Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta

[dawho5]

In keeping with the current trends I thought it might be good to take a look at two other guys who will almost certainly finish high in the voting.

 

This one interests me quite a bit because there are both direct and indirect comparisons to be made.

 

They both worked as the ace of All Japan for an extended period of time. They worked against one another during the transitional period and that can come into play for comparison as well. I feel like an interesting comparison here would also be how Misawa worked with Kobashi during the years Kobashi overtook Kawada as the #2. It would be a very direct comparison to Jumbo vs. Misawa in my mind.

 

On the flip side, one worked a very athletic, cutting edge style punctuated with stiff elbows. As well of having a long list of finisher level moves that dwarfs a listing of every move used by the majority of his contemporaries and wresters who came before him. While the other was a very simple, traditional wrestler with good athleticism for his size, but his calling cards were doing the little things exceptionally well, adapting to the moment, working pitch perfect across from whoever he was up against and using a limited amount of simple tools (in comparison to Misawa) to great effect. Another great contrast is their style as the ace. Jumbo was emotional, went with the flow and worked to his opponent to an incredible degree. Misawa was stoic, dictated the way the promotion was going and had a formula he plugged his opponents into with small variations. I'm not saying Misawa was always really formulaic, but when he was working somebody much lower on the card he didn't seem to make all that much seem different.

 

I personally lean towards Jumbo for several reasons. I feel like he had a deeper grasp of the dynamics of a main event vs. midcarder match and that's a pretty big thing when you are the ace of a traditional Japanese wrestling company. I also think he adapted far better than Misawa did as time went on in his career. It doesn't hurt that I also felt like Kawada was the better wrestler than Misawa and should have been in Kobashi's spot.

[goodhelmet]

I had to go with Jumb for one main reason... was great against a wider variety of opponents over a long amount of time. Plus, in his cluster of peers (Kawada, Kobashi, Taue), I don't even know if Misawa would be my #1 within that group.

[benjaminkicks]

Right now on my GWE draft Jumbo is #2 and Misawa is somewhere in the 6-10 range.

 

I love Misawa, but right now I have Kawada above him as well.

 

I'm still working my way through a 90's All Japan rewatch/gap filler right now though, and some NOAH stuff that needs a revisit, so there's plenty of chances for Misawa's stock to go up with me.

 

Still got plenty of prime 70's and 80's Jumbo to watch as well though, so the sky is really the limit for both guys.

[JerryvonKramer]

Right now, when I'm up to 1993 in my AJ watching, it's Jumbo and easily.

 

Ask me again when I've finished with the 90s. It's going to be very very hard for Misawa to topple Jumbo, but it's not impossible.

 

I think ultimately, Jumbo will win because he worked over 3-4 different eras and excelled in every style, whereas Misawa it seems to me only mastered one style.

 

Jumbo had great matches against every NWA champion of the 1970s in both singles and tags, I've not yet seen his matches with Robinson or The Destroyer. He was great in the early 80s vs. Flair. He was great in the late 80s first vs. Choshu / Yatsu, then vs. Tenryu and co. He was great as Grumpy Jumbo in the early 90s vs. Misawa and co. Four eras, four styles, four distinct sets of opponents, and he was great vs. all of them. And this is without taking little things like his AWA matches into account. At the moment Jumbo for quality and quantity and variety of oppoonents over time is the only guy I see as being comparible to Ric Flair. So that's why they are my #1 and #2 (final order still to be determined).

 

Misawa has a very good chance of breaking into my top 5 and even my top 3. But it's going to take an unbelievable run from 94 to 2000 to break top 2. Chad has Misawa as #1 and Chad is a guy whose views I respect and we agree fairly often, so that's one major reason I'm not ruling it out. I'm also aware that the 95 match with Kawada is frequently heralded as the GOAT match.

[soup23]

So Parv gave it away but I have Misawa here but it is very close and I don't begrudge anyone saying Jumbo at all.

 

I think the main thing for me is that when thinking about great Jumbo opponents, you have the Tenryu series but then what is #2? Flair, Martel, Choshu(disappointing singles), Hansen (somewhat disappointing in that most matches are around ***1/2 instead of ****+ for two GOAT contenders), Misawa?

 

I really don't know what would be my #2 choice for Jumbo as an opponent.

 

Beyond that, I don't think there is any way it could eclipse the Kobashi series vs. Misawa which is firmly #2 for most individuals. I have just trekked through all of the major matches of that feud and here is the star ratings for them all:

 

10/25/95: ****

3/31/96: ****

1/20/97: ***** (Greatest Match of all time for me right now)

Carnival 97: ***3/4

10/97: ****3/4

10/31/98: ***** (MOTY for 1998)

6/99: ****1/2 (still the toughest match for me to rank in the entire 90's, don't really disagree with some that hate this match but it did a lot right for me so I awarded accordingly)

3/03: ***** (certainly EPIC in its nature but it does it better than any other match of that type and does feel really like a torch passing moment that you really rarely see in wrestling)

 

That is a nasty stretch of matches and even if you think my ratings are inflated for the back half of the series (Dawho5 doesn't like 10/31/98 for example), I think there is plenty of quality stuff there.

