Fair for Flair: a mini-series

[Childs]

Apologies for this stray thought, but Manami Toyota (whom I often dislike as a worker) displayed the most amazing cardio of any wrestler I've seen. I'd put Flair in the upper ranks with Kobashi, Danielson and some others.

[Dylan Waco]

I listened to part one and mostly enjoyed it even though there were objections I had throughout, and one much bigger principled objection that I won't go into right now.

 

I will say that the strategy discussion sounded like a couple of PWI writers getting together and trying to organize their thoughts on how to approach an article dealing with Flair's talents in a kayfabe context. I really enjoyed it, even if I left entirely convinced that the bulk of the argument was about what the hosts read into Flair's performances, and not Flair's intent.

[WingedEagle]

Why does intent matter?

[Dylan Waco]

It doesn't (necessarily).,

[jdw]

It does is one is projecting onto the performance, rather than being realistic about it.

[JerryvonKramer]

Listening to Flair on his show, there are times when he talks about work or working with other guys where he seems to show real awareness of psychology and strategy, but we only get glimpses because he tends to prefer to keep things more upbeat or gets onto a different track.

 

I was thinking listening to a recent one when he was throwing out his habitual hatred of working in Kansas going an hour with Rufus R. Jones or Bulldog Bob Brown whether any of those kinds of matches made tape. Might be interesting to sit and watch something like that. I think Flair sees the first duty as ensuring that the fans who paid money to come to see him are entertained and come away wanting to see him again. I also think, as I said somewhere (maybe on part 4, not yet uploaded), that that ability to go an hour with a total stiff can't be sold short. It's an asset and something only a handful of workers could do.

 

But against more skilled opponents you will see Flair break out other ideas. Someone mentioned the Undertaker in 92, Flair probably saw him as a stiff and gave him the Sting / Nikita treatment. But there are so many other opponents who don't get out into that match. And you know the one I mean.

 

Just seems a bit strange to assume that the intent is not there. How do you know the intent is there with Misawa or any other guy?

 

-----

 

Brain, you asked about WWF run in terms of work, and I think Flair was booked and worked very weak in that promotion. But pretty much all heels were. Even guys like DiBiase and Savage would squeak wins against the Koko B. Wares of this world, but WWF was a babyface company, where every heel was a bitch. Lawler worked the same way in 93.

 

Any heel that wasn't a monster was a chickenshit, and they didn't make an exception for Flair. Although you could say the Rumble win out him over pretty huge.

 

I have wondered if the reason they ended up programming him with Savage and then Bret is because Vince might have thought the average fan wouldn't have bought him as a legit threat to Hogan.

 

Whatever the case, I agree with you that in general he'd had his offense nerfed in WWF, and got his ass kicked a lot.

[thebrainfollower]

Hmmm not sure I agree with that. They might squeak out a win but they took more than half the match. Even against Hogan, Savage and Dibiase took more than half the match.

[thebrainfollower]

And Lawler in 93 was brought in as a joke that was gonna get crushed. Flair was brought it as the heel GOAT and acted like a punk. He failed to adapt to his role in ring.

[The Man in Blak]

Sean Waltman mentioned on the latest Austin podcast that he felt Flair was the greatest champion of all time, but he also felt that being the greatest champion was still a different category from being the greatest performer; I feel like that concept really plays into the discussion of Flair's idiosyncrasies in the first episode (and discussions about Flair's career as a whole).

 

I don't know that I buy Sleaze's "perpetual motion" argument as a satisfying explanation to some of these familiar spots, especially when you expand the parameters of the discussion to analyze his work within a larger context of his entire career. (How many times did those tactics still lead to Flair losing the match? Why did he continue to incorporate these spots later on in his career when he didn't have the same cardiovascular advantage over his opponents?)

 

That said, I think the discussion helped illuminate both why Flair was an incredibly effective champion (particularly in the territory days where those idiosyncrasies might not be so easily over-exposed) and why his capabilities as champion didn't necessarily guarantee a great match, even if it raised the baseline of most of his defenses to being "merely" good.

[funkdoc]

re: the cardio thing, i'll throw out tamura as potentially the best ever. but he's a shootstyle guy so he wouldn't be on parv's radar, which i totally understand.

[Childs]

re: the cardio thing, i'll throw out tamura as potentially the best ever. but he's a shootstyle guy so he wouldn't be on parv's radar, which i totally understand.

