Self-contained Chris Benoit and GWE Talk

[joeg]

I'm looking at my list. There are multiple felons on it. Flair assulted a stewardess. Lawler married a 15 year old. Barr raped a girl. Austin smacked around his wife. The rumors about guys like Lyger and Patterson are rediculous. Thats not counting all the DUIs and asualts. So I don't see how only Benoit matches can make somebodys stomach turn.

[Timbo Slice]

Benoit killed his wife and children due to massive brain trauma that accumulated over years and years. He wasn't some asshole that just suddenly decided to commit murder. He had a major bout of depression after Eddy died, had holes in his memory, and it's generally assumed that he wasn't of his right mind leading up to the incident. It was sudden, it was terrible, it was unforgivable. Yet it's not black and white because of what was going on in his head leading up to it. My official stance is that he decided to go about the way he worked and didn't think about the consequences correctly, but then you add in what that can do to brain chemistry, then add in Eddy's death, and really, you're getting into an area that even if you make a decision in favor or against it, you can talk yourself out of being hard on him murdering someone. I can't, but people cope with stuff differently.

[EricR]

You don't possibly see how one thing is even worse than all those other really bad things you mentioned?

[Death From Above]

I chose not to rank him despite once being a big fan.

 

I'm not really here to pass judgment on anyone that did. I think there's nothing to be gained there personally, and I won't have anything else to say on the topic. To each their own.

[Jingus]

I ranked him, pretty highly. He's still a few spots lower than he would've been in 2006, it's understandably much harder for me to get emotionally into his matches now, but his murderous actions didn't erase the body of work. It's not like the matches never happened, and we're only supposed to be ranking the matches here.

 

joeg makes a good point: wrestling is FILLED with scummy people. Benoit is far from the only murderer: we've also got Invader #1, for the obvious example. Scott Hall once shot a guy dead in a bar fight. Jimmy Snuka (probably) beat his girlfriend to death. New Jack has allegedly slain several people. Verne Gagne, Kensuke Sasaki, Great Khali, Mayumi Ozaki, Big Daddy, Akitoshi Saito, Ox Baker, and whichever-opponent-knocked-Emiko-Kado's-brains-out all killed people with their bare hands by accident, plus a number of outlaw-indy nobodies who've also managed to kill people in the ring through sheer incompetence. I'm sure plenty of people died in wrestler-related car wrecks back in the territory days. And of course a large number of workers have deliberately killed themselves, some in horrifically disturbing fashions (hello there, Larry Sweeney).

 

And that's just the killers; when you factor in the rapists, the domestic abusers, the thieves, the guys who were unforgivable liars or con men even by the disgraceful standards of wrestling... that's a pretty huge pile of absolute fucking crazy-and/or-evil people that we're talking about. And that's just the ones we know happened, the ones that became public. From guys who were in the business, I've privately heard a few genuinely nauseating stories about recognizable names, stories which never made it to the Sleaze List. For every Hardbody Harrison who was caught doing something unforgivably atrocious, there were probably two other guys who did the same thing but got away with it.

 

Of course Benoit's crime is (probably, that we know of) the single worst thing on the list. I can't think of any other wrestlers who ever deliberately murdered a child. But let's not pretend that there aren't other monsters whose despicable actions were within the same ballpark.

[Johnny Sorrow]

This thread will be useful to seperate who's a total zero and who's a normal human being.

[joeg]

 

 

From guys who were in the business, I've privately heard a few genuinely nauseating stories about recognizable names, stories which never made it to the Sleaze List.

 

 

Ditto. I've heard some really, really sleazy stories.