 

I don't want to leave Kawada out in the cold as the series vs. him also presents some great stuff:

 

10/92: ****1/4 (due for a rewatch from me)

7/93: **** (ditto to the above and coming up on my 93 watches)

Carnival 94: ***3/4

6/94: ***** (top 10 match of all time)

Carnival 95: ****

7/95: ****1/2

Carnival 97: ****1/4

6/97: ***1/2 (disappointing and something clearly off)

Carnival 98: ****

5/1/98: ****1/2 (overrated by me but I match I have always been higher on than most)

1/99: ****1/2 (This has gotten a rep bump over the years)

7/99: ***1/2 (Due for a rewatch too and coming up)

7/05: ****

 

Only one stinker here which is not bad at all.

 

But Jumbo had great tag matches. Yes he did have the series vs. Choshu and army. However, Misawa has and is the integral piece of the Kobashi/Misawa vs. Kawada/Taue series. My ranking for those?

 

6/93: ****3/4, really great match that Parv just loved when him and Steven watched it

12/93: *****, more of a Kawada match but Misawa is great in it

5/21/94: *****, my #3 MOTY for 1994 and an awesome match

RWTL 1994: ****

1/95: **** (due for rewatch)

6/9/95: ***** (Probably my #2 match of all time right now)

10/95: ****1/4 (also due for rewatch)

RWTL Final 95: ****

 

That also speaks for itself and beats any Choshu tag feud IMO.

 

Misawa doesn't stop there and also has the Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue feud which again encompasses 4-5 matches equaling or bettering the **** range. The 12/6/96 match is yet again another contender for a top 10 match of all time.

 

Jumbo/Misawa both could be considered disappointing vs. Hansen and I don't know which of the three is to blame for that 10/86 and 5/93 feel like a tie as far as match quality as the best match vs. Hansen. The other stuff surrounding the series probably has Jumbo a nose ahead.

 

Grumpy Jumbo is super but Misawa was waiting in the wings and played his role really well too. This is a nod to Jumbo but it isn't like in their series Misawa was chopped liver. Still that is another ****1/2 (6/8/90), ***** (9/1/90) and ****1/4 (4/91) to put on their resume and the 1988 match was super fun too.

 

Other opponents for Jumbo include Flair, Martel, Funk, Kawada, Race, Mascaras, Slater.

 

Other opponents for Misawa include Akiyama, Taue, Doc, Morishima, Takayama, Kobayshi

 

The Flair series vs. Jumbo produced three ****+ and a ****3/4 classic in 1983. Surprisingly though, Misawa vs. AKiyama equaled the **** matches (1/98, Carny final 98, 2/27/00) and the 2/27/00 is also a ****3/4 maybe ***** affair in my book.

 

The 1976 Funk match vs. Jumbo is superb. Misawa vs. Taue is an interesting feud but the Carny 95 final is ***** and that is littered around 3-4 other **** matches they have had throughout their career.

 

Slater 80 Carny final is super, but better than 7/94 Misawa vs. Doc? They are equal at best for me.

 

The other opponents all produced a share of very good to great matches that can help pad a resume.

 

The cluster argument can go against Jumbo too. Parv/Will seem decidedly on board with the Jumbo is better than Tenryu argument. I tend to agree, but don't see it as unusual if someone prefers Tenryu. Kind of comparatively, I find Misawa a step above Kawada (who is still amazing). Kobashi is tougher to judge but my point is that all of these 5 guys will more than likely be in my top 12 when the list is all said and done. We are talking the cream of the crop with all time workers. Having them work against each other could be seen as an advantage but I don't think you are going to build a GOAT candidate around both Misawa/Jumbo in the sense that they carried opponents without pointing to other individuals.

 

My vote will probably be weighted heavily on great match theory. That may be seen as a negative for some. My opinion is that in the past couple of days I have seen individuals throw out Funk as #1 contender because he was "entertaining" in every match he was in. I have thought about that and disagree with that attitude and also think it directly slants against some of the more stoic workers that can include Jumbo before his grumpy phase and pretty much Misawa his entire career. Is Misawa going to be slinging a bull rope coming down the aisle, spaghetti leg selling and wrestling in a river, giving amazing although heavily emoting facials like Tenryu and Otani do, or even strutting around like the Nature Boy? No, he will not but I have yet to see a professional wrestler potray being the ace of a promotion with such gravity as Misawa does from 93-98 even with 2 other GWE contenders directly under him in Kawada and Kobashi. Make no mistake, MIsawa was still the man. Beyond that, you can get an entertainment in how he uses the elbow in his matches and sprinkles in his signature spots. Is it comedic or out of control that conjurers up nostalgia and larger than life personas of our chilidhood, no, but it is still entertaining to the individuals that watch the match and serve a purpose.