 

That's a great call.

[JerryvonKramer]

I have watched several Tamura matches, as it happens.

[Superstar Sleeze]

 

 

In your second point, you make two and maybe even three conflicting arguments. At one point, you are saying Flair put no thought into it. Then you are saying we were interpreting it like HHH or HBK and overreaching. Then you follow up with just because it is logical it is not entertaining. So was Flair being logical? Was he just accidentally being logical? What do HHH/HBK have to do with any of this? I have no clue what you are saying in that point.

You're reading too much into it. That's where the storytelling comparison stems from. Yes, I said Flair put no thought into "strategy". I'm not saying Flair didn't put any thought into his matches, I'm saying he didn't put any thought into creating the illusion of strategy. It's a very simple and consistent argument.

 

Flair clearly put thought into his strategy otherwise why would he consistently do it just because he does not always articulate well does not mean he did think it out. His strategy was to break the rhythm of his opponents by going to the ropes, using short strikes, crowding his opponent in the corner and using other shortcuts. When the babyface succeeded overcoming this "perpetual motion" offense, he looked better for it and earned his shine/comeback. When Flair ultimately transitioned to heat, he was looked like a cheapshot artist increasing his own heat. By being able to explain it, it shows a strong grasp of heel psychology. This is not a HHH or HBK grandiose cinematic vision of pro wrestling. With a lot of dramatic pauses and overwrought moments. This is a quick-paced, real sports look at pro wrestling. So I don't get the HHH/HBK comparison at all.

That's just an analysis of the layout of Flair's matches. Your argument is good but your phrasing is ridiculous.

 

I don't understand point 3. Bockwinkel is a great wrestler. I need to digest him more. Are you complaining that we perceive people to think limb selling/matwork = psychology?

Yes.

 

Flair has far away the best cardio conditioning of any wrestler I have ever seen. Watch Clash VI and tell me that's basically not a 54 or 56 minute sprint. Flair's cardio is insane. The All Japan guys every rarely in SINGLES ever moved at higher speed than Flair. I could see your point in tags, not singles. Speed is not everything in terms of cardio. The Dragon Gate guys move fast, but to do it at Flair's level against a Luger or Kerry for 30-45 minutes. That's next level.

I watched a bunch of his matches vs the Von Erichs and his matches vs Luger (one you gave five stars and one Parv gave five stars) and I honestly can't come up with a better response other than "lol" I'm sorry. The Windham matches were more workrate-y but also largely uninspiring, even in that department. I just saw matches that went long. I'm sure I'll rewatch the Steamboat matches six years from now and offer something constructive regarding them.

 

I now understand your first point better. I disagree and we are at an impasse. I believe that when you look at Flair's offense it all connects in a cohesive fashion that plays to his strengths and is underpinned by smart heel psychology.

 

Yes, my phrasing is bombastic, but don't mistake that for a lack of earnestness. I grew up with pro wrestling so a lot of my love for the grandiose and over the top stems from that. I do tend to go overboard with my love for the beauty of the English language.

 

I think that is a real perception fostered by Scott Keith and the like. I think it is clearly very basic. I am also not saying everyone thinks that way.

 

I am not terribly sure you will offer anything constructive regarding the Steamboat matches since you failed to do it with the matches beforehand. I don't mind if you don't like the Flair vs Luger matches or Flair vs Windham. It would be nice to know what you did not like about them besides they were long and workrate-y/but not that workrate-y. Feel free to make some constructive points and I will engage you on them.

 

To The Man in Black:

 

The uptempo, perpetual motion style is high risk-high reward strategy. You are essentially creating chaos in a match through movement and sometime your opponent will take advantage of this. More often than not, Flair would come out ahead as champion. This style of wrestling could be liken to over-levered financial institution like Bear Stearns or Lehman Brothers. Running at a high debt to asset ratio is a high risk, high reward strategy that eventually led to catastrophe, I think that is what we saw with Flair in the 90s into the 2000s with his style ultimately catching up with him.

 

Thanks for the comments!

[GOTNW]

 

I am not terribly sure you will offer anything constructive regarding the Steamboat matches since you failed to do it with the matches beforehand. I don't mind if you don't like the Flair vs Luger matches or Flair vs Windham. It would be nice to know what you did not like about them besides they were long and workrate-y/but not that workrate-y. Feel free to make some constructive points and I will engage you on them.

