Ted DiBiase

[JerryvonKramer]

One cool thing to come out of this is that I just noticed the "music snobbery" link in your sig and was delighted to find it clicked through to RYM.

 

I use that site a lot, and will probably lose a few hours reading your stuff. I also love Paris 1919, so thumbs up

 

Back to Ted ...

[Jimmy Redman]

I love Paris 1919 so much as an historical event that I'd probably like an...album? named after it no matter what it sounded like.

 

But again we seem to have wandered from the point.

 

I'll talk about the matches soon once I finish watching stuff. Thanks all for clearing up the confusion.

[JerryvonKramer]

Try the title track!

 

Looking forward to see what you make of the Magnum matches. I have to say I was surprised that neither of them go much longer then ten mins, they feel longer.

[Jimmy Redman]

Ted vs Pat Patterson, WWF 19.6.79

 

I agree that Ted is surprisingly good as a plucky young babyface. He bumps well, and when he was younger looks really tall and lanky, exactly like a young boy looks at that stage. He already throws a nice punch too and has nice fire. I liked how active he kept the arm work when he was on offense, really drilling the arm with knee drops and never sitting in a hold. I liked this a lot, especially compared to other WWE matches of the period.

 

One thing I want to note, particularly for your benefit since I doubt you would have seen it, is that Babyface Ted looks exactly like Babyface Ted Jr. Like, exactly. You should watch the match/angle Ted Jr. had with Orton on Raw 19.10.09. All you need to know is that Ted is one of Orton's lackeys, he sneakily pinned Orton in a three-way the week before, and as punishment Orton orders Ted not to fight back in their match. I think it's a tremendous angle, and for one night Ted shows a crazy amount of emotion and fire. It went absolutely nowhere and they ended up turning Orton face instead, but as a one-off angle, I love it. Anyway that's just what Ted's fire reminds me of.

 

Ted vs JYD, Mid South 24.6.82

 

I have no idea of the wider context here, just watched this on YT randomly, but it seems they're both faces and friends and somehow Ted inadvertantly got himself booked in a LLT with Dog. It's more of an angle than a match, but I really like the angle. You can see the progression: before the match Ted talks about firstly, not knowing if he can beat JYD, and secondly, having to feed his family and the risk to his career here. So then in the match, they're all shaking hands and having a nice friendly babyface match at first, then JYD kicks out of the powerslam, then he blocks the figure four, and only then does Ted load up the glove and BAM. He didn't want to resort to that because JYD is his friend, but in the end he had to, because like he said, he couldn't beat JYD fair and square. I liked how it all made perfect sense like that.

 

Ted vs Magnum, Mid South 27.5.84 x 2

 

Taking both these matches together, they're both really good. The first is just a good, tight, snappy brawl, and the second one plays off the first with the cut opening up and gets a bit grittier, a bit more dramatic. I liked the first match having the sucker punch open (Ted sure likes using that spot) and the second has Magnum expecting it and he counters. I think Ted gives a great performance in the second match. It makes sense coming off the first one that he's desperate to beat him, and he comes off really determined, almost deranged. That little shake/scream he gives just after the cut opens is almost unsettling. I also loved him wrenching on the chinlock to get the blood to pour out. He was quite a fucker in this. On another note, I think it was in the first match that he took the gut punch coming off the top and sells it in the most preposterous way I've ever seen.

 

As an aside, I've never been impressed much with Magnum in the ring either, but I liked him a lot in these too. Great punches, great fire, a ten minute brawl is basically the perfect match for Mag. It's the best I've seen him look outside of the cage match.

 

Ted vs Flair, Mid South 6.11.85

 

This was an awesome angle. Awesome from everyone involved. Perfect way to turn Ted face.

 

Firstly I loved Flair casually kicking Ted to the floor and watching on during the angle. Like "Eh, these kids want to fight amongst themselves, fine by me." The whole Murdoch attack/Watts update part of it ruled.

 

I love how they sold the blood loss in this. Maybe it's on my brain since I gave blood yesterday, but blood loss isn't always sold well in wrestling. Like you can get lots of blood and make faces and get it worked over and what not, but you're not necessarily selling in your body language that you've lost a crazy amount of blood. Sometimes it does the opposite and guys get off on it and go on rampages covered in blood, which looks good, and the blood itself adds to the drama, but doesn't always get over the danger of bleeding (and the very real danger, since it's a real cut).