 

Essentially, Misawa is Batman.

[goodhelmet]

When did I say I prefer Jumbo to Tenryu?

[JerryvonKramer]

Chad, see my list here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28578-jumbo-tsuruta/page-6&do=findComment&comment=5665915

 

I think the fact that it's difficult to point to a #2 opponent for Jumbo is testament to the wide variety of different guys he was able to have good matches with.

 

Who else can say they had ****+ matches with both of the Funks, Brisco, Race, Slater, Flair, Bock, and Kerry Von Erich? And then a ton of tag matches as well.

 

The clustering argument can not really be used against Jumbo.

[goodhelmet]

I would add that you are criminally underrating the Murdoch series but I love that one more than most. Few people have dominated a territory the way Jumbo dominated All Japan in the 80s.

 

Fujinami in New Japan.... Lawler in Memphis... Jumbo in All Japan.

 

Flair carried Crockett but we haven't actually put together that list but he seems like a safe bet to be added to the above list.

Dibiase was close in Mid South. Kerry was close but not quite in Texas. Nobody dominated WCW for the 90s. Bret was on his way to doing it in the WWF but falls short. Cena has been on top wrestling mega main events since 2007 but has as many duds as he does classics. I guess Bock probably dominated 70s AWA but footage and all that. Buddy Rose dominated most of Portland but not for an entire decade.

[soup23]

Parv's rankings with my comments and point of comparison for Misawa

 

*****

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83) (****3/4 for me, comparable to vs. Akiyama 2/27/00)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu Yoshiaki Yatsu (1/28/86) (***** for me, not as good as 6/9/95, 12/6/96)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/87) (****1/2, not as good as 12/3/93, 5/21/94)
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (6/5/89) (***** and one of the best matches of all time, still slightly not as good as 6/3/94 and 1/20/97 in my opinion)
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (09/01/90) (agree on ranking, Jumbo is MVP of match)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (04/20/91) (****3/4 for me, both guys are incredible in this match)

****3/4

Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk (03/13/75) (****1/2 for me, behind something like Ogawa/Misawa vs. Burning from 3/6/99)
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Kerry Von Erich (2/3 Falls) (5/22/84) (missed this match when I did post above and it is a good case for Jumbo. KVE best match)
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (10/28/88) (****1/2 for me, on par with 7/24/95 vs. Kawada, not as good as 10/98 or 3/03 or 10/97 Misawa vs. Kobashi matches IMO)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89) (Really nifty match here, Misawa has some tags that are around the same level IMO including the late 92 Baba tag)
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (06/08/90) (****1/2 for me, monumental moment)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (09/30/90) (****3/4 for me, both guys are really damn good in the match)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (05/22/92) (need to rewatch this one again)

****1/2

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Harley Race (6/11/77) - I need to see this match
Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk (12/15/78) - Judging by your rankings it seems as though Baba/Jumbo vs. Funks is the equivalent of where I would put the Misawa/Akiyama vs. Kawada/Taue series, I will just say that I prefer the Misawa series slightly
Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Terry & Dory Funk Jr. (11/30/79)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/86) - Agree on rating, Not as good as 6/1/93
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Stan Hansen (10/21/86) - Went around ****1/4, again lateral to Misawa vs. Hansen on 5/21/93
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (10/28/88)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Kabuki & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Akira Taue (05/26/90) - Probably ****1/4 for me
Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (11/29/91) - Great, great match. Both guys shine here to me too
Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (10/07/92) - Jumbos last hurrah. I actually compare this laterally to the MVC vs. Misawa/Kawada 1/93 match that I know you weren't as keen on. Still, I would need to rewatch again but this doesn't feel miles ahead of the 1/4/09 Misawa tag to me and Misawa was great in that match.


****

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Jack Brisco (01/30/74) - Need to watch
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. (12/18/75) - Need to watch

Still, these being **** matches isn't bad but with Misawa you still have the 3/4/95 tag, the Morishima 2006 match, the Takayama 2001 match that should grade comparatively

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dick Slater (5/1/80)

I have this higher on my ranking and as notated above, see it on the level of the match vs. Doc from 7/1994

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/82)

Same ranking as you, below Carny final 95 and 9/95 Taue matches

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Nick Bockwinkel (2/23/84)

Same rating as me. I had 5/2/99 Misawa vs. Vader at same ranking too as it is a great slugfest match.

