Chris Hero

[Loss]

My point is that it shouldn't matter what he looks like. Not even a little. Why isn't just being good at what he does in the ring enough? If you want to slag on something, slag on his match quality or promo skills, not his body. And if the added weight isn't adversely effecting his performances, I just don't understand why anyone cares. I sometimes wonder if the weight gain is intended to be some kind of performance art that's intended to be a mirror back on the very people who have a problem with it.

 

As for his health, I don't really worry about the conditioning of a guy who can work long matches in a hard style at a high level.

[Badlittlekitten]

You're right in the sense that WWE may have kept him had he had a ripped physique. I'd also wager they'd have kept him if he wasn't an uncharismatic drip, gut and all. You only have to look at the guys they're willing to push these days to see that ring work and playing your role effectively are more important than ever. And that's great cos in terms of shapes and sizes the rosters more diverse than its been in a long time.

 

Is it fair that some guys have to work harder to overcome their look? Well no, it should be talent and presence that shines through. (Although I'm struggling to think of the last roided lug they pushed purely for appearance).

 

But that's what it comes down to for me. I don't think Hero is particularly good in ring or at playing a role. In NXT he had a 'knockout' bruiser gimmick when his striking looked sloppy and sluggish. It was a bit of a jumble and didn't really fit. If 'internet dork' was his gimmick and he played a smart, sneaky heel that does lousy WOS cosplays it might have worked. If he clicked he'd be on tv right now.

[Matt D]

He needs an Anchor Tattoo on his arm. That'd help.

[Loss]

Your critiques were focused on his work, which is appreciated.

[El-P]

I sometimes wonder if the weight gain is intended to be some kind of performance art that's intended to be a mirror back on the very people who have a problem with it.

 

A reverse BodyDonnas gimmick ? That's way too meta, even for 2015.

[BillThompson]

You're right in the sense that WWE may have kept him had he had a ripped physique. I'd also wager they'd have kept him if he wasn't an uncharismatic drip, gut and all.

 

 

You keep bringing this up, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Hero has been a big name on the indies and over everywhere he goes because of how charismatic he is. It helps that his bell to bell ring work is also exceptional, but I've seen Hero take a dead crowd and bring them to the point that they're are frothing at the bit without him having to do one single wrestling move. That's charisma.

[Timbo Slice]

To Bill's point, they had him rile up a dead crowd basically by himself before his match with Thatcher at the WWNLive Supershow and it absolutely made that show. He made me feel like it was worth the money I paid to see that show BY HIMSELF. That was also the night where he had his awesome "I Work Hard For This Body" shirt, so that should tell you how much he cares about what you think of his body.

 

This is more stemming that people are pissed he didn't work harder to get into "WWE" shape so that he could be working NXT, I'm pretty sure. There's an air of disappointment there. Which is understandable. There's also the idea that a guy should work like he looks, and then people get surprised and think it's awesome when Owens is as agile as he is, or Cage, or Vader, etc. So I'm not buying this idea that because he looks a certain way he should work a certain way. He works how he works, and he's a compelling worker, which is the point of the project.

 

Now I feel like putting Hero #1 just to spite you all.

[Loss]

The anger should not be directed toward Hero if that's true. It should be directed at Vince and/or HHH and/or fans who prop up that type of value system. He didn't quit, he was released.

[funkdoc]

This thread is really interesting because it shows that the whole idea of WWE being so overly fixated on physical appearance isn't something that stems entirely from their own biases. Body shaming of any kind sucks, even when the victim of it is a pro wrestler. It's hypocritical to get on WWE's case about never giving full backing to Daniel Bryan while making disparaging comments about Hero's appearance. The fact that people care so much about someone looking like they are tough while at the same time talking about wrestling with zero pretenses that it's real is a contradiction that makes no sense. Stan Lane's toupee in Smoky Mountain Wrestling is a far more egregious and distracting thing to undermine someone who is supposed to be taken seriously than any wrestler being too short, skinny, fat or whatever else. Fans caring so much about body type is the same kind of thing that leads to Missy Hyatt's body dysmorphia and Eddy Guerrero's death. You'd think people would learn to let go of that when Chris Benoit killed his son in part because his brain was fried from years of drug abuse because simply being good at his craft wasn't enough for wrestling fans or decision makers. I'm sick of this defeatist idea that it's what Vince wants out of wrestling and nothing can change that. That may be the case, but just accepting it and then gleefully performing your own role in such a destructive system is just as bad.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to get on a soapbox here, but it just sort of happened.

 

fair points and something that needed to be said. i personally have no issue with hero, just stating where others might be coming from. still, though, probably should have posted a bit differently!