[Parties]

I did vote for Benoit, in that I think there's more to be learned from the dissonance of "If this guy hadn't killed his family, he'd make almost every ballot". Look: a GWE poll is infinitely, universally insignificant compared to what happened to that family. Where he ranks, if he ranks, who votes for him, who else you vote for if not him - all of it is clearly so, so, so trivial in comparison to the real matter at hand. In no way did I vote for him out of any sort of lasting fandom. Far from it. We can all say "That guy isn't worth celebrating" and feel some sense of righteousness about it, but unfortunately I do think it's a little more complicated, in unknowable ways that are really uncomfortable and confusing to discuss. Not voting for him is completely understandable, and I haven't watched many (if any?) of his matches since.

 

This was the guy who was #3 in the SC poll a year before his death. Most people in the IWC at the time thought that assessment was correct or close to it. To me one of the sad lessons of Benoit is that you can be one of the greatest artists in a field and still be either an unthinkably horrible person, or the product of extremely tragic and horrifically damaging mental collapse, or some combination of the two. Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, and OJ came to mind in the process, but I realize none of those are really sound comparisons. It's a very disturbing idea, but in the end it felt more honest for me to include him than not include him. I might feel differently about it if I tried to retroactively watch more of his work: perhaps I'd be sickened by it and no longer think him to be that great artist. There's a cognitive dissonance at play: we don't want to believe that someone who did this could still be a "great wrestler", and we don't want to believe that a "great wrestler" would do this. That said, including him totally sucks, the place where I ranked him (middle of the ballot) is a really weird choice that I never really made peace with, and I'm not so heartless as to say that I don't have a lot of mixed feelings and perhaps even regrets about doing so. It certainly feels easier to leave him off altogether, but I can't say that doing so would feel quite accurate to my true read on the situation.

 

To me, Benoit is one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time. And that is quite possibly the all-time worst thing about wrestling.

[The Thread Killer]

 

 

 

From guys who were in the business, I've privately heard a few genuinely nauseating stories about recognizable names, stories which never made it to the Sleaze List.

 

 

Ditto. I've heard some really, really sleazy stories.

 

 

So what?

 

I can't stand moral relativism.

 

Firstly, even if every allegation against other wrestlers in this thread is true, that doesn't make what Benoit did any less morally wrong, or him any more deserving of any type of acclaim. If the world made any logical sense, when you murder your wife and son, you forfeit respect and admiration in the eyes of society. For example, Paul Bernardo recently wrote and self published a novel. It might turn out to be the greatest written book since War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy, but I'll never know because I have no intention of reading it. Why? Because people like that don't deserve attention, respect or admiration. Should people honestly be expected to judge the "artistic" work of somebody who is that morally reprehensible? Is that really the argument some people are making here, that we should be able to emotionally detach ourselves and judge the work without considering the source?

 

Secondly, I am puzzled by the idea of lumping all wrong doing into one big category. On one end we have guys like Carlos Colon and Pat Patterson, who might not have even done anything wrong at all...there are just rumors and allegations. On the other end, we have guys like Benoit, Snuka and Jose Gonzalez who have been pretty much proven to have committed the act of murder - although Gonzalez was acquitted and Snuka has not yet been found guilty. Are people honestly making the argument that all wrestlers are sleazy to some degree, and since that is the case, we as fans are in no position to judge them or differentiate the levels of sleaze, therefore they should all be judged based solely on their wrestling abilities alone? Alleged sexual harassment, DUI, murder...all the same thing. Who are we to judge? Since we can't say one is worse than the other, may as well forget all of them!

 

There aren't two sides to this argument. There isn't an argument. Killing your wife and son is a bad thing to do, and if you do it you don't deserve any respect of any kind. Period.

[overbooked]

Professional wrestling has been directly or indirectly responsible for many, many horrendous incidents and early deaths. I genuinely think to be a a wrestling fan you need to have some sort of emotional and/or moral discontent from that, otherwise it would be impossible to enjoy virtually any match as you would be so aware of its consequences.

[joeg]

Professional wrestling has been directly or indirectly responsible for many, many horrendous incidents and early deaths. I genuinely think to be a a wrestling fan you need to have some sort of emotional and/or moral discontent from that, otherwise it would be impossible to enjoy virtually any match as you would be so aware of its consequences.