 

Genichiro Tenryu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Killer Khan & Riki Choshu (8/2/85)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Ted Dibiase (8/31/85)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (11/30/85)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada (2/26/89)

Rankings are close to yours but again Misawa had the 7/94 and 12/94 tags vs. Ace/Doc. The fuchi/Kawada vs. Misawa/Kobashi 1/94 tag, the 4/25/04 Ogawa/Misawa vs. KentaFuji tag, the 10/99 Burning vs. Misawa/Ogawa rematch tag, 12/07 Kobashi comeback tag all that I would rank above most of these.

 

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (8/31/87)

Wow, you are a bit lower on this than me. I do have this, 6/5/89, and the 10/88 as the best of the Tenryu vs. Jumbo series. I just think Kawada vs. Misawa matches up to that and IMO Kobashi vs. Misawa eclipses that.

Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara (9/15/88)
Yoshiaki Yatsu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu (1/22/89)

See tag ranking list above

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (10/19/90)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (04/20/91)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (10/15/91)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (09/04/91)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (10/15/91)
Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (06/05/92)
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (08/20/92)

 

All involve both men and at different points within the matches, I prefer Misawa (9/4/91, 6/5/92) and other times I think Jumbo is the MVP (10/19/90, 10/15/91)

 

 

So going through that exhaustive list, Jumbo was great but I still think for me where Jumbo has a top tier candidate, Misawa answers. Jumbo vs. Tenryu 6/5/89 is a better match than almost anyone in existence has ever had. That said, I prefer FOUR Misawa matches to it. Jumbo will more than likely be in my top 5, at worst top 7, but for me Misawa is king.

[soup23]

I would add that you are criminally underrating the Murdoch series but I love that one more than most. Few people have dominated a territory the way Jumbo dominated All Japan in the 80s.

 

 

I enjoyed those Murdoch matches a good deal and they finished in the middle of my All Japan ballot which still put them at **** a piece. Still think stuff like 9/93 vs. Williams and 3/92 vs. Hansen isn't too far off from them from a Misawa match perspective.

[Dylan Waco]

I voted for Misawa because I can actually tolerate watching him wrestle.

 

I wasn't going to contribute anything more to this thread but then soup took a shot at those who value being entertained so now I feel obligated.

 

I am as big a list guy as there has ever been, but I have never seen "best of ballots" as an excuse to breakout the old spread sheet and get down and dirty with math. I don't object to people doing this but I have never viewed wrestling that way, and I doubt I would be the list geek that I am if I viewed an enterprise like GWE in that fashion. To me there is nothing wrong with weighting Great Matches heavily, or even more than anything else, but I can't take seriously the argument that such a thing should be the only metric that matters. For example I don't buy the NintendoLogic "if you were great when you wanted to be you are great" argument because I have seen too many guys over the years who I thought stunk, were mediocre, et. have great matches. The idea that Warrior is a great wrestler because he had great matches a couple of times simply doesn't fly with me. Consistency matters. Being able to make the best out of the worst situation matters. Wrestling the right kind of match matters.

 

I would never vote Funk number one if his sole positive was that he was always entertaining (if that was the standard JT Smith would be in my top five). Nor would I vote Misawa or Jumbo number one if they came out on top in a game of count the snowflakes. To me the individual performance matters. This isn't a "who had the most great matches?" project, it's a "who was the greatest wrestler ever" project. They might be the same person when all is said and done but I don't think they HAVE to be the same person.

 

To keep this somewhat topical, Misawa was a guy that immediately jumped off the page the first time I saw him. I had been reading about AJPW on the internet and in the Torch and despite his stoic nature, I connected with him immediately. I still think the 96 tag league final is the best match I've ever seen, and the majority of the commonly cited Misawa classics felt that way to me and deserved that mantle. I do not like NOAH Misawa nearly as much as some, and he was in arguably the most disappointing match I've ever seen (v. Hase), but by and large he was someone who lived up to the hype. Jumbo to me is the god that failed. I had seen a decent amount of Jumbo before he started being touted by a large contingent as the GOAT and never thought much of him. Not to say I thought he was bad, but he never felt like a guy at that level. As the hype around him built I watched tons of Jumbo and concluded that while he was definitely a great wrestler, he was a guy who's individual performances rarely connected with me. I'm not sure it's entirely fair to call him sterile and emotionless, but he often came across that way. Going back and watching everything for the best of AJPW in the 80s I left with largely the same feeling - undeniably great wrestler, but one who only excited me if he was in there with certain guys. I don't buy Phil's line that he's the Japanese Terry Taylor, but I kind of do think of him as the Japanese Chris Benoit (not that way), in that he's a great worker, who churned out a lot of high end matches, but I lacked the emotional investment in his matches that I want out of an all timer.

 

As an aside I will note that I think the argument that Cena has as many duds as he does classics is a massive exaggeration. While it is true that he has had the massive disadvantage of being the top guy in the most saturated era of all time (and yes I think the volume of good matches hurts guys like Cena, Rey, et. in many ways because those matches are seen as throwaway now because of how common place they are), and as a result has had some stinkers, I don't see the huge list of bottom feeding bouts that Will apparently does.