 

matt hardy is an awfully similar case in a lot of ways, as i think about it. except he had that string of embarrassing public meltdowns that surely brought a lot more scrutiny toward him than anything hero's ever done.

 

EDIT: re: health issues, that is a real problem with athletic guys who are huge. just look up the life expectancy of NFL offensive linemen or sumo wrestlers sometime. it's the effect of injuries after your athletic career is over that seem to be the main issue, as you can't exercise like you used to. and of course there's the risk of heart problems etc. that come with that territory. for an example a bit closer to home, think of shinya hashimoto - his weight sure didn't slow him down in the ring, but high blood pressure was apparently a major part of what killed him.

 

granted, hero's not at that point now...but it is something to keep in mind.

 

sidenote - while checking hashimoto info, i noticed that he was in a relationship with kodo fuyuki's widow. holy crap that had to have been a shitty few years of her life there with both of them dying

[MJH]

There's a difference between Hero "not looking like a star" because of his appearance, and not looking like a star because of how he carries himself. Dusty carried himself like a star and was in worse shape. Harley had a gut but you'd walk in fear of the guy. Ditto Murdoch. Ditto Aja Kong or Dump or Bull for the women. Hero doesn't have any of that whenever I've seen him. He'd "look" just as amateurish with a 32" waistline.

 

(FTR since he was brought up, I think what worked against Bryan most in the eyes of Vince/co not seeing him as a star is the same thing... he's too laid-back, shy, quiet, whatever to carry himself as one. Whilst Punk also always had mic skills Bryan didn't, and an important extra 3" of height, even in the days of his most egregiously indy long shorts appearance, he always saw himself, and carried himself, like a star).

[El-P]

sidenote - while checking hashimoto info, i noticed that he was in a relationship with kodo fuyuki's widow. holy crap that had to have been a shitty few years of her life there with both of them dying

 

Yep. It was such a bizarre situation. And if you've never seen Hashimoto vs Kanemura from Fuyuki's tribute show, it's the most surreal thing ever in pro-wrestling. Things always were more real in Japan, but this takes the cake.

[Timbo Slice]

There's a difference between Hero "not looking like a star" because of his appearance, and not looking like a star because of how he carries himself. Dusty carried himself like a star and was in worse shape. Harley had a gut but you'd walk in fear of the guy. Ditto Murdoch. Ditto Aja Kong or Dump or Bull for the women. Hero doesn't have any of that whenever I've seen him. He'd "look" just as amateurish with a 32" waistline.

 

(FTR since he was brought up, I think what worked against Bryan most in the eyes of Vince/co not seeing him as a star is the same thing... he's too laid-back, shy, quiet, whatever to carry himself as one. Whilst Punk also always had mic skills Bryan didn't, and an important extra 3" of height, even in the days of his most egregiously indy long shorts appearance, he always saw himself, and carried himself, like a star).

See, that's totally subjective and goes back to my point about expectations for how guys work. People see how Hero works and wonder how a guy looking like that works like he did, while as with the guys you mentioned, the look amplified what they did because it was more inherent to their character. I don't get the double standard here. You can't have one and say it doesn't work the other way.

 

Hero has done plenty to make himself standout with that physique. It doesn't matter that he looks that way. The guys you mentioned had personalities that made you fear them. It wasn't their look that did it. You want an example of Hero looking like a badass with that physique? Check out him taking a shlub like Reed Bentley and carrying him to a damn good match because of how he carried himself. It was one of his first matches post-WWE and it looked like he had something to prove, and he did it in spades

 

[Goodear]

Watching Hero versus Bentley I am not seeing a really good argument that he is projecting a clear picture of who he is and what he is trying to accomplish and it goes beyond his waistline. Historically speaking, I have seen the striking style succeed in one of two ways, either as a rough and tumble fight-fight-fight (Hansen or Harper) or as a precision surgical exercise (Shibata). Hero comes off like he is trying to be both at the same time much like CM Punk and like Punk, it comes off sloppy rather than pulling the best traits of either style. The rolling elbows and boots seem almost like a crutch here as Chris just goes back to them time and time again as both transitional and control tools rather than let them breathe so they have meaning. Hero can be a multi-tool worker but he's deliberately limited himself to striking with a touch of submission work. Sometimes that works with guys like Finlay and Regal, but Hero isn't tight enough to pull it off. From a construction standpoint, the kip up to answer a ten count is a sure way to wipe out 15 minutes worth of work and seemed completely opposed to the rest of his performance as a no nonsense fighter. Also, there seems to be no really difference in execution from minute one to minute twenty as the forearms seem to come with the same amount of energy and emotion. There is no sense of catharsis or release. To be fair, the limb selling was okay for Hero but it didn't really restrict him in any way which knocks off a point on the Chris Masters Limb-Selling Scale That I Just Made Up TM (Patent Pending) and nothing looked poorly executed.