 

Exactly.

[NotJayTabb]

I didn't rank Benoit. For me, I wanted to revisit and rewatch everyone I voted to ensure a fair ballot, and I simply don't want to revisit Benoit's matches. I've watched a few since 2007, and every time I've found it impossible to watch them without instantly thinking about the murders. Both the GWE and wrestling in general are supposed to be fun, something I enjoy watching. Watching Benoit's matches take away that sense of enjoyment for me, so he didn't make my ballot.

 

Also, just wanted to defend Big Daddy after he was listed with other wrestlers who'd accidentally killed someone. King Kong Kirk had a pre-existing heart condition that killed him, not Daddy. In fact, the inquest fully absolved Crabtree of any responsibility, so Big Daddy didn't kill anybody.

[The Thread Killer]

 

Professional wrestling has been directly or indirectly responsible for many, many horrendous incidents and early deaths. I genuinely think to be a a wrestling fan you need to have some sort of emotional and/or moral discontent from that, otherwise it would be impossible to enjoy virtually any match as you would be so aware of its consequences.

 

Exactly.

 

 

I assume what overbooked meant was moral "disconnect" because I do have moral discontent from the Benoit murders, hence my argument.

 

Either way, the argument that you can't enjoy virtually any match if you don't emotionally distance yourself from the product due to the industry's moral issues and early deaths, makes no sense.

 

Wrestling is scripted and predetermined unlike a sporting event. However, Pro Wrestling requires the fan to buy into the story and eventual outcome as part of that process - especially in North America where the emphasis is on the story. Does that not require emotional investment of some kind? Or should I watch every match with the attitude: "Most wrestlers are morally questionable people, many of whom die early - therefore I am going to emotionally disconnect myself from this match and only view it on an analytical level?"

[Jetlag]

I didn't rank Benoit because I don't think he's a great wrestler. It's that simple!!!!

[The Thread Killer]

Also, just wanted to defend Big Daddy after he was listed with other wrestlers who'd accidentally killed someone. King Kong Kirk had a pre-existing heart condition that killed him, not Daddy. In fact, the inquest fully absolved Crabtree of any responsibility, so Big Daddy didn't kill anybody.

 

Along those lines, joeg mentions Pat Patterson. Patterson (to the best of my knowledge) was accused of two things - sexual harassment, and child molestation. Some people have claimed that guys like Steve Lombardi, Virgil and one of the guys in La Resistance got or kept their jobs by doing sexual favors for Patterson. There has never been any proof of this, and I have never been convinced that some of those rumors weren't due to the fact that Patterson was openly gay in an incredibly homophobic industry. Bottom line is, he was never charged with anything.

 

The sexual molestation charges were proven to be untrue. Billy Graham talks about this at length in his autobiography. Those allegations were fabricated but taken seriously because of allegations of a similar nature against Terry Garvin and Mel Phillips at the exact same time. I do not believe Pat Patterson is a child molester and I'm not entirely convinced he's guilty of sexual harassment either.

 

Even though nobody cares what people say about a guy on a messageboard on the internet, I don't think it's fair to lump a guy like Patterson in when talking about Benoit. It's not in the same ballpark...it's not even the same game.

[overbooked]

 

I assume what overbooked meant was moral "disconnect"

 

Yep, I meant moral disconnect.

 

I'm very much in the camp of wanting and needing to emotionally connect with wrestling, rather than just viewing analytically from a distance. One of my key criteria for my 100 was the ability a wrestler had to make me believe in some sense or other.

 

However, to enjoy wrestling like that I also have to remove myself from the reality that this particular form of entertainment directly and indirectly leads to some pretty horrible and tragic things happening. After Eddie and then Benoit I drifted away from wrestling as the whole form made me feel queasy. I found it hard to watch old footage as I saw a load of deaths, found it hard to watch contemporary wrestling as I was distracted by the possibility of the tragedy to come.