 

Also you can add Colon to Will's master list of guys who dominated promotions if that is something that you put a lot of value in.

[soup23]

I voted for Misawa because I can actually tolerate watching him wrestle.

 

I wasn't going to contribute anything more to this thread but then soup took a shot at those who value being entertained so now I feel obligated.

 

I am as big a list guy as there has ever been, but I have never seen "best of ballots" as an excuse to breakout the old spread sheet and get down and dirty with math. I don't object to people doing this but I have never viewed wrestling that way, and I doubt I would be the list geek that I am if I viewed an enterprise like GWE in that fashion. To me there is nothing wrong with weighting Great Matches heavily, or even more than anything else, but I can't take seriously the argument that such a thing should be the only metric that matters. For example I don't buy the NintendoLogic "if you were great when you wanted to be you are great" argument because I have seen too many guys over the years who I thought stunk, were mediocre, et. have great matches. The idea that Warrior is a great wrestler because he had great matches a couple of times simply doesn't fly with me. Consistency matters. Being able to make the best out of the worst situation matters. Wrestling the right kind of match matters.

 

I would never vote Funk number one if his sole positive was that he was always entertaining (if that was the standard JT Smith would be in my top five). Nor would I vote Misawa or Jumbo number one if they came out on top in a game of count the snowflakes. To me the individual performance matters. This isn't a "who had the most great matches?" project, it's a "who was the greatest wrestler ever" project. They might be the same person when all is said and done but I don't think they HAVE to be the same person.

 

To keep this somewhat topical, Misawa was a guy that immediately jumped off the page the first time I saw him. I had been reading about AJPW on the internet and in the Torch and despite his stoic nature, I connected with him immediately. I still think the 96 tag league final is the best match I've ever seen, and the majority of the commonly cited Misawa classics felt that way to me and deserved that mantle. I do not like NOAH Misawa nearly as much as some, and he was in arguably the most disappointing match I've ever seen (v. Hase), but by and large he was someone who lived up to the hype. Jumbo to me is the god that failed. I had seen a decent amount of Jumbo before he started being touted by a large contingent as the GOAT and never thought much of him. Not to say I thought he was bad, but he never felt like a guy at that level. As the hype around him built I watched tons of Jumbo and concluded that while he was definitely a great wrestler, he was a guy who's individual performances rarely connected with me. I'm not sure it's entirely fair to call him sterile and emotionless, but he often came across that way. Going back and watching everything for the best of AJPW in the 80s I left with largely the same feeling - undeniably great wrestler, but one who only excited me if he was in there with certain guys. I don't buy Phil's line that he's the Japanese Terry Taylor, but I kind of do think of him as the Japanese Chris Benoit (not that way), in that he's a great worker, who churned out a lot of high end matches, but I lacked the emotional investment in his matches that I want out of an all timer.

 

As an aside I will note that I think the argument that Cena has as many duds as he does classics is a massive exaggeration. While it is true that he has had the massive disadvantage of being the top guy in the most saturated era of all time (and yes I think the volume of good matches hurts guys like Cena, Rey, et. in many ways because those matches are seen as throwaway now because of how common place they are), and as a result has had some stinkers, I don't see the huge list of bottom feeding bouts that Will apparently does.

 

Also you can add Colon to Will's master list of guys who dominated promotions if that is something that you put a lot of value in.

 

 

Entertainment is subjective was all that I was trying to accomplish. I was entertained watching the Carnival 94 final night 6 man that Misawa was in. It was a *BETTER* match than the Hansen vs. Funk lake match from 1990. Still, that lake spot is infinitely more memorable than anything in the previous 6 man so I think at points the notion is to say that Funk/Hansen/Flair whoever gets the nod as a worker. I think from an entertainment standpoint from the traditional aesthetics that you usually view that stuff by, Misawa fares worse off than any of your other top tier candidates with the exception of maybe Jumbo and Santo. I agree that great match theory shouldn't be the only parameter, but I do also see merit in comparing apples to apples in great matches among like individuals. When i get to the top 10-15 of my list (Funk will be in here, Hansen could be my #2 honestly), that seems like a way for me to really seperate the minutia effectively.

 

 

"Being able to make the best out of the worst situation matters. Wrestling the right kind of match matters."

 

This on the surface is an interesting debate to really saturate. Especially the first part. It is tough to say that Misawa had that many "bad" situations given that he was in there with other super workers for most of his career and presented as the ace. Still, think about how many others that failed when pushed to the top at that level. Jumbo giving him the nod was a great and selfless thing in that moment, but Jumbo got the lion share of victories in the aftermath and Misawa still prevailed in the wake of the Jumbo era as the ace of the promotion to carry it forward. In addition, in both Kawada matches were Misawa broke his orbital bone and Kawada hurt his forearm, they both push forward and had a great match as a result.

