Leaving money on the table...

[Downend2005]

Simply put, what matches could and perhaps should have happened, but never did?

 

I'm not talking about how the WWF should have signed Sting, Goldberg etc for the invasion (that discussion has already been held enough times), but instead what matches were actually possible and for whatever reason (money, politics, stubbornness) didn't happen.

 

For example, I'm amazed that WWE didn't run Undertaker vs Cena at Wrestlemania this year. It would have guaranteed a monster amount of interest and buys, with the result of an Undertaker mania match actually in reasonable doubt for the first time in years. (Possibly since the Orton match at 21).

 

It's also amazing to think that Taker never had a mania match with Austin or Rock either. He could have easily worked Austin in 2002 and heel Rock in 2003 (okay, it would have meant gutting Rock/Austin 3, but could you imagine the promos Hollywood Rock would have cut about ending the streak?)

 

Austin vs Hogan in 2002 is the big one of course, but what other examples are there?

[MartelFan38]

First two that come to mind are Hogan-Warrior Part 2 from WM7 and Hogan-Flair from WM8.

[WingedEagle]

Hogan/Hart as a major match in WCW. For that matter Hart vs. just about every name in WCW other than Flair. Some of them happened, but none were a fraction as big as they should've been. Cena/Taker the big standout in WWE.

[fakeplastictrees]

Hogan/Flair wasn't done because they were drawing poor houses IIRC, especially on the west coast (but then Orange County has never been a strong market).

 

Hogan/Warrior II is definitely up there as is Hogan/Austin. Austin walked out of WWE because WWE wanted to pull a WCW and toss Austin/Lesnar (a money match) on Raw with zero build. Those are the three that have been talked about in WWE and were planned, but never happened. Everything else I can think of are just dream matches (i.e. Goldberg vs. Taker, etc.).

[PhilTLL]

Here's some discussion about Hogan/Warrior 2 and why it might have been squashed for drawing reasons in the Hogan/Earthquake at SummerSlam Yearbook thread.

 

I remember Meltzer specifically being surprised at how poorly Hogan/Flair drew in the Bay Area, too. Historyofwwe says it actually drew less in SF than Anaheim, 5k vs 6.3k, and SF drew around the 7's for Savage/Warrior, Slaughter/Warrior and Slaughter/Hogan in the same year.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Hogan/Hart as a major match in WCW. For that matter Hart vs. just about every name in WCW other than Flair. Some of them happened, but none were a fraction as big as they should've been. Cena/Taker the big standout in WWE.

Hogan & Hart definitely should have happened. Hogan vs Nash in 1998 would have been huge (watch the April 20th Nitro when Nash powerbombs Hogan people lose their shit) and would have been a direction for the very aimless WCW. A well-executed NWO Civil War would have allowed WCW to compete with WWF through 1998.

[thebrainfollower]

I think Savage-Rude would have drawn decent money with Rude hitting on Elizabeth. Better than Savage-Bad News which didn't draw.

 

 

Savage chasing heel champ Flair might have drawn better than the other way around.

 

Rock-Taker at WM 19? Not sure I agree. The streak was more a fun anecdote than a big thing at that point. It really didn't come up much until WM 21. In general WCW 1998 just has no direction. It has one of the greatest collection of main eventers of all time and very few money main events. Too much politics prevented such an easy opportunity.

[DMJ]

I'd heard that Flair/Hogan didn't draw on tour...but, then, in 94', IIRC, they do a big number for their first PPV match and have the most watched Clash in years (if not ever?). I don't know or have time now to look at the figures, but it seems to me that there has to be some other explanation for why those house shows did poor numbers and that, even if they DID do poor numbers, Hogan/Flair would've drawn in 92' just as well as it did in 94' (if not better) on PPV. Something doesn't make sense to me about that.

