WWN Live-Evolve, I-ppv's

[bradhindsight]

Dave's been reviewing the weekend shows and we just put up the Supershow:

 

http://placetobenation.com/wwn-supershow-mercury-rising-2016-review/

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

Evolve is the most inconsistent yet oddly awesome promotion perhaps in the world. They have these really good workers that have strong matches yet the booking is so often lacking. Not to mention the aforementioned technical issues. It makes me sad because I loved Sapolsky era ROH and this isn't anywhere near that for me.

[Luchaundead]

Evolve is the most inconsistent yet oddly awesome promotion perhaps in the world. They have these really good workers that have strong matches yet the booking is so often lacking. Not to mention the aforementioned technical issues. It makes me sad because I loved Sapolsky era ROH and this isn't anywhere near that for me.

 

What is lacking in the booking to you? I ask because to my taste they have the right level of very limited realistic competition based booking that you could ask for, so much so that when they do try to add in some sports-entertainment style angles they stand out and actually feel more important because they are rare. Most of the stories and character development in done in the matches and almost everything is done in the ring in front of the live audience which for me is what wrestling really should be. Again I am curious do know what more you would like to see from Evolve booking wise and in no way am I trying question the validity for your opinion I'd just like to have better understand of what a fellow fan thinks is missing from what I see as an almost flawless product.

[Childs]

I don't think the booking is bad, but I don't get the sense they have a consistent audience, which hurts the heat when they try to run angles. At the height of Gabe's ROH, you always got the sense fans were locked into the product, whether through live attendance or buying DVDs. So if they started an angle in Philly, they could pick it up two weeks later in Chicago without a massive disconnect.

 

Evolve doesn't run as often, and the fans in Florida don't necessarily seem to pick up where the fans in New York left off. There's a band of hardcores like us, watching a bunch of the shows VOD, but that audience isn't necessarily represented at the live events. I'm thinking about something like the Caleb Konley challenge to Thatcher, which they built to for months but which seemed to go over like a wet fart in the building. There wasn't anything wrong with the storyline. Something like that probably would have generated real heat in Gabe's ROH. But with Evolve, if fans aren't into the match in front of them, the storyline doesn't seem to matter much.

[Loss]

Not so much a critique as a suggestion: I like how Evolve feels modern even in the ways that it's a throwback because the heavy focus on matwork hasn't been done in so long that it really feels contemporary and fresh. But I do wish that they'd accompany that with more focus on the rules. The six-man from Mercury Rising was awesome, but the referee was counting every single pin or submission attempt down the final stretch, no matter who did it, regardless of who the legal men were. That sounds like a limitation, but I think heavier focus on stuff like that would actually add to the drama more than it would restrict the wrestlers. Of course, I say that after watching one show that was more of a supershow, so that could be a misplaced point.

[goodhelmet]

I was one of those who enjoyed the hell out of that Hero-Sabre match and it might be my live match of the week. I also enjoyed the opening tag from Evolve 58 more than anyone else anywhere.

[Dylan Waco]

I can't fairly rate that because I worked it.

[goodhelmet]

Hahahaha. I also meant to say Evolve 59 because that was the great match. The funky finish and the mark jumping the rail killed the 58 tag for me

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

 

Evolve is the most inconsistent yet oddly awesome promotion perhaps in the world. They have these really good workers that have strong matches yet the booking is so often lacking. Not to mention the aforementioned technical issues. It makes me sad because I loved Sapolsky era ROH and this isn't anywhere near that for me.

 

What is lacking in the booking to you? I ask because to my taste they have the right level of very limited realistic competition based booking that you could ask for, so much so that when they do try to add in some sports-entertainment style angles they stand out and actually feel more important because they are rare. Most of the stories and character development in done in the matches and almost everything is done in the ring in front of the live audience which for me is what wrestling really should be. Again I am curious do know what more you would like to see from Evolve booking wise and in no way am I trying question the validity for your opinion I'd just like to have better understand of what a fellow fan thinks is missing from what I see as an almost flawless product.

 

Honestly I think I'm just such a child of those ROH days with Gabe that his approach in Evolve just sits odd with me. That and all too often I feel like the finishes of matches are lacking either in proper build or direction. I absolutely agree that they try to do the storytelling with the matches and I also feel like that is a breath of fresh air. Although I will say that lately the product has done some very good things with the addition of Catch Point as a catalyst, heel faction against the rest of the roster along with PAB to a degree.

[Childs]

Hero delivered a masterful performance in the ZSJ match. I loved the way he controlled the pace, and the moves he hit in the finishing sequence were just sick. The crowd didn't seem ready for the match to end when it did but goddamn that was emphatic. I might like this chunky indie boss phase more than any other period of his career.

