamura is able to take everything Han throws at him and beats him.The student has surpassed the master.

 

[GOTNW]

Han vs. Tamura has absolutely nothing to do with student vs. master. Pretty sure Tamura debuted before Volk Han unless there was a super underground russian wrestling fed in the 80s. Han was above Tamura in the pecking order so you could build your narrative on that. I don't think the first two matches have much narrative if any at all.

[Loss]

 

Fujiwara-Takada from the UWF on 10/25/90 more closely resembles the human game of chess than any match I can recall seeing.

Is that online anywhere?

 

 

It's not.

[Microstatistics]

Han vs. Tamura has absolutely nothing to do with student vs. master. Pretty sure Tamura debuted before Volk Han unless there was a super underground russian wrestling fed in the 80s. Han was above Tamura in the pecking order so you could build your narrative on that. I don't think the first two matches have much narrative if any at all.

That doesn't mean Han wasn't far more skilled and dangerous than Tamura (and basically everyone in RINGS) during their first match. His debut is irrelevant. The dude was an established beast from his first match onwards and that is why the story of the trilogy is Tamura trying to prove he was on Han's level and Han trying to put him in his place.

[Childs]

I don't think it's exactly master vs. a student, though. It's more the most skilled guy in the promotion dealing with the new stud coming in from another league. I see what you're saying, because Han definitely felt like the older, more established worker in the pairing. But teacher vs. student, to me, implies a more personal relationship than those two had.

[Microstatistics]

Yeah that's true I didn't mean it in a protege trying to prove himself kind of sense even though it has the same elements . Not sure how you would describe it exactly.

 

 

But my main point is that shootstyle is a great medium for storytelling, just like the traditional style and I would encourage more people to explore it.