 

I think its funny you chose this match to say Hero's look isn't so bad when he's facing Bentley since Reed has an abysmal look and Hero better damn well be able to project something against him but it comes off that he is almost working too even against a guy with Pizza Brigade shirt.

[Parties]

Two questions after the conversation that has emerged here:

 

1) Has Hero's physique kept him from being a top 100 worker? (No. Unless you think that six-pack abs would have gotten him onto WWE's main roster and led to a Danielson/Cesaro-level career. Possible, but totally hypothetical.)

2) Based on what he's achieved, is he a top 100 worker? (No.)

 

That's not to take anything away from him. He's today one of the top guys on the indies. But being the fourth best worker in Evolve right now isn't getting you on my list.

[Vittero]

2) Based on what he's achieved, is he a top 100 worker? (No.)

 

 

I think Hero lives or dies as a candidate based on the sheer quantity of good matches he's had from 2000-now rather than having one or two super matches that you can point to and say "He was in the best match ever." More than that I think he's kind of the test case of whether or not a match matters more if it's in WWE than a gym in front of 30 people as there's a fair argument that if you're willing to dig into CZW/IWA/Chikara & the like that you can form pretty even resumes for Danielson/Hero with the big exception being that Danielson had the big WWE matches and Hero had pretty much nothing in NXT as the highest levels of exposure. Hero also still has high level output in PWG, Evolve, Beyond and random indies now while Danielson is done so his resume is growing on a much smaller stage. To be fair, that argument's a lot easier to make if Kings of Wrestling matches are included but I think it's possible even without them (of course I'm biased as while I'm coming around on early Danielson there's a lot of his stuff that just doesn't hit the mark for me). I didn't love the Bentley match but Hero had a really good match against Kongo Kong in IWA earlier this year that's worth checking out as he plays the old ace coming back to try taking down the monster champion.

 

 

Hero can be a multi-tool worker but he's deliberately limited himself to striking with a touch of submission work.

 

I'd say this is probably his biggest issue. I think he's improved on making the strikes work but there was a run (PWG especially but also some of his ROH stuff) that was just terrible in this regard. Completely abandoning the matwork side of his character that brought him to the level he was at...not a great period for him.

 

Maybe it's just because I'm used to fat 2001-2002 Hero but the body issues don't really factor in. He's definitely in the top 100 although nailing down a spot is tough as he's still active and who knows what'll happen between now and the deadline.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I prefer early, baby-faced and baby-fat lucha armdrags and Euro chain wrestling Hero to later Japanese strong style tribute act Hero. The former is a small-time act, but it's an endearing one and could produce fun matches. The latter is pretty grating. Part of the problem is that, despite his size, Hero just doesn't look like an intimidating guy, so him playing this badass just strikes an odd chord. Then there's the constant thigh slapping. Not every strike (and there are plenty of them) needs to make a slapping sound, and elbows certainly shouldn't. Still, he's a charismatic guy, who never seems to have a problem getting fans into his matches. No chance of making my list.

[InYourCase]

Don't think I'll be the high vote on Hero as I know at least one person has him higher than me, but he's worked his way into my Top 40 and will probably finish even better than that. I think his IWA-MS work holds up nicely, I love his first ROH and PWG runs, his stuff in EVOLVE this year has been excellent, and his recent NOAH work has been amazing to watch. He's great a little things, or making moments in matches stick out. The elbows can get repetitive, I get that. It doesn't bother me, but if you don't like that, then I can see why Hero wouldn't finish on your list. However, the guy is great. He's worked a variety of styles successfully in a variety of enviornments, which helps his case a lot for me.

[Dylan Waco]

Very torn on him, as I think at worst he's one of the absolute dirt worst offenders of indie excess. Even in his great matches last year he had a tendency to build everything to a head drop no sell spot which is irking and annoying as all hell. I also was not a fan of the Kings of Wrestling as a team, and genuinely think that was lost time for him.

 

On the other hand he's had a lot of matches that I would rate from very good to great going back over a decade. I'm not sure Hero at his peak was ever as good as say Samoa Joe at his peak, but he has far fewer lost years, and a wider range of skills. At this best Hero is a great grappler, great brawler, and has legitimately excellent highspots. Seeing him live this year he has a true presence that puts him a level above most of the other talented indie stars. He's an athletic freak, almost Buddy Rosesque really, but I think sometimes people miss the fact that on top of having cool varied offense, and the ability to do impressive stuff physically, he can sell well and pace his matches better than most....when he's at his best.

 

I also think he's been effective playing a variety of characters over the years. I recently went back and watched some of that CZW/ROH feud and he really was great during it, right there with Joe and Necro, but if anything with an even more impressive character role in the angle.