 

Sabre was also good in the match. At this point, I like him better working as an underdog than as an even-steven technical master.

[Luchaundead]

It seems everyone's argument against Evolve is to compare it to peak Gabe booked ROH which I do not contend that Evolve is better than early ROH but I'd say it's actually better than ROH was towards the end of Gabe's run as booker there. My point is to say that basically Gabe couldn't keep that up and he is smart enough to see that he needed to do something completely different to refresh his product and after his 1st failed attempt at this sports based style followed by the flash in the pan high flying trend he has came to a balance of both that is really working for him, I can see the argument about the crowds though that is to be expect with a product that has no TV. It's important to also realize current ROH and WWE have a similar problem WWE's being crowds choose to boo Roman Reigns when they know cameras are on to go against what they see as the company forcing something they don't enjoy almost playing a role for the show then on house shows cheering the guy because they don't have to keep kayfabe. On the other hand ROH crowds especially in Philly will cheer the heels including Jay Lethal on what they see as house shows and then because they support the product will boo them for TV and PPV. My point being Evolve live crowds may not think of it as a show they are being involved in as a character and thus the wrestlers need to put more focus on getting organic reactions but this is the hardest part of wrestling and always has been. What makes current Evolve possibly the most important company in wrestling today is Evolve has a chance to break the cycle of smart crowds reacting the way they think they are supposed to and getting them to actually react because it is being emotionally drawn out of them with Evolve using a more basic old school style of wrestling show it's a step backwards but still in the right direction possibly repairing the damage done by the past years of sports-entertainment.

[ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge]

I couldn't agree more on that lucha. I guess what I mainly meant was that because I was so young in my internet 'rasslin fandom during the ROH peak, it's hard for me to associate him with any other company. I definitely love Evolve for what it is and I think you're right about it changing perceptions that fans have that are in the IWC.

[AstroBoy]

I'm gonna go ahead and argue that Tracy Williams is one of the most underappreciated and best wrestlers of 2016 so far. He is so bland on the surface and didn't really stick out to me at first but I'm starting to feel that his blandness sort of helps him as a really great fiery babyface.

 

He had the Hero match at 56 which was spectacular and I think he brought a ton to the table. I never feel like he engages in bullshit no-selling strike exchanges. Everything he got against Hero was a struggle and well-earned and coming out of that match I think the logical goal is you want to see him topple Hero at some point.

 

I haven't the Riddle match from 55 but the one from the Supershow was awesome and he looked great taking a lot on offense. It told a great story of him finally having enough to one up his teammate and then keeping his cool down the stretch to put him away. This is going to sound weird but it goes back to the blandness thing. There is a real sincerity to what he does in the ring even if he looks like he shouldn't be standing toe to toe with these guys. It makes him believable and and easier to get behind and I really think he's a darkhorse to hold the EVOLVE belt in the near future. I see people fawning over Hero, Riddle, Sabre, etc. . . and rightly so but I don't think this guy should get undersold on what he's brought to the table over the past few months.

[Blehschmidt]

I'll second that opinion on Williams, but I also find him to be quite good when he is wrestling a somewhat flashier style in his Chikara gimmick.

[Tim Evans]

Went to the FIP show tonight in Orlando that took place at the comic store Gods and Monsters. Interesting place to run a show with a bar, people dressed like rabbits playing board games and wrestlers walking around everywhere because the building had no dressing room. I was standing about the announcers and the IPPV booth. It's interesting how they put on the IPPV by just using one computer and only 2 cameras. No wonder the feeds is so shitty sometimes.

 

Anyways, as for the show, Fred Yehi finally won something in WWN as he came the new number 1 contender for Caleb konley's FIP title by winning the Florida Rumble. It featured a lot of local Florida/Georgia guys like Jody Kristofferson, Black Osiris, Martin Stone, Yehi, Michael Tarver and Black Baron among others. He did the HBK gimmick of entering number 1 and winning it all. That was the only thing of not on the show as it went down hill from there. Lots of 3 ways and a very strange Michael Tarver main event as he's doing a bipolar gimmick and was talking about how he attempted suicide and stuff like that.

[...TG]

Gabe's twitter feed says that we're getting a Hero/ZSJ rematch at Evolve 60 on May 6, plus Johnny Gargano v Drew Galloway at Evolve 61 the next day.

[Luchaundead]

Gabe's twitter feed says that we're getting a Hero/ZSJ rematch at Evolve 60 on May 6, plus Johnny Gargano v Drew Galloway at Evolve 61 the next day.