I really have no desire to argue about the quality of those matches and it wouldn't get us anywhere(and my point was never about their quality fyi). I just don't see what's so impressive about Flair's stamina in them that makes it unmatched in wrestling history.

 

 

 

 

[JerryvonKramer]

I am going to review two hour-long matches on an upcoming All-Japan Excite Series. None of the guys involved cut the same pace as Steamboat and Flair did in Clash 6. That is impressive conditioning by anyone's standards.

 

After reading some of GOTNW's reviews before though, he's just a guy I'm afraid I have to write off completely. I just can't take him seriously. He might do the same to me, but whatever.

[ohtani's jacket]

re: the cardio thing, i'll throw out tamura as potentially the best ever. but he's a shootstyle guy so he wouldn't be on parv's radar, which i totally understand.

 

This may be true, but Tamura wrestled once a month and spent the rest of the time training.

[Goodear]

In discussing Flair's strategy from a kayfabe perspective, I just don't see how getting thrown around so much is a deliberate choice on his part to push the action. I think it fails the eye test in that regard and falls into the same problem with guys always trying to powerbomb Kidman or always trying to throw a clothesline at Cena after eating two shoulder blocks. You are forcing guys to do stuff they don't normally do and I think that's weak one-sided storytelling.

 

I do however think a lot of strategy from Flair's perspective comes from him baiting hooks and looking for openings. He lives more on the edges of matches where he is more likely to try to sneak out a win than get a 'dominant' pinfall where he knocks a guy out for three. The beg off into an eye poke and the short knee are great examples of this tendency. I don't find his finishes to be particularly great though and think he's much more about the journey than the destination (unlike say Bret Hart who I find to have better finishes despite a similar roll up propensity).

 

Back to Flair's work however and the 'body shot' nature of the chops. I feel like you could make this point better if there were more concrete examples of Flair wearing guys down but I feel like there isn't a lot of difference in minute 10 from minute 20 with Flair other than the amount of lift in Flair's hair. He is a great corner worker though and probably the best in the world at that (my other contender would be Bobby Eaton FYI).

[JerryvonKramer]

Re: forcing guys to do stuff they don't normally do, this point is a little moot if the worker is not all that good. If they are good then Flair is literally giving them a showcase for all of their offense. The storytelling is only "one-sided" in cases where Flair is doing a carry job. Again, this would be a point I'll make in part 4, but if all of Flair's matches were with a select group of elite workers, no one would be saying any of this stuff about him. You are literally using his ability to be a "broomstick worker" back against him, which is just ass backwards.

[BigBadMick]

When are the rest of the series dropping, Parv?

[JerryvonKramer]

Tonight. But late.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also, just a reminder about this:

 

Anyone who really wants to come on to debate this can on an unscheduled part 5. Pre-requisites are listening to all the arguments and engaging specific points. There really would be no point in it otherwise. I'd bring in someone as impartial moderator.

 

Deadline for PMs: Friday, October 9th.

Number of PMs so far: ZERO.

[goc]

I nominate jdw because listening to you argue with each other would be an immediate download for me.

[Goodear]

Re: forcing guys to do stuff they don't normally do, this point is a little moot if the worker is not all that good. If they are good then Flair is literally giving them a showcase for all of their offense. The storytelling is only "one-sided" in cases where Flair is doing a carry job. Again, this would be a point I'll make in part 4, but if all of Flair's matches were with a select group of elite workers, no one would be saying any of this stuff about him. You are literally using his ability to be a "broomstick worker" back against him, which is just ass backwards.

 

I would suggest that Flair was far more likely to work his 'broomstick' match against everyone except long term veterans who would actively push him out of his comfort zone (Garvin, Funk, Steamboat) which to me stands in the way of the concept of wrestling being a cooperative project where two people 'dance' together in order to put together the best match. Flair can come off like a pole dancer where the other person is not allowed to add anything of their own to the performance.

[JerryvonKramer]

So to get this right, you'd like to see a green Nikita Koloff in 85 have more of a say on calling the match?

[JerryvonKramer]

Also the idea that Flair wasn't 100% in his comfort zone working Broadways with Steamer, Mid-Atlantic chop fests with Garvin or brawls with Funk demonstrates a startling lack of understanding. I'm sorry but it just does.