 

Wrestling the right kind of match is also another debate that could evoke all sorts of things such as Misawa doing too many headdrops or not passing the torch effectively to someone else.

[goc]

As an aside I will note that I think the argument that Cena has as many duds as he does classics is a massive exaggeration. While it is true that he has had the massive disadvantage of being the top guy in the most saturated era of all time (and yes I think the volume of good matches hurts guys like Cena, Rey, et. in many ways because those matches are seen as throwaway now because of how common place they are), and as a result has had some stinkers, I don't see the huge list of bottom feeding bouts that Will apparently does.

 

 

I didn't want to derail a thread about Jumbo vs. Misawa by talking about Cena but I definitely felt this way too. I'm not sure who else you could compare him to at having to put out so many widely viewed main event matches so close together. Most of the other guys had the advantage of having more time to build to a main event than like 2 or 3 weeks. Admittedly Cena has had some off nights but some of that also has to do with the fact that there is just no emotional investment in some of his stuff because it was just thrown together or he's stuck wrestling someone who shouldn't be in the main event with him.

[Childs]

I would rather watch peak Misawa than peak Jumbo, but Jumbo was great for longer and in a wider variety of roles. I'd say dawho5's initial post undersells Jumbo's athleticism and offensive capabilities. In a '70s context, young Jumbo was a remarkable specimen, reeling off highspots few contemporary big men would have contemplated. In fact, one of his major advantages is that he developed more quickly than Misawa, who was often a mess as Tiger Mask. I also like pissed off elder Jumbo more than old Misawa, who was sort of forced to remain the NOAH ace against his better judgement. All of that said, it's hard to vote against the Misawa of '94-'98, who embodied his role so beautifully and peaked as maybe the greatest offensive wrestler ever. if anything, he ruled All Japan more absolutely than Jumbo did in the '80s and created more compelling rivalries out of his reign.

 

I don't know, haven't decided on this one yet.

[JAC]

I would rather watch peak Misawa than peak Jumbo, but Jumbo was great for longer and in a wider variety of roles.

 

This exactly. These are two of my absolute favourites, but Jumbo's peak is basically his entire career. That's hard to beat.

 

As Childs indicated, Misawa is very hit & miss throughout the 80's. Looking back on his Tiger Mask work, he is a solid performer, but prior to his unmasking, there's not very much to signal that he'll be a future legend. Upon unmasking, he is rapidly elevated from mid-card to main event and rise to the challenge nicely. That said, from May 1990 until sometime in 1993 (maybe around the time of the Champions Carnival), he seems to be finding his way and evolving into the wrestler he was meant to be. I suppose I would include these years as being peak years, but there's a lot of growth during that time. By 1993, he seems to have settled on his in ring repertoire, discarding some moves while adding others, and developing his own signature style. When watching Misawa wrestle Jumbo, while the matches are excellent, one doesn't have a sense that Misawa's wrestling his style of match. It's a Jumbo match. By 1993, Misawa comes across as being fully formed as a wrestler.

 

Misawa's peak is incredible (unparalleled, in my opinion), although it's hard to determine when ends. I know that many people are critical of the head-dropping style that came to be predominate in All Japan, but I think that Misawa continues to have a very sold output until the exodus of 2000. I consider the beginning of NOAH to be the beginning of Misawa's post-peak. That leaves him with about nine years of post-peak performances. I'm not a big fan of NOAH, and I don't think the matches have aged all that well. Nonetheless, despite his body breaking down quite badly, Misawa did have a number of good to great performances during this time, included the well regard GHC match with Kobashi. I really like his final match with Kawada at the 2005 Tokyo Dome show (probably more than most).

 

In contrast, Jumbo looks like a top worker from the moment he makes video tape. He was counted on to be the No. 2 native in All Japan pretty much from his Japanese debut. He appears to be one of the super workers of the 1970's (although he's helped out by the fact that more tape exists of All Japan and New Japan in the 1970's than basically anywhere else). Nonetheless, from what I've seen, he's entered his peak years by 1976 if not sooner. Over the next 15 years, he evolves as the dominate style of wrestling in his promotion chances, excelling all throughout. He's still going strong by the time his peak ends as a result of Hepatitis in late '92.

 

Technically, Jumbo has a post-peak from the time he returns from his hepatitis-related sabbatical until his last match in 1998, but as far as I can recall, he did not work a full-time schedule. I believe he only works some comedy 6-man matches at the big shows. Thus, his post-peak is limited to a handful of matches that are not presented as anything to be taken seriously. The end result is a remarkably long prime that composes almost the entirety of his career, especially if one goes by the number of matches wrestled.

 

I'll have a bit more to say later on some other aspects of the comparison, but I can't help but think that Jumbo looks good for not being weighed down by having a mediocre pre- or post-peak period, unlike so many other great workers.

