Lawler's punch vs. Flair's chop

[GOTNW]

 

. I'm not sure if there is another move in wrestling as multilayered as Flair's chop, in terms of how many different things it can do in the course of a match. I'd have to think.

This is the debate I want to see. Fuck it, we know both guys are going to finish super high in GWE, more nitpicking will ensue, we might as well get it out of the way. Work your magic old men of PWO.

[goc]

I'd like to see that "I'm not sure if there is another move in wrestling as multilayered as Flair's chop" quote fleshed out because I don't see it. I mean Lawler had lots of different punches from jabs, to uppercuts, to wild swinging haymakers and all of them looked really good (with the exception of maybe when he'd have a guy on the mat and do his flurry of punches)

[conker8]

There is magic when Flair and Steamboat chops each other.

[goc]

There is magic when Flair and Steamboat chops each other.

I'll take Lawler & Dundee punching each other over that any day.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd like to see that "I'm not sure if there is another move in wrestling as multilayered as Flair's chop" quote fleshed out because I don't see it. I mean Lawler had lots of different punches from jabs, to uppercuts, to wild swinging haymakers and all of them looked really good (with the exception of maybe when he'd have a guy on the mat and do his flurry of punches)

It was fleshed out. In this series of posts:

 

 

 

I find the way Flair does chops more satisfying than a lot of other guys who do them. He really lets them sink in. I can't remember which pod it was we talked about it, but also the different ways he uses the chop in a match -- psych out, mind game, punishment, humilation, declaration of superiority, mechanism to take breath from opponent, desparation move -- he's the master to me.

This was exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps not always the strongest or loudest, but always great audio on his and absolutely no one was better at *using* the chop rather than just throwing it out there for the sake of it.

Such a brilliantly organic and smart worker.

 

Can throw 10 chops in one match and each one will be in a different context and carry a different meaning. Little 10-year old Low Ki never understood that, I reckon.

 

There's also the one he throws just before the beg off, with the hope draining out of his face. Brilliant spot to feed a babyface comeback.

The reason Flair could get more nuances out of his chops than Kobashi is because his character was more multi-faceted than Kobashi's and so there were different and deeper registers to go to. Being mostly a heel helps there. It is a shame GWE has coloured things to the extent where basic appreciation of a master at his craft has to be tinged with certain overtones. I look forward to the day we can just talk about wrestling again without them. I'm not sure if there is another move in wrestling as multilayered as Flair's chop, in terms of how many different things it can do in the course of a match. I'd have to think. Misawa's elbow might have more depth but probably less range or versatility.

 

Kobashi is #2 chopper in my view.

[Steenalized]

 

There is magic when Flair and Steamboat chops each other.

I'll take Lawler & Dundee punching each other over that any day.

 

same, though I wonder how much of that is chops becoming ubiquitous while good punches can be rare

[goc]

 

 

There is magic when Flair and Steamboat chops each other.

I'll take Lawler & Dundee punching each other over that any day.

 

same, though I wonder how much of that is chops becoming ubiquitous while good punches can be rare

 

That's because there is a lot more skill involved in throwing a good worked punch. It's creating the simulation of violence while not actually hurting your opponent. Pretty much everything wrestling is supposed to be.

 

A good chop is pretty much just hitting a guy really hard in his chest. Personally chops are kind of stupid to me because you're getting your chest all blistered and cut up for a move that no one in the audience really has any respect for as anything more than a noise to Whoo along with.

[Steenalized]

I agree that technique-wise a punch is going to be harder to throw without potatoing the hell out of someone and still looking good than a chop. Chops are fine if punches are treated as an actual no-no.

[DR Ackermann]

According to Bret Hart, wrestler who throw chops are idiots. So are wrestlers who let other guys chop them. I guess it's Lawler's punch then.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sure that this thread or poll is really getting at the original thing I was talking about.

 

I wasn't really talking about skill or technique or execution. I was really talking about the many different things Flair can get out of a chop within the confines of a single match. Much of that is about context and psychology rather than about skill.

 

I wasn't really saying "Flair throws a great chop", I was talking about what he's able to wring out of it in many different moments. See posts above.

[DR Ackermann]

I like the idea of what you said before about variance in Flair's chops, but I've never picked up on any of that. Likewise, I've never seen the level of nuance in Flair's work in general that others have raved about. On the other hand, I love Lawler's punches and I feel like he adjusts them to milk dramatic moments in a way that is very gratifying. There's somewhat of a catharsis to them which I think is in large part to Lawler's timing as the same effect is there when he is working heel and on the receiving end of a comeback flurry from somewhat like Dundee.

[JerryvonKramer]

I like the idea of what you said before about variance in Flair's chops, but I've never picked up on any of that. Likewise, I've never seen the level of nuance in Flair's work in general that others have raved about. On the other hand, I love Lawler's punches and I feel like he adjusts them to milk dramatic moments in a way that is very gratifying. There's somewhat of a catharsis to them which I think is in large part to Lawler's timing as the same effect is there when he is working heel and on the receiving end of a comeback flurry from somewhat like Dundee.