 

Returning to wrestling years later did require some sort of moral disconnect, and emotional disconnect on a "real life" not storyline/match level. It is an odd thing, as I see emotional manipulation at the heart of good wrestling, yet there is this really problematic layer underneath it all.

[joeg]

My point is its more than just Benoit for me. I can watch his matches... sometimes, sometimes I can't. There are several wrestlers that because of being horrible people or because of the the shape they are in now, its a struggle to watch some of their matches sometimes. The only way to really watch wrestling is to just not think about it. If you think about whatever, it makes it really hard to watch anything that isn't recent. For example go try and sit through Wrestlemania 6 without disconnecting yourself. Its kind of impossible.

[Danish Dynamite]

Lots of back and forth here from everybody. Interesting.

 

Lots of different aspects.

 

Morally: His crime was horrible. No excuses in any way. I have no idea if I would whitewash The Beatles from music history if it had been one of them. You couldn't deny their influence, but it might take all joy out of listening to them for me.

 

Medically: I'm pretty convinced Benoit at the time of the murders was not the same guy as he was earlier. Blame wrestling, himself, doctors, lifestyle, genetic deterioration of his brain or some other factor. Most likely he was damaged in a way that could have caused others to act the same, horrible way.

 

The business: Sure, wrestling has been filled with a shitload of shady characters (no one in this thread has even outed the KKK supporters, and it says something that they're not even at the top of the dung heap). And it's valid and would be an extremely interesting read if someone made a serious piece on all that. But the Benoit murders should still be viewed separately for what they are and not hidden behind other aspects of a dodgy business. Whether or not someone leaves off others for moral reasons could be an entire extra thread.

 

Wrestling: I was not watching regularly in 2007, but a friend of mine called me when the story broke. But to me it wasn't "current superstar CB", but "that guy I remember everybody digging, but me not being that in to". Other than it being absolutely horrible, the debate for this is actually the first time it's ever really had a direct influence on me.

 

Ranking: I'll concede that if it hadn't happened and the voters from 2006 had made a good case for him, I could have gone back, seen a lot of his work and would possibly have ranked him. I was never into him before, and I doubt he would have placed higher than 80 for me. And that made it easy for me to just not consider him. I would have been in a much bigger dilemma if I had considered him for the top 25. Put to the test, I think I would have left him off.

[mprice]

I did vote for Benoit, in that I think there's more to be learned from the dissonance of "If this guy hadn't killed his family, he'd make almost every ballot". Look: a GWE poll is infinitely, universally insignificant compared to what happened to that family. Where he ranks, if he ranks, who votes for him, who else you vote for if not him - all of it is clearly so, so, so trivial in comparison to the real matter at hand. In no way did I vote for him out of any sort of lasting fandom. Far from it. We can all say "That guy isn't worth celebrating" and feel some sense of righteousness about it, but unfortunately I do think it's a little more complicated, in unknowable ways that are really uncomfortable and confusing to discuss. Not voting for him is completely understandable, and I haven't watched many (if any?) of his matches since.

 

This was the guy who was #3 in the SC poll a year before his death. Most people in the IWC at the time thought that assessment was correct or close to it. To me one of the sad lessons of Benoit is that you can be one of the greatest artists in a field and still be either an unthinkably horrible person, or the product of extremely tragic and horrifically damaging mental collapse, or some combination of the two. Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, and OJ came to mind in the process, but I realize none of those are really sound comparisons. It's a very disturbing idea, but in the end it felt more honest for me to include him than not include him. I might feel differently about it if I tried to retroactively watch more of his work: perhaps I'd be sickened by it and no longer think him to be that great artist. There's a cognitive dissonance at play: we don't want to believe that someone who did this could still be a "great wrestler", and we don't want to believe that a "great wrestler" would do this. That said, including him totally sucks, the place where I ranked him (middle of the ballot) is a really weird choice that I never really made peace with, and I'm not so heartless as to say that I don't have a lot of mixed feelings and perhaps even regrets about doing so. It certainly feels easier to leave him off altogether, but I can't say that doing so would feel quite accurate to my true read on the situation.