 

But here, I loved the way it was sold. Ted was semi OK in the beginning, but as the match went on and the bandage came off opening him up, he just got weaker and weaker. By the time he hit the powerslam he couldn't even complete the cover. Sometimes that spot comes off as convenient (like a guy will be fine enough to run and hit a move, but OH, back to selling now, can't cover!) but here it was done expertly and they really earned it. Ted didn't show much fire in this match, but I like that as a choice since he was just so weakened that he didn't have it in him to fire up. He was barely able to hold his body up and survive. Also because his face turn wasn't really complete until afterwards.

 

There's a great bump he takes at the end where Flair sends him over the rope and head first into the rail. That was nasty. As was the brainbuster on the concrete. Jesus. All in all just a super match and angle.

 

Ted vs Dick Murdoch, Mid South 31.12.85 & 1.86

 

Had to watch these after that. I like the spot where Murdoch jumps over the rail to get him, it was a good variation of the "heel gets chased around the ring, slides in and stomps the following face" spot. In fact all the best stuff in these matches happened outside the ring: Murdoch's really violent neck snaps on the rope, and his crazy chair shots too. In the Jan match in particular he looks like he's literally murdering Ted, smashing the edge of the chair right on the back of his neck. Ted is a babyface now and fires up accordingly. I'm not sure on the use of the loaded glove, I mean I'm willing to excuse it as either "babyface stooping for revenge" or "I established this as a heel now I'm a face so it's a face move", but it just seems weird to me that he still needs to cheat to win. Anyway, these are some more good, tight brawls.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Oh by the way, to me Exile On Main Street is amazingly better than Ziggy Stardust. Its not a slam, not many non live Rock and Roll albums are better than Exile. But if Ziggy is something that touches something in you that Exile doesn't, then of course you'll like it more and think it's better. Just like how Ted DiBiase touches Parv or how Jimmy Valiant ( and jazz with no rules) touch me.

 

 

 

I'll just leave that there. Have fun with it.

[Danish Dynamite]

What the hell happened in this thread?

 

Guess I'll throw myself under the same bus as Parv, just to show that someone else is there with him... With the exception of the Ziggy vs. Exile thing (I love Ziggy, but I really, really love Exile) and maybe the lucha stuff (couldn't stand lucha a couple of years ago... am getting into it slowly), I think I agree with Parv on pretty much everything in the thread.

[shoe]

Ted will do good on my ballot. He really is a versatile wrestler. On the Houston footage he's looked great doing a variety of stuff. He's had a lot of strong matches throughout his career. He could work singles or be just as effective in a tag team. One of the most underrated tag workers around. He's been part of really great teams especially in Mid-South. Owns one of the best fist drops around.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ted vs Pat Patterson, WWF 19.6.79

 

I agree that Ted is surprisingly good as a plucky young babyface. He bumps well, and when he was younger looks really tall and lanky, exactly like a young boy looks at that stage. He already throws a nice punch too and has nice fire. I liked how active he kept the arm work when he was on offense, really drilling the arm with knee drops and never sitting in a hold. I liked this a lot, especially compared to other WWE matches of the period.

 

One thing I want to note, particularly for your benefit since I doubt you would have seen it, is that Babyface Ted looks exactly like Babyface Ted Jr. Like, exactly. You should watch the match/angle Ted Jr. had with Orton on Raw 19.10.09. All you need to know is that Ted is one of Orton's lackeys, he sneakily pinned Orton in a three-way the week before, and as punishment Orton orders Ted not to fight back in their match. I think it's a tremendous angle, and for one night Ted shows a crazy amount of emotion and fire. It went absolutely nowhere and they ended up turning Orton face instead, but as a one-off angle, I love it. Anyway that's just what Ted's fire reminds me of.

 

Ted vs JYD, Mid South 24.6.82

 

I have no idea of the wider context here, just watched this on YT randomly, but it seems they're both faces and friends and somehow Ted inadvertantly got himself booked in a LLT with Dog. It's more of an angle than a match, but I really like the angle. You can see the progression: before the match Ted talks about firstly, not knowing if he can beat JYD, and secondly, having to feed his family and the risk to his career here. So then in the match, they're all shaking hands and having a nice friendly babyface match at first, then JYD kicks out of the powerslam, then he blocks the figure four, and only then does Ted load up the glove and BAM. He didn't want to resort to that because JYD is his friend, but in the end he had to, because like he said, he couldn't beat JYD fair and square. I liked how it all made perfect sense like that.

