Which luchadores are you ranking?

[Childs]

If you're suggesting Kobashi had no personality and wasn't clearly a babyface, that's just crazy. It's hard to imagine a wrestler who worked in bigger, brighter strokes.

[JerryvonKramer]

I also think about the career of Chris Benoit and wonder at that statement.

 

If you're suggesting Kobashi had no personality and wasn't clearly a babyface, that's just crazy. It's hard to imagine a wrestler who worked in bigger, brighter strokes.

Someone told me a while back that Vince did try to get Kobashi several times.

[Badlittlekitten]

Kobashi's the exception.

[Badlittlekitten]

Doubt Benoit would've been as over in the WWF as WCW. In fact he wasn't.

[JerryvonKramer]

Doubt Benoit would've been as over in the WWF as WCW. In fact he wasn't.

Are you sure?

 

[goc]

I also think about the career of Chris Benoit and wonder at that statement.

The 2000s crowds were a whole different beast than the mid-90s crowd though. And definitely different than the late 90s crowds that were used to crash TV and really short matches. I'm not convinced the 90s All Japan crew would have gotten over in the WWF at the same time period they were tearing it up in All Japan at least not without a lot of style adjustment. Outside of Kobashi probably.

 

Benoit got tryouts with WWF before he signed with WCW but I seem to remember the blurbs about them in the WON was that his matches got no reaction.

[Cap]

I also think about the career of Chris Benoit and wonder at that statement.

 

If you're suggesting Kobashi had no personality and wasn't clearly a babyface, that's just crazy. It's hard to imagine a wrestler who worked in bigger, brighter strokes.

Someone told me a while back that Vince did try to get Kobashi several times.

 

This just made my brain overload and stop working all together.

[Badlittlekitten]

WWF crowds were pretty quite for Benoit. Even after the 2004 push he wasn't as over as somebody in that position usually is.

 

Not sure Benoits a good comparison anyway. His sheer physical charisma blows away the Misawas of the world.

[Loss]

There are stories in 1997 of the WWF being interested in Kobashi, yes.

[ohtani's jacket]

I've struggled also to find intelligent debate about Lucha merits. Every single criticism I made around loose work, choreography, sudden and abrupt pinfalls, extremely rushed 2/3 match structure and so on was met typically with some version of "you're an idiot, you don't understand the style". There may be reasons around that, whatever they are, but you also have to expect a little bit of kickback if you are going to write off 90s AJ or 80s NWA, probably the two most popular styles among hardcore fans.

 

I still think after this that there's a lot of "this is awesome and you suck if you don't like it" in the Lucha discourse and to me that tone seems discouraging. People who don't get it are pretty much disinclined or worse scared to speak up about it and those who do get it used as a club to get beaten on the head with forever more.

 

Are you seriously on this kick again? If you look through my blog or Matt's stuff at Segunda Caida you will find plenty of criticism of lucha bouts. It's hard to tell at this point whether your hang up is with lucha itself or the fact that anyone could possibly enjoy it. The one thing I'll say is that you've taken a top down approach to lucha where you're struggling to understand why the top matches are praised so much whereas some of the bigger fans around here have watched a metric shitload of lucha and have a different feel for why match XYZ is the best in its style. Dylan referred to it recently as immersing yourself in a style. It doesn't mean you'll come to the same conclusions as everybody else, but it's the only key to unlocking the style.

 

In years gone by, people used to talk about how you needed "lucha eyes" when watching stuff from Mexico. I believe this was a Meltzer talking point because he really struggled with lucha in the 80s and early 90s up until the AAA boom where he really got into the live shows and the business side of things began to fascinate him. That may be the kind of "zone" Pete was referring to. I feel the same way about Joshi. You need to get into the rhythm of what it is you're watching and that's sometimes difficult when you're watching a one-off match on a random day of the week. "Lucha eyes" was rejected by hardcores because it's annoying and slightly derogatory. Do I use a different brain when I watch lucha? I guess so. I know what to expect and what not to expect. I know what I want to see and what I don't like. But I never think: "oh, you'd never see that in a US ring or this would never get over in Japan." I actually think that's complete bollocks because for a long time tweaked lucha libre in the form of Psicosis vs. Mysterio Jr. was considered one of the greatest openers in PPV history, and you only have to look at Tiger Mask or Mil Mascaras to see that Japanese audiences were enchanted by lucha even if there was an element of exoticism to it.