 

To me, Benoit is one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time. And that is quite possibly the all-time worst thing about wrestling.

 

That was absolutely well-said. That basically echoes my sentiments. Knowing what I know and even where I put him, it still puts a stake in my gut having the knowledge of what happened in June of 07. But for some reason, far from being heartless or uncaring, antisocial or trying to put him on a pedestal, I still ranked him where I did. I know I will probably get a lot of flack for it. It's not #1 but I know it's in the top 10 because it helped shaped a 15-16 year old to continue watching.

 

That day in June of 2007 did strike a chord with me....I went away from being a die-hard observer to being a casual follower in a matter of just a day.

 

I'm rambling now, but just seeing where people stand is a very interesting point of discussion.

[Jingus]

Even though nobody cares what people say about a guy on a messageboard on the internet, I don't think it's fair to lump a guy like Patterson in when talking about Benoit. It's not only in the same ballpark, it's not even the same game.

I'm not pretending it's ALL in the same ballpark. But I listed a dozen other wrestlers who have ended human lives, and I'm sure there are others whom I missed or who simply weren't caught. (Just from my personal circle of indy acquaintances: I know one convicted murderer, one bank robber, multiple statutory rapists, multiple domestic abusers, and countless drug dealers.) Yes, Benoit is probably the single worst example of a wrestler doing something hideous; but there's plenty of other examples of other guys doing incredibly evil, morally unforgivable things. Yet practically nobody seems to seriously suggest that we shouldn't vote for any of those other guys based on moral grounds.

[anarchistxx]

I ranked him based on work and didn't give a thought to anything else.

 

This. I don't listen to music differently based on the crimes of the musician. I read books both by and about people who have been responsible for terrible things. I find entertainment in television programs about Pablo Escobar, one of the cruelest people who ever lived. I enjoy paintings composed by a man who murdered his wife.

 

I suppose the biggest difference is that Chris Benoit's work is more personal - we are being asked to be invested in him as well as his art, unless we are able to completely separate the character from the man. I rarely watch his matches anymore, but then again I rarely watch any wrestling. He was still my favorite wrestler growing up and throughout most of my mega fandom. Wrestlemania XX is still the most cathartic moment experienced as a fan, it seemed to make everything worthwhile. Just because my castle was ultimately built on sand doesn't take away from what an architectural masterpiece and thing of beauty that chateau was while it was still standing. He made my list.

 

Whether that it right, who can say. Humans are very good as suppressing bad thoughts on certain people. Chris Brown sells millions of records every year despite once public and violently beating a woman half to death. Doesn't stop people dancing to 'Loyal' at 2AM in a student club, for better or worse.

[MoS]

I voted for him, but it was with a heavy heart. I think what made me do that was that I listen to a bunch of Beatles almost every day, despite Lennon being a flaming asshole, although his misdrmeanours obviously cannot even be compared to murdering your wife and child. Still, in a GOAT music conversation, I wouldn't at all hesitate to put The Beatles at no. 1, and I try to not be a hypocrite as much as I can, although obviously I don't succeed always.

[jamesie_2015]

He made my top 10. For many years he'd have been my unhesitating number one. While I have discovered people I now see as better (or people have emerged) there's definitely an element of me being uncomfortable in watching his stuff in his slip down the list, despite my best attempts to remain dispassionate.

[JerryvonKramer]

I didn't really think about what he did at all when watching matches back and I honestly didn't think a lot of the work stood up that well. I did rank him because he was so mechanically sound and one of the best guys at executing moves, but I said before that I'm convinced his ranking would have fallen a good bit had that never happened; I guess we'll never know.

[GOTNW]

I didn't rank Benoit because I don't think he's a great wrestler. It's that simple!!!!

Ditto. No use for his 90s junior stuff, only really liked him opposite Regal and Finlay.