 

Ted vs Magnum, Mid South 27.5.84 x 2

 

Taking both these matches together, they're both really good. The first is just a good, tight, snappy brawl, and the second one plays off the first with the cut opening up and gets a bit grittier, a bit more dramatic. I liked the first match having the sucker punch open (Ted sure likes using that spot) and the second has Magnum expecting it and he counters. I think Ted gives a great performance in the second match. It makes sense coming off the first one that he's desperate to beat him, and he comes off really determined, almost deranged. That little shake/scream he gives just after the cut opens is almost unsettling. I also loved him wrenching on the chinlock to get the blood to pour out. He was quite a fucker in this. On another note, I think it was in the first match that he took the gut punch coming off the top and sells it in the most preposterous way I've ever seen.

 

As an aside, I've never been impressed much with Magnum in the ring either, but I liked him a lot in these too. Great punches, great fire, a ten minute brawl is basically the perfect match for Mag. It's the best I've seen him look outside of the cage match.

 

Ted vs Flair, Mid South 6.11.85

 

This was an awesome angle. Awesome from everyone involved. Perfect way to turn Ted face.

 

Firstly I loved Flair casually kicking Ted to the floor and watching on during the angle. Like "Eh, these kids want to fight amongst themselves, fine by me." The whole Murdoch attack/Watts update part of it ruled.

 

I love how they sold the blood loss in this. Maybe it's on my brain since I gave blood yesterday, but blood loss isn't always sold well in wrestling. Like you can get lots of blood and make faces and get it worked over and what not, but you're not necessarily selling in your body language that you've lost a crazy amount of blood. Sometimes it does the opposite and guys get off on it and go on rampages covered in blood, which looks good, and the blood itself adds to the drama, but doesn't always get over the danger of bleeding (and the very real danger, since it's a real cut).

 

But here, I loved the way it was sold. Ted was semi OK in the beginning, but as the match went on and the bandage came off opening him up, he just got weaker and weaker. By the time he hit the powerslam he couldn't even complete the cover. Sometimes that spot comes off as convenient (like a guy will be fine enough to run and hit a move, but OH, back to selling now, can't cover!) but here it was done expertly and they really earned it. Ted didn't show much fire in this match, but I like that as a choice since he was just so weakened that he didn't have it in him to fire up. He was barely able to hold his body up and survive. Also because his face turn wasn't really complete until afterwards.

 

There's a great bump he takes at the end where Flair sends him over the rope and head first into the rail. That was nasty. As was the brainbuster on the concrete. Jesus. All in all just a super match and angle.

 

Ted vs Dick Murdoch, Mid South 31.12.85 & 1.86

 

Had to watch these after that. I like the spot where Murdoch jumps over the rail to get him, it was a good variation of the "heel gets chased around the ring, slides in and stomps the following face" spot. In fact all the best stuff in these matches happened outside the ring: Murdoch's really violent neck snaps on the rope, and his crazy chair shots too. In the Jan match in particular he looks like he's literally murdering Ted, smashing the edge of the chair right on the back of his neck. Ted is a babyface now and fires up accordingly. I'm not sure on the use of the loaded glove, I mean I'm willing to excuse it as either "babyface stooping for revenge" or "I established this as a heel now I'm a face so it's a face move", but it just seems weird to me that he still needs to cheat to win. Anyway, these are some more good, tight brawls.

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

I also love Flair's imperious indifference during the Murdoch stuff. He's so awesome as the champ coming in from elsewhere.

 

I'm planning on watching some of the NWA Classics stuff shoe references soon, as well as rounding off 86-7 Mid-South, so look out for that.

[JerryvonKramer]

For those still exploring Ted, I'd recommend watching the Jake and Butch Reed matches from 85, which I reviewed here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5730595

 

In them, Dibiase shows us the meaning of how to work heel in pro wrestling matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

DiBiase was a bubble guy for me, but he fell off after underperforming in nearly all of the tags I've seen with Hansen.

Given that you are voting for The Barbarian and have people like Sean Waltman as locks, I find this really pretty baffling.

 

Ted's AJ stuff is pretty tangental to his case, which is built on his Mid-South run primarily where he was the main guy, not Hansen's little buddy.

[InYourCase]

 

DiBiase was a bubble guy for me, but he fell off after underperforming in nearly all of the tags I've seen with Hansen.

Given that you are voting for The Barbarian and have people like Sean Waltman as locks, I find this really pretty baffling.

 

Ted's AJ stuff is pretty tangental to his case, which is built on his Mid-South run primarily where he was the main guy, not Hansen's little buddy.