 

I really don't get why you can't reject lucha wholesale. I mean you say you like Casas and Cota but it's not like you're using them as a hook to really explore lucha. Everybody starts with a favourite worker and works from there. Then they figure out that they like this type of lucha but not that and so on. I don't think there's anyone who likes every type of lucha, and I don't know where these "rah rah lucha" types are hanging out. Look at all those luchadores dropping like flies in the countdown. It's just not that popular.

[Loss]

Am I right that your point, JvK, is that there is no balanced critique of people like Casas and Satanico in the same way there is Flair and Kobashi?

[goc]

Am I right that your point, JvK, is that there is no balanced critique of people like Casas and Satanico in the same way there is Flair and Kobashi?

I don't feel you can really compare it because so few people in hardcore internet circles have really done a deep dive on Casas & Satanico as compared to Flair & Kobashi. Flair's status as the consensus "GOAT" was something that was happening in real time and same thing with Kobashi. There were large numbers of people watching the same matches at the same time.

 

With Casas and Satanico, Satanico especially, it's all pretty much separate people at different times looking back at old footage. Lucha tape trading didn't seem to be a thing at all until AAA took off in the 90s so there wasn't a big group writing about and pimping Satanico in old newsletters and the early days of message boards because he wasn't really a AAA guy. This makes it a situation where you have to be a really big fan of those lucha guys in particular to come up with a critical analysis.

 

If you were big on All Japan in the 90s you didn't have to be crazy about Kobashi to come up with an opinion on him because he was just 1 of the big stars of the promotion. Same thing with guys like jdw who weren't all on the Flair bandwagon back in the day. They didn't have to specifically seek out Flair matches to criticize them if they were already watching NWA/WCW. You could compare him to his peers wrestling in the same promotion at the same time period.

 

The lucha guys don't have that same benefit because of footage issues so obviously that leads to less "balanced critiques" because if you don't like them you just quit seeking out their matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

Am I right that your point, JvK, is that there is no balanced critique of people like Casas and Satanico in the same way there is Flair and Kobashi?

It's more in the way people talk about this stuff. I seldom hear people talk about what bugs them or what doesn't work or anything like that, it's more like that Lego song "Everything is Awesome" with all the people who like lucha dancing about singing those words.

 

It might come down to what goc said, that it doesn't have the benefit of being more widely watched, or what OJ said that its just not widely popular, but my impetus as some one who has got into so much wrestling on the back of recommendations from ... Well, these exact same people, is to ask why?

 

I can talk about stuff that bugs me from people I love. Harley worked too weak for the belt, Flair sometimes doesn't gives good workers his broomstick match, Ted can be lazy as hell on WWF house shows, Funk sometimes undermines the gravitas of situations with comedy, Arn Anderson occasionally lets you down when you go in expecting a classic, etc. etc.

 

Maybe it's because when I hear people talk about lucha they are more in a shilling mode, but I don't feel the discourse has that level of nuance. OJ might be the exception.

 

I also wonder WHICH criticisms of lucha matches can't be met with the response "it's a style thing".

 

I guess these questions are still coming from a place in which I'm bugged by my personal failure to get into it.

[Microstatistics]

I guess what confuses me more is how people I align with an awful lot on other wrestling also end up being high on some of this stuff.

 

On his GWE show Pete talked about having to get into a certain zone to watch Lucha. Do other people do that too?

 

Some of the 2/3 fall match structure stuff I'm convinced just wouldn't fly in a US ring and we'd talk about some egregiously bad psychology -- but those criticisms are protected by the almost automatic argument that "well it's a style thing".

 

It's really that hump I'd like to get to the bottom of one day.

 

I know you are tired of hearing the "it's a style thing" defense of Lucha but it is valid because watching pro wrestling with a universal set of standards is nearly impossible. The psychology is not worse, it's just different. If someone locks in a hold 3 minutes into a Lucha match, the likelihood of getting a submission is waaay greater than if someone in Japan or US did it because the "effectiveness" of the hold varies depending on the region. Why are piledrivers sometimes considered instant kill in Mexico but routinely no sold in Japan? Same principle. Two quick submissions in a Lucha 2/3 falls match might be considered bad pacing or poor psychology because its not what you see in Japan/US but its normal in Mexico because the stuff leading up to it is logical in its justification of it within the confines of the style. Each style needs to viewed on its on merit. I would never expect shootstyle or joshi workers to sell or pace their matches in the same way as Kobashi or Kawada. If you can't get into Lucha or something else on its own, that is completely fine but I think saying it is bad because it would be considered bad in a US or Japanese ring is not fair.