One function of criticism is to open up people's eyes to things they didn't see before.

 

1. Chop at start of match that says "come on, you're in the ring with the champ now". It's a little wake up call, and a statement of intent.

 

2. Chop as a wear down tactic. It's meant to take the breath and wind out. Picture a big stiff chop in the corner.

 

3. Chop as an annoyance tactic. Especially against a bigger opponent. Picture Nikita getting increasingly pissed off.

 

4. Chop as method of getting over superiority of opponent. Picture Flair hitting Taker, say, and finding it has zero effect, trying again and then backing up and begging off, the hope in his face draining away.

 

5. Chop as a comeback. Especially when he's babyface, of course.

 

6. Chop as invite to chop exchange. One of the cool things about the Flair chop is that it invites a reply. This is where an exchange can start. And this can go in a number of ways, straight up manly exchange (see Tenryu match) or with either guy coming out on top and transitioning to something else.

 

7. Chop as feed to babyface comeback. Primary usage, more of a hint of desperation here. Think about that for a second, the same move he uses for his own comeback, also feeds a babyface comeback.

 

8. Chop as demonstration of total superiority. This is bully Flair kicking the shit out of Ricky Morton or whatever.

 

9. Chop as a pop to the crowd. This is when he hits it and woos and the crowd woo back.

 

10. Chop as a mind game. This is especially important in the longer matches. Flair might have been getting his ass kicked for twenty minutes and then he still goes and pulls a huge stiff chop out and it's a mind fuck. A lot of Flair as champ psychology is about playing with hope and then taking away hope.

 

That's what I see. I hope this will enrich other people's experiences of watching Flair matches.

[Grimmas]

Punches do all those things too

[JerryvonKramer]

Punches do all those things too

It feels like an apples to oranges comparison. I've watched a lot of Lawler matches, he doesn't always throw the same punch. He has a lot of different styles of punch. Jabs, uppercuts, straight rights, flurries and so on. It's not really the same thing that I'm talking about. It's not one move its lots of different ones.

 

The Flair chop is a spot. The same spot being used to different ends. That's what I was talking about.

[DR Ackermann]

I'm going to watch the first Clash match with Sting tomorrow and I'll keep all of that in mind when I do.

[Grimmas]

I'm going to watch the first Clash match with Sting tomorrow and I'll keep all of that in mind when I do.

I'm sorry.

[spookysaku]

Hoping this is all leading to a thread dedicated entirely to Kabuki's uppercut.

[Matt D]

Or how Bossman uses his uppercut. Or Kane!

[Microstatistics]

Phantom punches was one thing that always bothered me about US wrestling. Lawler was the guy who turned me around on them so have to go with him for that.

[El-P]

Flair. Simply because he didn't do that for 90% of his time on top. Plus, kayfabe-wise, if you punch a guy a hundred times, something should happen. If it doesn't, your great looking punch actually kinda sucks. Plus, punches are supposed to be illegal in pro-wrestling. So many heels got so much out of arguing with the ref that no, it wasn't a closed fist. Lawler just went through punching like a machine-gun in a time it wasn't supposed to happen that easily.

 

That bieng said, chops have became way overused in the 00's, and the Woo chant got annying pretty quickly. Also, a weak chop is way more ridicule than a bad looking punch. A bad looking punch, well doesn't look good, but you know it's fake. Weak chop, well, it's *really* a weak chop.

[elliott]

The real question is Sangre Chicana's Punch vs Shinya Hashimoto's Chop.

[GOTNW]

Flair. Simply because he didn't do that for 90% of his time on top. Plus, kayfabe-wise, if you punch a guy a hundred times, something should happen. If it doesn't, your great looking punch actually kinda sucks. Plus, punches are supposed to be illegal in pro-wrestling. So many heels got so much out of arguing with the ref that no, it wasn't a closed fist. Lawler just went through punching like a machine-gun in a time it wasn't supposed to happen that easily.

Lawler will bloody up his opponent with them and win a lot, not sure what else they're supposed to do.

[El-P]

Sorry, but after a while, I'm just bored of Lawler's endless punching. It feels lazy to me because Lawler is smart enough and a good enough worker to have the sense of doing something else, like, anything else. There's always a point in any big time Lawler match that I'll cringe or yawn at that one punch too many. Too bad, because I really like Lawler. Feels like lazyness and lack of imagination/effort to me.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm glad I took the time to write up the nuances of the different varieties of Flair chop ...

[GOTNW]

Sorry, but after a while, I'm just bored of Lawler's endless punching. It feels lazy to me because Lawler is smart enough and a good enough worker to have the sense of doing something else, like, anything else. There's always a point in any big time Lawler match that I'll cringe or yawn at that one punch too many. Too bad, because I really like Lawler. Feels like lazyness and lack of imagination/effort to me.

It's not like he doesn't do literally anything else, why would Lawler switch to a different strike if his punch works? Plus it's not like Lawler is famous for wrestling 50 minute broadways. Most Lawler fans just like his punches enough that it's not an issue.