 

Wait, what? Barbarian wouldn't finish in my Top 500. Waltman is a lock but I also love his style and I think he was excellent at what he did. You don't like junior heavyweights as much as I do.

[goc]

 

DiBiase was a bubble guy for me, but he fell off after underperforming in nearly all of the tags I've seen with Hansen.

Given that you are voting for The Barbarian and have people like Sean Waltman as locks, I find this really pretty baffling.

 

Ted's AJ stuff is pretty tangental to his case, which is built on his Mid-South run primarily where he was the main guy, not Hansen's little buddy.

 

This is the 2nd time in the past few days I've seen you throw out The Barbarian as your name of choice to scoff at and I'm not sure where you got the idea that he's got some big groundswell of support for GWE. There are 4 posts in his thread with only 1 person (who isn't InYourCase) saying they MIGHT put him somewhere between #90-100.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

DiBiase was a bubble guy for me, but he fell off after underperforming in nearly all of the tags I've seen with Hansen.

Given that you are voting for The Barbarian and have people like Sean Waltman as locks, I find this really pretty baffling.

 

Ted's AJ stuff is pretty tangental to his case, which is built on his Mid-South run primarily where he was the main guy, not Hansen's little buddy.

 

Wait, what? Barbarian wouldn't finish in my Top 500. Waltman is a lock but I also love his style and I think he was excellent at what he did. You don't like junior heavyweights as much as I do.

 

I have you confused with NotJayTabb!

 

I don't really care if you do or don't vote Ted, but I do think people should be judged generally on their very best work and then from there see what else there is.

 

Like, that Jake match from 85 I watched the other day is a great example of why the smart community in 1985 would have touted Ted as a world-class worker. I'd maintain he does have solid performances in AJ, but they are all about as pereferal to his case as Tiger Mask II is to Misawa's.

[funkdoc]

in fairness, Barb gets a good amount of love in other threads from the Grimmases and Matt D's of this forum. i also recall JvK having a guest on the early WTBBPs who gushed over him, so he may have that on the brain as well.

 

also yea Jerry, Case is perhaps your biggest polar opposite here in wrestling tastes so i don't see a whole lot coming from you questioning him. not many bigger lovers of flippy wrestling on here!

 

you seem to rail a lot against the "cult favorites" here like Barb & Tenta, but i'm not sure you realize how unlikely they are to make ballots. even the ballots of their biggest supporters! top 100 is an awfully high bar if you watch tons of wrestling.

 

DiBiase is still a sure bet to make the overall top 100 here, while the guys you mock may not make more than 3 or 4 ballots. chill out yo~

[elliott]

I ranked Dibiase 97th in 2016. I like him in bloody brawls in Mid South, but I can't see him staying on my list. I've watched too much stuff since then that I like way more. I don't think his run as a top worker is long enough nor does he burn bright enough to make it. The Million Dollar Man years might be above average in ring, but  I don't see it as the building block or a strong supplement to a clear top 100 career. I'm not sure he was one of the 50 best wrestlers of his generation. 

[strobogo]

Ted is too good to not have more great matches to his record. It's kind of weird. He does everything right, he's very good to great at everything he does, he worked with some of the greats in the US and Japan, but I can't think of many or any truly great DiBiase matches. I think his character work outshines his ring work especially in America, both in Mid South and as the Million Dollar Man. He has what feels to be 50 matches against Tenryu and I have no idea why Baba kept booking it because they had next to no chemistry. The Hansen/DiBiase team was probably more consistently solid than Hansen/Brody, but he certainly did not bring anything extra out of Hansen like Brody did.

 

I think the matches of his I enjoy the most are Mega Powers vs DiBiase/Andre at Summerslam 1988, Macho vs DiBiase at the SNME right before WM 4 where they basically did the entire WM match but it was much better than it was at WM, a Bret vs Ted in 1991 at MSG, and a whole gang of real fun stuff on Mid South TV in 82/83. 

[Shrike02]

Ted is a favourite of mine but in my view his inputs are very good but the output (very few top-end classic matches) just isn't there to rank high on my list. Will probably end up in the top 150 somewhere; I could see him sneaking in on the back half of my list somewhere. He was a very good young babyface, which flies under the radar (I particularly love his 1979 series in New York against Pat Patterson). I plan on revisiting what's come out of the Houston footage to see him there.