 

 

 

 

I think it appears cooperative when wrestlers spend a long time sitting in a hold and selling pain instead of searching for a counter.

 

I agree with this. I think in a NWA technical style match, someone grabbing an armbar and holding onto it for 2-3 minutes with minimal resistance from the opponent is FAR more cooperative than something like Dandy vs. Azteca where one guy cannot simply grab a hold without the opponent immediately trying to reverse/counter it.

[goc]

 

I think it appears cooperative when wrestlers spend a long time sitting in a hold and selling pain instead of searching for a counter.

I agree with this. I think in a NWA technical style match, someone grabbing an armbar and holding onto it for 2-3 minutes with minimal resistance from the opponent is FAR more cooperative than something like Dandy vs. Azteca where one guy cannot simply grab a hold without the opponent immediately trying to reverse/counter it.

 

Ditto chinlocks/headlocks that end with the guy getting out in the standard "3 elbows and shoot off into the ropes" formula. If it was that easy to get out of, why not just do that as soon as your opponent puts it on you?

 

As for JVK's idea that people don't criticize lucha, it's wrong.

 

Are you seriously on this kick again? If you look through my blog or Matt's stuff at Segunda Caida you will find plenty of criticism of lucha bouts.

What OJ says is true, there are plenty of negative reviews on his blog & at Segunda Caida. Even in the yearbook threads there are differences of opinion on the same matches with some people liking stuff more than others and these are supposed to be the best lucha matches of their respective years. There is not some complete uniformity of lucha opinions. It's just that people who regularly write about lucha accept it on it's own merits without trying to look at everything through a "would this work in U.S./Japan" prism.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can you tell me some stuff that bugs you about certain lucha workers goc? (or anyone)

[Microstatistics]

Some stuff about the style that annoys me at times (not about any workers in particular):

 

Some of the falls in trios can be too choreographed like all 3 guys getting pinned at the same time and in the same manner.

Some of the brawls can be too formulaic/repetitive (typical formula: technico gets ambushed and beaten up in first fall, gets surprise win in the second fall, wins back and forth battle in third fall)

Sometimes finishing stretches can be too back and forth so transitions/selling suffer

[goc]

Not specific wrestlers but one of the big things I don't like about lucha is how sometimes in trios matches it's like they just completely stop enforcing the rules especially in matches where all 3 rudos wind up holding the ring and beating down 1 babyface for long stretches at a time.

 

And to go along with the last one, when one tecnico is getting beat down by all 3 rudos and his partners are selling simple stuff like death because it's not time for them to get back in the ring yet. But I also hate that kind of stuff in U.S. multi-man matches where guys spend half the match laying outside of the ring because it's not their turn to do spots yet.

[Eegah]

A big thing about lucha and really any form of wrestling is context. If you got into a shoot style promotion and expect high flying and total highspots you will be disappointed, if you look at 90s All Japan and think the blurred lines between heel and face is an indictment then you are looking at it wrong. Its not a lazy and tired excuse. Trying to compact wrestling into a strict adherence of rules and regulations is a fools errand. Lucha does have different rules but there are often times that it does delve into your more canonical views of wrestling. Blood feuds that build to apuesta matches will more than likely fit your view of wrestling than others. Undercard spotfests are just as valid and crucial to the type of business theyve built a foundation on.

 

Totally disavowing the style as a whole because of your views of what wrestling should be is short sighted. It is okay to be different and have different tropes. I think blood feuds in lucha is some of the high points of wrestling as both a sport and an art, if you cant get behind losing some of your semblance of structure as a fan that some of it conveys its really not a failure of you as a fan. Thats okay, you want your wrestling a different way. I do think lucha as a whole is a different animal but it is one im okay with personally. I was talking to a buddy about it and made the comment that even shitty lucha i can try and find something good in. Whether its the gimmick, the absurdity, the crowds. Far too much we as fans hold this higher standard that is in a lot of ways unattainable. Enjoy it for what it is.

 

Just as you can accept classic WWWF for their horrid undercards and paint by numbers main event match structure, or late 80s Crockett for fuck finishes. Accept that there is a building block in place for lucha and I guarantee you will find things that you enjoy. Myself, im still what id consider a novice despite seeing hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage of it over time. Wrestling fandom is some of the most OCD there is, I have so many blind spots of the style but I do have a passion to learn more and see more.