 

The name CM Punk comes to mind. As part of SES, he had a natural feud with HBK he could've worked. Later, they also left money on the table by not really doing anything with his "walk out" angle in 2011 - the kind of thing that, I'd argue, could have been built up like a Mad Men or Breaking Bad storyline where you may not get the pay-off next week or the week after, but 5 weeks later, you have some fans who have been waiting with baited breath since he left and a growing number of new-ish fans who might have missed Punk's pipebomb and his walk-out at MITB, but then, thanks to the buzz, played catch-up, and now were tuning in. One could also call this the "Weezer Green Album" phenomenon where Pinkerton tanked, but years later, word of mouth made their return a bigger deal than even their debut. I'm not even a huge CM Punk fan, but it just seems like those two would-be storylines would've been done just as good ratings as anything else the company did during non-Mania season.

[MartelFan38]

Phil- thanks for the link... At the end of the day I think the debate to focus on is what would have sold better- Hogan-Warrior or Hogan-Slaughter at WM7. Not sure there is a valid argument that says that Slaughter would have made more money in that spot than Warrior. With that said, you could have even done Hogan-Warrior at Summerslam 91 and that would have made big bucks more than the handicap tag.

 

I think the biggest response to the Hogan-Flair House Show argument is that no one would think that Flair or Hogan would do the job at a house show in Oakland, that they would wait for WM8 for that moment. I think the WWF was a victim of it's own circumstances and got too nervous about the gates and then combined with the Steroid situation, Vince got flustered and went with what he knew best which was Hogan against a big monster (Sid).

[Ricky Jackson]

For what it's worth, Hogan vs Sid was apparently Vince's plan for Mania VIII almost as soon as Mania VII was over.

[MartelFan38]

Ricky- that's certainly a common theory out there- that Sid signed a contract that he would get the Title Shot at WM8. I would have to imagine that when they signed Flair that plan changed to Hogan-Flair at WM8.

 

With that said, does anyone else think Vince could have made a lot more money going with a Flair-Hogan match instead of "This Tuesday in Texas?" They could hype the event as just "Hogan vs. Flair" like a big boxing match- possibly with a sub title. You could throw in the same bunch of garbage they had on the undercard and it would have been a big money maker.

[bradhindsight]

I'd argue that they deliberately didn't leave money on the table (for better or worse) with CM Punk in 2011. SummerSlam is their second biggest show of the year - he had to be a part of it. There is no way that show is drawing with Cena/Mysterio.

[van_Fair]

Austin vs Brock

 

Could have been a massive draw on PPV. But Vince wanted to throw the match away for free on a random RAW and Austin walked out.

[Johnny Guitar]

Bret. vs Flair at Royal Rumble 1993 and Savage at Wrestlemania 9.

 

May not have drawn gangbuster numbers. But would surely be better than Razor & Yoko.

 

Could have properly established Bret as the Ace and we could have gotten 2 classic matches from it.

[Fantastic]

Austin vs Brock

 

Could have been a massive draw on PPV. But Vince wanted to throw the match away for free on a random RAW and Austin walked out.

 

This.

 

In fact, it should have been Austin who was the champion putting Brock over at Summerslam that year in place of The Rock. This would have really put forward the point of a new "new era". Austin could have taken the belt from Taker (or hell, even Hogan..) and lost to Brock in what would surely have been a megadraw.

[Venegas]

Obviously on a much smaller scale, but Low Ki challenging Samoa Joe for the ROH World Title in late '04 would've been huge.

[El-P]

Bret. vs Flair at Royal Rumble 1993 and Savage at Wrestlemania 9.

 

May not have drawn gangbuster numbers. But would surely be better than Razor & Yoko.

 

Could have properly established Bret as the Ace and we could have gotten 2 classic matches from it.

 

Oh yeah. Savage not working WM 9 was a travesty considering the slump they were in at the time.

[The Chief]

 

 

Austin vs Brock

 

Could have been a massive draw on PPV. But Vince wanted to throw the match away for free on a random RAW and Austin walked out.

This.