Oh no those could both be blow offs for the precieved non-WWE future guys

[donsem43]

Watched the first round from the Shimmer Mania weekend show. Thought Savoy/LuFisto had the best moments but ultimately was too awkward/sloppy to be good. Cherry Bomb/LaRae was solid but hurt by a dumb finish. Heidi Lovelace/Veda Scott was the best match which was surprise because I've never seen Veda look good in the ring before. Looking forward to the rest of the show though, the matchups for the semis and the final look promising.

[EricR]

Phil and I reviewed the WWN Supershow and three of the matches from it landed on our MOTY list. Second half of the show wasn't much but that first half can stand up against any wrestling show ever.

 

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2016/04/wwn-supershow-mercury-rising-4216.html

 

Hopefully we can get reviews up for 58 and 59 soon.

[Dylan Waco]

My favorite part of the review was the burial of the six-man main event which I knew was coming, but it still didn't disappoint. Obviously I really enjoyed it, but I was there live and no clue how I'd feel on rewatch.

 

On Thatcher v. Callihan I do agree that it was better than some were saying, but I'm also tired of making excuses for Thatcher. The guy is a great grappler, but I don't think I've ever seen a wrestler as a skilled as him who had a worse sense for feeling the crowd and timing comebacks. I can't tell if he doesn't care or what, but there points in that Sami match where the crowd was starting to get up for it and he'd just lay through the crowd involvement almost like he was viscerally opposed to the idea of feeding off of a reaction. I still like the guy a lot, and he's had some matches this year I've loved, but it's still hard to ignore that.

 

Glad everyone is on board the Riddle, Yehi and even Williams trains. All three of them are outstanding.

[Luchaundead]

Much like American Dragon going WWE indy wrestling crowds need retraining and being a man that doesn't seem to find much humorous, Thatcher is just the man to do

[EricR]

My favorite part of the review was the burial of the six-man main event which I knew was coming, but it still didn't disappoint. Obviously I really enjoyed it, but I was there live and no clue how I'd feel on rewatch.

 

On Thatcher v. Callihan I do agree that it was better than some were saying, but I'm also tired of making excuses for Thatcher. The guy is a great grappler, but I don't think I've ever seen a wrestler as a skilled as him who had a worse sense for feeling the crowd and timing comebacks. I can't tell if he doesn't care or what, but there points in that Sami match where the crowd was starting to get up for it and he'd just lay through the crowd involvement almost like he was viscerally opposed to the idea of feeding off of a reaction. I still like the guy a lot, and he's had some matches this year I've loved, but it's still hard to ignore that.

 

Glad everyone is on board the Riddle, Yehi and even Williams trains. All three of them are outstanding.

 

And it should be noted that I wasn't aware of how liked or disliked the main event six man was before I watched and wrote about it. I avoided any results or thoughts from others. Now I don't think you're saying I was burying it to be kewl or something, just pointing out I went into the shows not knowing anything. I fully know how live experience can have a completely different effect on matches. It's one of the reasons I've not gone back and watched last years Mania weekend Evolve/WWN shows, as they were my favorite live shows of the year. Shoot, same reason I've never gone back and watched ROH's Cow Palace show from like 7-8 years ago. But damn that main event six man was bad

 

I agree with you on Thatcher. I may have been his earliest drum thumper, and he's just lacked for me this year. Both of his Callihan matches have underwhelmed me, among other stuff. Where I used to think Gulak was a distant 3rd in the whole Thatcher/Busick/Gulak group, Gulak is now consistently my favorite guy to watch, with Yehi right there with him. Riddle is a flat out natural. I even mentioned in some review that I don't think there's been an easier wrestling ROY since Jun Akiyama.

[Boon]

Just finished up both of the Dallas show, and for someone who hasn't watched any evolve stuff since their first couple of shows I really enjoyed watching them and fully on board with the product.

 

Some general thoughts...

 

Although I've not seen the Supershow, I love the way Thatcher is booked, reminds me of when Danielson was at mid point of his reign in ROH and was weathered, but ultimately still coming out on top (I'm thinking of the Cabana/McGuiness weekend). But I think his reign will come to an end probably in the summer, due to being worn down by the schedule so to speak.

 

Chris Hero is just an absolute star and booked like one, he is the measuring stick for all the up and comers and plays the role fantastically. And I'm fine with his look, if he keep at the level he was this weekend.

 

I agree with everyone else when it comes to Matt Riddle, the guy is a star in the making and would get over massively in the WWE, he just has an aura where you know he could hurt anyone.

 

The match of the weekend bar the Supershow which I'll watch over the course of the week, has got to be Sabre vs Ospreay. Ospreay is going to be very good, but Sabre is just there for me, I loved everything he did, I wouldn't be surprised if he was being lined up as Thatchers successor.