 

Whether its blinders or not, I think its wrong to dismiss it as a style based on your usual views of wrestling. Its different and thats what makes it awesome.

[elliott]

It's like I didn't specifically address negative aspects of a guy's #1 case in the middle of laying out his #1 case.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28604-el-satanico/?p=5732143

[ohtani's jacket]

Can you tell me some stuff that bugs you about certain lucha workers goc? (or anyone)

 

I'm not going to mention anything because people get annoyed when I criticise things, but here's the thing, Parv: you don't seem to like it when people criticise Flair, Jumbo, Kobashi or Hase, so why should people criticise Casas or Satanico? I'm not trying to attack your integrity or anything, but I don't really buy when you say it's me not lucha. Whenever you talk about lucha, I always think "oh, it's how he feels about jazz or prog-rock." What I really want to know is whether you like jazz vocalists and whether you like Brian Uno. Because I honestly think it's lucha not you.

[El-P]

Is Lucha prog-rock, jazz-fusion ou exotica ? That's the real question.

[ohtani's jacket]

Lucha is the free jazz soundtrack to a post French New Wave Jacques Rivette film as far as Parv is concerned.

[El-P]

Lucha is the free jazz soundtrack to a post French New Wave Jacques Rivette film as far as Parv is concerned.

 

Oh fuck you had to drop Rivette's name. It is totally unrelated, but you couldn't have picked a worse name today for me to read.

 

Free jazz would be more shoot-style to him, no ? No story, no heel and face, no nearfall, no nothing ! Pro-wrestling noise !

 

Yeah. Tamura is freaking Ornette Coleman ! Pure joy.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Can you tell me some stuff that bugs you about certain lucha workers goc? (or anyone)

I'm not going to mention anything because people get annoyed when I criticise things, but here's the thing, Parv: you don't seem to like it when people criticise Flair, Jumbo, Kobashi or Hase, so why should people criticise Casas or Satanico? I'm not trying to attack your integrity or anything, but I don't really buy when you say it's me not lucha. Whenever you talk about lucha, I always think "oh, it's how he feels about jazz or prog-rock." What I really want to know is whether you like jazz vocalists and whether you like Brian Uno. Because I honestly think it's lucha not you.

 

Did you mean Brian Eno? I don't mind Brian Eno.

 

I like Bessie Smith a good bit, and can listen to Sinatra and that sort of thing (though that stuff not my fave). I was fond of the Norah Jones album a few years back. I also like Back at the Chicken Shack as I've mentioned before, and stuff like Weather Report. When I say "Jazz", what I mean is Bitches Brew, and that general cacophy of random trumpets. I mean this:

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2zuxwr

 

To me, that shit is whack and it doesn't matter if I live to be 102, I'll think it is pretentious and masterbatory crap. Even when I was in New Orleans, a group of them went to a famous Jazz Club called "The Spotted Cat", and I chose to walk back to the hotel. There was just no way.

 

Anyway, I have criticised Flair, Jumbo, Kobashi and Hase plenty of times myself, and have let lots and lots of criticisms fly without comment; the times I've reacted have been when I think the criticisms are not justified, or else when I see people trotting out extremely lazy criticisms that I feel we've dealt with many times before. In the case of Flair specifically, I was motivated to do the series because it felt like he was taking it from all angles and I hated seeing Ric torn down to build up so many others. I mean shit he spent his whole career making other people and putting them over, he has to put over every other fuck in the GWE too? No, I wasn't going to let it happen. In the case of Jumbo it was more, "hold on, you guys all watched AJPW set and were high on this stuff, WHAT HAPPENED?". But I've admitted faults in all four of those guys and many other guys I like. I did admittedly get peeved during the Hase thread, but only cos it seemed so targetted.

 

And I guess why I keep coming back to this is that I am trying to work out if lucha really is like jazz -- a hopeless case for me -- or more like something like hip-hop, which is a totally different beast to most of the other music I listen to with its own rules and world, but something I'm into on its own terms. The reason I still maintain hope is because of all the matches I've watched that I've rated highly. Yes, it's almost all Cota or Casas stuff with a few exceptions (I loved that one Eddie / Dream Machine tag and MS-1 vs. Chicana), but there's the slight suggestion that there might be more stuff along those lines out there. And now there is no GWE deadline to think about, I can just range a bit.