 

In fact, it should have been Austin who was the champion putting Brock over at Summerslam that year in place of The Rock. This would have really put forward the point of a new "new era". Austin could have taken the belt from Taker (or hell, even Hogan..) and lost to Brock in what would surely have been a megadraw.

No it wouldn't. In 2002 you could argue Austin may have been slightly lower on the totem pole than Rock and quite frankly Austin's stock dropped quite a bit after turning back face. I see no reason why the buy rate would be different.

[Fantastic]

 

 

Austin vs Brock

 

Could have been a massive draw on PPV. But Vince wanted to throw the match away for free on a random RAW and Austin walked out.

This.

 

In fact, it should have been Austin who was the champion putting Brock over at Summerslam that year in place of The Rock. This would have really put forward the point of a new "new era". Austin could have taken the belt from Taker (or hell, even Hogan..) and lost to Brock in what would surely have been a megadraw.

No it wouldn't. In 2002 you could argue Austin may have been slightly lower on the totem pole than Rock and quite frankly Austin's stock dropped quite a bit after turning back face. I see no reason why the buy rate would be different.

 

 

I see your point....

 

Such a match though, just doesn't seem to fit outside of a big four PPV. You are literally talking about a rookie going over the face (up until that point at least) of the company and supplanting him as the face of the new era.

[tigerpride]

I'd argue that they deliberately didn't leave money on the table (for better or worse) with CM Punk in 2011. SummerSlam is their second biggest show of the year - he had to be a part of it. There is no way that show is drawing with Cena/Mysterio.

 

What? Cena and Mysterio were two of the biggest stars in the company and had not faced each other on PPV. That match would've been huge

[bradhindsight]

 

I'd argue that they deliberately didn't leave money on the table (for better or worse) with CM Punk in 2011. SummerSlam is their second biggest show of the year - he had to be a part of it. There is no way that show is drawing with Cena/Mysterio.

 

What? Cena and Mysterio were two of the biggest stars in the company and had not faced each other on PPV. That match would've been huge

 

 

The money was in Punk/Cena II and with their second biggest show of the year the following month, it was a no-brainer. Mysterio/Cena was a great RAW main event, but after all that buzz, you can't leave Punk off that card in my opinion.

[goodhelmet]

Completely disagree with Brad. The real money was in seeing Punk holding the belt hostage and appearing with it at various events and media shows setting up the slow burn leading to his return. I think Dylan would agree that it was the perfect time to set up the Cena heel turn and Rey was fucking still over at that point. Rey was leaving after Summerslam to have surgery I think so Cena could have been the one to lay Rey out and take credit for enfing his career. You could have had a solid co-main to help Summerslam and the Punk ' s eventual return would blow the roof off the place.

[tigerpride]

 

 

I'd argue that they deliberately didn't leave money on the table (for better or worse) with CM Punk in 2011. SummerSlam is their second biggest show of the year - he had to be a part of it. There is no way that show is drawing with Cena/Mysterio.

 

What? Cena and Mysterio were two of the biggest stars in the company and had not faced each other on PPV. That match would've been huge

 

 

The money was in Punk/Cena II and with their second biggest show of the year the following month, it was a no-brainer. Mysterio/Cena was a great RAW main event, but after all that buzz, you can't leave Punk off that card in my opinion.

 

What goodhelmet said.

 

You spend all month with Punk holding the belt hostage and maybe doing stealth appearances on RAW while building to Mysterio v. Cena dream match.

 

Cena wins and then Punk comes out at the end of the show.

 

Punk v. Cena II was such a no-brainer that Summerslam tanked. A Cena v. Rey dream match was the way to go.

[goodhelmet]

I talked to Punk leading up to the Summerslam show and he wanted to go further with it but was in a tight spot holding the belt. Less than a month later, he knew the whole thing was fucked once Hunter and Nash got into it.

[Johnny Sorrow]

What " various events and media shows" would have given any time or coverage of "Pro Wrestler CM Punk with The WWE belt"? I'm struggling to think of anywhere he would have showed up with it that would have meant anything mainstream.