 

 

[Childs]

1 hour ago, elliott said:

I ranked Dibiase 97th in 2016. I like him in bloody brawls in Mid South, but I can't see him staying on my list. I've watched too much stuff since then that I like way more. I don't think his run as a top worker is long enough nor does he burn bright enough to make it. The Million Dollar Man years might be above average in ring, but  I don't see it as the building block or a strong supplement to a clear top 100 career. I'm not sure he was one of the 50 best wrestlers of his generation. 

I'm with you. In retrospect, he's one of the few candidates I feel like I put on because I was supposed to. There are at least 30-40 wrestlers I didn't rank whom I find far more interesting than Ted. 

[Matt D]

I think the stereotypical notion of "Ring Generals" potentially doesn't age transfer to what we consider to be compelling matches looking back in 2021. Ted's most interesting stuff are his bloody and heated brawls, both as a babyface and a heel.

[Shrike02]

42 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I think the stereotypical notion of "Ring Generals" potentially doesn't age transfer to what we consider to be compelling matches looking back in 2021. Ted's most interesting stuff are his bloody and heated brawls, both as a babyface and a heel.

A point of comparison just popped into my head. My point above was that Ted had a lot of tools but didn't really maximize his in-ring output given what he could do. (This could well be a contentious point and I'm open to arguments to the contrary.) How does he compare to Barry Windham, who arguably had even more tools than Dibiase but again didn't really have a long career of great output either? I note that Windham did pretty well in the 2016 polling at 25 and Dibiase ranked at 42. I'd predict both are likely to fall in the rankings in 2026.

[Childs]

7 minutes ago, Shrike02 said:

A point of comparison just popped into my head. My point above was that Ted had a lot of tools but didn't really maximize his in-ring output given what he could do. (This could well be a contentious point and I'm open to arguments to the contrary.) How does he compare to Barry Windham, who arguably had even more tools than Dibiase but again didn't really have a long career of great output either? I note that Windham did pretty well in the 2016 polling at 25 and Dibiase ranked at 42. I'd predict both are likely to fall in the rankings in 2026.

If you read back in this thread, you'll find two whole pages on Dibiase vs. Windham. 

[Shrike02]

17 minutes ago, Childs said:

If you read back in this thread, you'll find two whole pages on Dibiase vs. Windham. 

Thanks for this. I will go read the whole thread.

I guess we'll see down the road whether my prediction holds true.

[Childs]

I think you're right about both of them falling. It doesn't feel like the winds are blowing toward lots of in-depth discussion on Mid-South and Crockett, but we'll see. Five years is a long time. Dibiase received a lot of focus last go-round, because Parv was a loud advocate.

[Shrike02]

8 minutes ago, Childs said:

I think you're right about both of them falling. It doesn't feel like the winds are blowing toward lots of in-depth discussion on Mid-South and Crockett, but we'll see. Five years is a long time. Dibiase received a lot of focus last go-round, because Parv was a loud advocate.

My prediction is largely based on what I think will be two huge factors in the voting in 2026: recency bias and a conscious agenda by some voters to include workers they feel have been underrepresented in the past - namely women and luchadores. Add more time to judge workers from the post-2000 time period, and I think a lot of well-known incumbents will slide down or completely off the top 100.

I myself do plan to really watch more Mid-South and Crockett because I didn't grow up watching those territories and have only cherry-picked some of the most highly-regarded matches to see over the past few years. I've never really done a systematic examination of either territory.

[elliott]

Windham is way better than DIbiase. 

After 2016 there's some wrestlers that I've just sort of closed the book on and one of them is Ted. There's nothing wrong with Ted. He's very good overall and in a variety of settings. He's hampered by the fact that a lot of us first approached Ted with the idea that he was a super worker. He's always had that reputation.  And the footage to really show that just never solidified in a satisfying way. He's good but he was never the top 10 guy in the world he was promoted as. Compare 1985 Ted Dibiase to 1985 Chigusa Nagayo or 1984 Satanico or 1983 Jerry Lawler or 1986 RIcky Morton and its just mean spirited. Compare him to Windham who has the reputation of a guy who never lived up to his potential and Windham is just a much better all around performer in the ring. Ted is polished and a 2nd generation star and so people tend to call him a natural, but I'm not sure that's true. Perhaps as an athlete and in terms of his execution but I never got the sense that he was a real deep thinker as a performer. He was going to execute his moves well  and do all the things hes supposed to do, but he was never going to go outside the box or greatly exceed expectations. I dunno if I can't really put it into words. I guess it really comes down to it I feel like I'm more likely to be disappointed by a Dibiase match or performance than really blown away by it.