 

The only opportunity I could see was the stuff outside of the matches, the ending of 59 wasn't as slick as I think a show ending angle should be similar to the opening of 58, other than that, really looking forward to 60 & 61.

[AstroBoy]

A few thoughts after working my way through EVOLVE 54 and 55. . .

 

My God Rocky Romero might be my least favorite wrestler of all time. How can somebody be so bland and devoid of personality. Saying "azucar" or wearing an eyepatch doesn't equate to charisma. God. Trent Baretta is about as bad but I like the way he bumps.

 

This is more related to WM weekend shows but I'll say that I like Will Ospreay a lot. I think there are far more egregious flyers on the indie scene than him. I think he makes an effort to sell and he is still young. And for instance I don't see him popping up after a Zack Sabre DDT as a no-sell, I see it as a counter. Not sure if that's the intent, but that's totally how I see it. I think his kicks and strikes are fine and it's not like he relies on them a ton. He doesn't resemble Matt Sydal in the way he sells, but I would say he does in the way he uses pretty simple and crisp looking flying offense.

 

Tommy End is another guy I just don't get at all. I can't see anything he does that well other than throw fun intricate striking combos and it's not like there aren't enough guys whose character is "great striker". He seems well suited in tags and he also has the world's worst chant specific to his character.

 

Sami Callihan/Zack Sabre had a pretty fun and underrated match on 55. Built around dueling limb work and felt like it had a nice build to a pretty nasty finish. I hate hate hate Callihan burning through such a nasty head drop as a false finish but the cinder block forearm as an immediate exclamation point works for me.

 

Bravado Brothers seem underappreciated and very solid. Sidenote: I could do without ever seeing another tag match run through the same chain of strikes that end with all four guys lying in the middle of the ring to applause toward the end of the match. This seriously infuriates me.

 

Matt Riddle has the best theme music in wrestling.

 

[soup23]

A few thoughts after working my way through EVOLVE 54 and 55. . .

 

My God Rocky Romero might be my least favorite wrestler of all time. How can somebody be so bland and devoid of personality. Saying "azucar" or wearing an eyepatch doesn't equate to charisma. God. Trent Baretta is about as bad but I like the way he bumps.

 

This is more related to WM weekend shows but I'll say that I like Will Ospreay a lot. I think there are far more egregious flyers on the indie scene than him. I think he makes an effort to sell and he is still young. And for instance I don't see him popping up after a Zack Sabre DDT as a no-sell, I see it as a counter. Not sure if that's the intent, but that's totally how I see it. I think his kicks and strikes are fine and it's not like he relies on them a ton. He doesn't resemble Matt Sydal in the way he sells, but I would say he does in the way he uses pretty simple and crisp looking flying offense.

 

Tommy End is another guy I just don't get at all. I can't see anything he does that well other than throw fun intricate striking combos and it's not like there aren't enough guys whose character is "great striker". He seems well suited in tags and he also has the world's worst chant specific to his character.

 

Sami Callihan/Zack Sabre had a pretty fun and underrated match on 55. Built around dueling limb work and felt like it had a nice build to a pretty nasty finish. I hate hate hate Callihan burning through such a nasty head drop as a false finish but the cinder block forearm as an immediate exclamation point works for me.

 

Bravado Brothers seem underappreciated and very solid. Sidenote: I could do without ever seeing another tag match run through the same chain of strikes that end with all four guys lying in the middle of the ring to applause toward the end of the match. This seriously infuriates me.

 

Matt Riddle has the best theme music in wrestling.

 

Will's selling vs. Sabre was some of the best selling he has done. I wasn't real high on the Ricochet match even looking at it from an insane highspot perspective. Will is an amazing talent that has already become the next IT guy on the indies and beyond. His selling vs. Kushida in there Invasion Attack match was really impressive as he does a no hand handspring which was amazing to see.

 

Both Tommy End and Marty Scrull have been a bit of a struggle for me. I don't think either is bad but I haven't really seen them elevate themselves up and portray themselves in a hate filled environment that really gets me invested in the match they are competed in. A minor example but something like Fred Yehi vs. Hot Sauce from Evolve 53 had more intense staredowns, grappling and striking than most of the Scurll and End stuff. The Villain is also a gimmick that I think is inauthentic and trying too hard whereas Progress has more natural heels in Paul Robinson and Zack Gibson.

 

Thatcher's weekend overall probably looks better on tape and may look better in retrospect because of the burial he received from the live attendees. I thought his match with Scurll and Callihan were both good and really nice story driven matches with him heavily focusing on his wounded arm. I don't think he had a spectacular WM weekend by any means, but I do think it is overblown how much of a disaster it really was and I am not too enthused about the current angle with him laying down the Evolve championship.