 

Haven't voted yet, but leaning strongly in favour of Jumbo. He's a solid contender for my No. 1 (if I were to vote). Misawa's probably somewhere below him in my Top 5, maybe as high as No. 2.

[Jetlag]

 

Right now, when I'm up to 1993 in my AJ watching, it's Jumbo and easily.

Ask me again when I've finished with the 90s. It's going to be very very hard for Misawa to topple Jumbo, but it's not impossible.

I think ultimately, Jumbo will win because he worked over 3-4 different eras and excelled in every style, whereas Misawa it seems to me only mastered one style.

Jumbo had great matches against every NWA champion of the 1970s in both singles and tags, I've not yet seen his matches with Robinson or The Destroyer. He was great in the early 80s vs. Flair. He was great in the late 80s first vs. Choshu / Yatsu, then vs. Tenryu and co. He was great as Grumpy Jumbo in the early 90s vs. Misawa and co. Four eras, four styles, four distinct sets of opponents, and he was great vs. all of them. And this is without taking little things like his AWA matches into account. At the moment Jumbo for quality and quantity and variety of oppoonents over time is the only guy I see as being comparible to Ric Flair. So that's why they are my #1 and #2 (final order still to be determined).

 

I am... not really buying into any of that. It looks a lot like cherry picking to me. You might aswell argue Baba was better than Misawa like this. Is stuff like Funk vs. Jumbo or Briscoe vs. Jumbo really fodder for Jumbo as a great worker when it's the the vets doing the bulk of the work? Calling Jumbo a master at the 70s style seems like an overstatement... he was good at it but could also be real dull at times. Don't think he was significantly better than his peers in the 80s. Not as exciting as Choshu and definitely consistent on the same level as Tenryu. His strong point would be the section after Tenryu leaves where he works with Misawa and the kids... strong work but I'm not sure it elevates him to Flair levels. I can't think of any instance of Jumbo having a great match with a mediocre opponent ala Flair. Consistency is his issue... most Flair matches were disappointing, so were most Hansen bouts. Etc.

 

This is not saying Jumbo is bad. But I'm not even a huge Misawa fan, and looking at the matches Misawa obliterates Jumbo, in my opinion. And it's not like Jumbo's edge in versatility is that big - Misawa has shown he can go hold for hold in matches against Hansen.

[Wade Garrett]

Don't want to take this thread off course but I have two questions and don't know if it's worthy of it's own topic. Sorry if it's wrong to ask this in such a great topic.

 

Does anyone prefer and/or think Tenryu was better then Tsuruta?

 

Does anyone prefer and/or think Fujinami was better then Tsuruta?

[soup23]

Don't want to take this thread off course but I have two questions and don't know if it's worthy of it's own topic. Sorry if it's wrong to ask this in such a great topic.

 

Does anyone prefer and/or think Tenryu was better then Tsuruta?

 

Does anyone prefer and/or think Fujinami was better then Tsuruta?

 

 

I know one person...cue Dylan's music

 

Fujinami is someone I wrestle with in this project. I have seen the heralded 1980's stuff and think he is really great in it. His 1979-1980 stuff especially he really mixed it up well with a variety of guys including Dynamite Kid, Ron Star, and Steve Kiern. Once he jumps to heavyweight, he has the Choshu series and a bevy of other great stuff throughout the decade vs. UWF guys, Vader, etc.

 

The big knock on him will come in his 1990's output. He has had some good stuff in there but obviously isn't what he used to be and to compare to someone like Misawa's NOAH run, I think Misawa's NOAH run has much more quality output.

 

Considering all of that, when looking at the top matches, I prefer Jumbo and think Jumbo does also have consistency on his side. 1980-1989 may be close for some but Jumbo's 1990-1993 blows Fujinami out of the water.

 

For me I see Jumbo as a top 5 candidate and Fujinami as a top 15.

 

Tenryu is a much tougher case. Parv genuinely didn't like Tenryu until 1987 or so when he went out on his own. I enjoyed Tenryu before then and can point to the Ted 1983 match, the Choshu singles (better than Jumbo singles vs. Choshu IMO) and the tag matches teaming with Jumbo where I thought Tenryu held his own. Beyond his AJPW split, you then have the absolute mountain of Tenryu stuff from a variety of different eras and performers in Japan. Whether it was having very good matches with Takano, being an absolute beast in the WAR vs. NJ feud or being a grumpy prick in NOAH, Tenryu really runs the gambit and has 20+ years of great matches you can point to. I don't think this is quite as impressive as you might think on the surface. Misawa's match vs. Jumbo in 88 is **** and 1/4/09 from the Dome is **** for me for instance, but it does count for something.