 

I"m tempted to go back and watch some the IWA-MS stuff before this is over with. I'm likely to be more forgiving of excess during that period as it was guys trying to get noticed, and doing things completely outside of the box for period. Even absent doing that I'll still consider him. Most of the other great indie workers lack the volume, longevity, and relative consistency as a high end worker and that should count for something.

[concrete1992]

Currently in the midst of doing a 2005 indie wrestling watch across a variety of promotions and Hero is the person most benefiting right now. Sure, he isn't quite at the Samoa Joe level through Q1 but no one else really is. I'm watching every Hero match on this run and he's having matches of all shapes and sizes, willing to throw in some levity that never takes away from the match.

I don't know where I'll rank Hero yet but my gut says that this run likely will have me coming down to a different place as some others with his inconsistencies. As a night in and night out performer, no one is lifting matches up like Hero.

[Quentin]

Hero is someone in play for me for the top 10. That might sound insane on paper, but he’s a guy you can really look at his career and chart the growth for. Maybe he’s not immediately great like Ki or Bryan at implementing all his ideas, but a solid base is there, along with likable quality to him that even the best guys to emerge from that period didn’t always have (and then he flips that on it’s head and becomes a really strong heel). You could argue that he was overly ambitious early on but I would counter with I find it very impressive that a guy like Hero could work matches going 20, 30, 40, even 60+ minutes so early on and not only are they not terrible, most of them remain engaging the whole way through and a few of them are really great. 
 

Everyone knows about how good he is in 2016, arguably the best wrestler in the world from December 2013 to January 2017. But like Sam here, as I go through this IWA MS stuff, eventually planning on getting to CHIKARA and whatever else, yeah he’s not the guys I mentioned before, he’s not peak Joe, he’s not even peak Aries or peak Nigel, but what you see is a guy that did his damndest to make sure whatever he did on the card stood out, no matter what he got asked to do. And that applies even to his last WWE stint being relegated to NXT UK and making the most of that, still looking he could be a wrestler of the year level guy if he got the chances.

[Boss Rock]

Hero's currently a top 30 candidate or so for me. His 2016 run is obviously great, but it's interesting to see how good he was prior to becoming the knockout artist juggernaut. I still need to do a bit of a deeper dive on his early 2000's stuff, but based on his matches with Bryan, Kingston, and Regal, he was still awesome before he became the final boss of the indies.

[WingedEagle]

One of the standouts of this past decade that I never got.  I'll revisit him again at some point but I always saw a very good wrestler that wouldn't necessarily rise to even a bubble candidate in my book.  Those who like him like him do so such a passion that I feel he deserves further consideration but he's someone who has yet to click with me in the ring.

[El Dragon]

I've been trying to figure out why Hero doesn't click with me for a very long time, and during the watch party it finally hit for me: For the early part of his career he always felt like a guy more interested in doing Lucha sequences that looked cool then really trying to be an amazing pro wrestler overall. As time went on he added other influences (the notable Buddy Rose stage of his mid 2000's work), and eventually put it all together in the 2010s as a legitimately incredible performer that still left me cold. I used to think I just had anti-Hero bias still and that was the block. During the party I finally figured it out.

Chris Hero breaks wrestling. He is a legitimate 6 foot 4, bulky, incredible athletic worker who can pull off amazing looking strikes and throws at the drop of a hat. He is smart, clever, knows how to work a match like nobody's business, and he also destroys my sense of believability in a lot of his matches because he is all of those things and there is no way a tiny little guy like Fenix, a toothpick like Sabre Jr., and many other indy guys that he is working 50/50 with shouldn't get destroyed by him. He should be indy Brock Lesnar because his skillset basically demands it. But I also don't know how much to blame Hero on that because 50/50 stuff is exactly what his crowd wants to see. 

I always thought Hero would be a very hard guy to rank. Then I finally figured out why and I find it even harder to know how I'm going to rank him. But I know I am going to rank him. 

[Boss Rock]

1 hour ago, El Dragon said:

He is smart, clever, knows how to work a match like nobody's business, and he also destroys my sense of believability in a lot of his matches because he is all of those things and there is no way a tiny little guy like Fenix, a toothpick like Sabre Jr., and many other indy guys that he is working 50/50 with shouldn't get destroyed by him.

As much as I enjoyed the Sabre series, it was the Mercury Rising match I think where Sabre got blasted by several boots but didn't fall off the apron. That was a "huh?" moment for me.

[strobogo]

He shouldn't be indy Brock, but American WALTER. Fat Chris Hero knocking the shit out of everyone and sticking his gut in fans' faces >>>> all other versions of Hero combined