[Childs]

 

Tenryu is a much tougher case. Parv genuinely didn't like Tenryu until 1987 or so when he went out on his own. I enjoyed Tenryu before then and can point to the Ted 1983 match, the Choshu singles (better than Jumbo singles vs. Choshu IMO) and the tag matches teaming with Jumbo where I thought Tenryu held his own. Beyond his AJPW split, you then have the absolute mountain of Tenryu stuff from a variety of different eras and performers in Japan. Whether it was having very good matches with Takano, being an absolute beast in the WAR vs. NJ feud or being a grumpy prick in NOAH, Tenryu really runs the gambit and has 20+ years of great matches you can point to. I don't think this is quite as impressive as you might think on the surface. Misawa's match vs. Jumbo in 88 is **** and 1/4/09 from the Dome is **** for me for instance, but it does count for something.

 

What's staggering to me about Tenryu is not the span between his first great match and his last but the fact he was a consistently great worker--one of the best in Japan--in his 50s. Not to be morbid about it but neither Misawa nor Jumbo even lived to 50. On the other hand, Tenryu wasn't really good until he was about 35. He was a guy who really needed to nail down his persona before he could flourish. If I end up ranking him ahead of Misawa and/or Jumbo, it will be out of appreciation for the power of that character he created. His career says something about all the non-physical things you can do to be great at this particular craft.

[Wade Garrett]

Thanks for the responses guys.

[goodhelmet]

We'll explore Tenryu and Fujinami down the road. And Wade, feel free to create any topic you want. If we need to merge or edit, we will.

[jdw]

Jumbo.

 

Misawa has a shorter window of being interesting to me: roughly 1990-96.

 

The 1990-92 if more interesting for character development than his actual work: Jumbo, Kawada and Kobashi are more interesting workers in the period, and all have their own character development which is as interesting in their own ways as Misawa's (with the exception of Kobashi's which is pretty standard). 1993-96 is prime Misawa where the work and character hit their stride, ending with winning the TC back from Kobashi to start the next year. After that he increasingly bored the fuck out of me and frustrated me to no end in the direction he was taking / allowing the work to go in. Matches that I thought we interesting at the time, like the 6/97 match with Kawada, have been painful to watch within the past ten years. We can all point to the NOAH stuff as driving us nuts, but I got there in real time long before that point. The 80s stuff has long since been uninteresting.

 

In contrast, I've found Jumbo interesting as early as 1973, and as late as 1992. Even in October of 1992 when he was almost certainly "unwell", there is something compelling and interesting about his performances in the last two TV matches that matter. There are a ton in between.

 

Not really a "star calculator" thing. I find Jumbo's two performances against Wahoo that we have to be more interesting than Misawa & Kobashi churning out another ****1/2 match, even if the Jumbo-Wahoo matches aren't ****+, or might not even get to *** if I cared to put snowflakes on them.

[ohtani's jacket]

To me, Misawa worked at a higher level than Jumbo and had much more complex and sophisticated matches. I've never seen a selling performance from Jumbo comparable to Misawa at his best.

[Badlittlekitten]

The way Dylan feels about Jumbo is pretty much how I feel about Misawa. I find Jumbo with his fist pumping and goofy 'aahhh's kind of endearing. Temperamental Jumbo taking shortcuts against the young guns is supremely 'entertaining' to me. Misawa works stiff sure, but I've never felt that state of urgency and violence with him. He's quite an unremarkable looking bloke with his belly and wretched green tights.

 

Misawa appears plenty of times in my greatest match list. But looking over the entrys I struggle to remember any moments that stood out in them or emotions stirred up.

[NintendoLogic]

I think ultimately, Jumbo will win because he worked over 3-4 different eras and excelled in every style, whereas Misawa it seems to me only mastered one style.

 

Jumbo had great matches against every NWA champion of the 1970s in both singles and tags, I've not yet seen his matches with Robinson or The Destroyer. He was great in the early 80s vs. Flair. He was great in the late 80s first vs. Choshu / Yatsu, then vs. Tenryu and co. He was great as Grumpy Jumbo in the early 90s vs. Misawa and co. Four eras, four styles, four distinct sets of opponents, and he was great vs. all of them. And this is without taking little things like his AWA matches into account. At the moment Jumbo for quality and quantity and variety of oppoonents over time is the only guy I see as being comparible to Ric Flair. So that's why they are my #1 and #2 (final order still to be determined).

 

These are more or less my thoughts exactly. This is a tough call for me, since I have these guys 1-2 on my all-time list. The way I see it, in-ring performance can be broken down into three categories: great matches, versatility, and longevity. I rate Jumbo the GOAT because he's the only wrestler who excels in all three categories. All of Misawa's success was in a single style, although in fairness, it was the most mentally and physically demanding style ever devised. That fact, along with the sheer volume of all-time classics, has Misawa securely in the #2 spot on my list.

 

Also, I think Misawa was clearly Jumbo's #2 opponent, maybe even #1. 6/5/89 is probably better than any Jumbo/Misawa singles match, but all those classic six-mans can't be denied.