Reactions to the List: 50-26

[El-P]

Am I wrong to think calling Fujiwara a shoot stylist is too narrow a label? Maybe I am. I just see his career as having wider scope than Han or Tamura, and maybe even more than Takada or Yamazaki.

 

He was, like many, a shoot-style guy was also worked in pro-style promotions. As a shoot-style guy, he also used quite a bit of pro-style stuff. Did I mention his horrible headbutts ? He also wasn't that great working outside of shoot-style environment, unlike Yamazaki or Takada. He was fun, but not that good, especially past his peak.

 

Do people think of guys like Naruse, Nagai and Kakihara primarily as shoot stylists?

 

Yes.

[El-P]

Ironically, I had AJ Styles just behind Fujiwara in my list, at #28.

 

His peak in New Japan has been terrific, and as I'm going threw early TNA, he strikes me as a great wrestler already in 2003. Filling the holes and he gets pretty fucking high in my book. Like CM Punk and another contemporary candidate, I'd have to actually watch more in-beween to see if he goes up or down, but AJ Styles is one hell of a talent.

[pol]

Fujiwara's headbutts are great.

[El-P]

And so credible in a shoot-style match too.

[Coffey]

I don't dislike AJ Styles. I ranked him #69 on my list actually but seeing him get four top 10 votes? I dunno, man. As long as wrestling has been around, all over the world, I struggle to see how he's that high on that many ballots. One of the 10 best wrestlers, ever? Of all-time? I haven't really commented on a lot of the placements thus far, and anyone could easily argue about my picks as well, but this was the first one that really raised my eyebrows. Again, I like Styles & I'm continually impressed by his athleticism, but he's also quite sloppy a lot of the time & I'm having a hard time digesting who else was in these top tens that they had Styles over. Flair, Funk, Hansen, Lawler, Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, Liger or Eddie Guerrero even... are you putting Styles over them? I know earlier, we had a guy like Scott Steiner get a #1 vote, which of course I thought was crazy too, but Steiner was around for a long time, in big promotions, and in the early 90's was impressing a lot of people with things they had not seen before in the States. I distinctly recall, in example, the Frankensteiner winning Move of the Year multiple times.

 

I would agree that Styles has improved and admit that he's entertaining & has several good-to-great matches under his belt but it still seems pretty crazy to me. This one is the first of the top 100 that made me go "huh!?"

 

I'm actually fine with his overall placement & don't have a problem with him being on the list, it's the Top 10 votes for him that befuddle me.

[Timbo Slice]

Styles that high really is the most egregious recency bias pick we have. It's like people took the last two-three years and extrapolated it over his entire career while also leaning on the "only decent thing about TNA" crutch. He's one of the best going right now, but man alive the recency bias with his selection bugs me.

 

Expected Fujiwara higher as well. But Top 40 is Casey Kasem territory, so I'm cool with it.

[goodhelmet]

AJ has been around for a long time. From Wildside to RoH to TNA to New Japan to WWE. The guy has been around and known for over 15 years. The Scott Steiner equivalent would be 1989 to 2004. I would vote AJ over Steiner in that span.

[Danish Dynamite]

Yeah, it's definetely ok Styles dropped now. Other than Shawn and Foley he was the lowest ranked on my list that hadn't gone yet. Impressive showing for AJ, but I think you guys are right about the recency bias on him. How much of his case is the last 3-4 years and how much is actually his full career?

 

EDIT: Hmm. Will's post above mine makes sense to me. Answers my question I think.

[Coffey]

AJ has been around for a long time. From Wildside to RoH to TNA to New Japan to WWE. The guy has been around and known for over 15 years. The Scott Steiner equivalent would be 1989 to 2004. I would vote AJ over Steiner in that span.

 

Agreed... but are you gonna say AJ Styles if one of the top ten wrestlers of all-time?

[WingedEagle]

Styles that high really is the most egregious recency bias pick we have. It's like people took the last two-three years and extrapolated it over his entire career while also leaning on the "only decent thing about TNA" crutch. He's one of the best going right now, but man alive the recency bias with his selection bugs me.

 

Expected Fujiwara higher as well. But Top 40 is Casey Kasem territory, so I'm cool with it.

 

If you take away the last 2 years, what you probably remove is what brought a lot of eyes and attention to AJ. The bulk of his case is in ROH, TNA and the years before New Japan. Viewed outside the context of awful TNA television and booking, his runs in both promotions is remarkably strong, as I couldn't believe how blown away by I was by what he was doing at such a young age and then with such consistency for so long. I don't get top 10 either, but there have been a lot more ludicrous names thrown out at that level. I think I ended up ranking him top 25 or so, and frankly, with more time, could've been sold on going even higher.

[GOTNW]

I'd have Styles over Eddie Guerrero easily. Like his best stuff more and he's been better for longer. Eddie is like Rey in that he was really awesome as that TV worker that could also deliver anyway you put him in longer matches excpet his run is 10 years shorter.

[Dylan Waco]

Fine with where AJ dropped. Wish that Fujiwara would have done better, but I don't see it as a grave injustice either. There are a lot of guys ahead of both of them that I don't buy, but I'll whine about that later.

 

I don't really think AJ in someone's top ten is particularly outrageous either. He wasn't near mine, but I was shocked by how well I thought much of his TNA work held up.

[elliott]

Am I wrong to think calling Fujiwara a shoot stylist is too narrow a label? Maybe I am. I just see his career as having wider scope than Han or Tamura, and maybe even more than Takada or Yamazaki. Do people think of guys like Naruse, Nagai and Kakihara primarily as shoot stylists? Takayama I know people see as more than that.

 

Agree with this. The wider scope (and simply having more matches) is why I ended up putting Fujiwara over Tamura.

 

I tend to think of Tamura as the best shoot style worker and Fujiwara as the best wrestler who worked shoot style.

[MasterJonBurr]

 

 

Am I wrong to think calling Fujiwara a shoot stylist is too narrow a label? Maybe I am. I just see his career as having wider scope than Han or Tamura, and maybe even more than Takada or Yamazaki.

He was, like many, a shoot-style guy was also worked in pro-style promotions. As a shoot-style guy, he also used quite a bit of pro-style stuff. Did I mention his horrible headbutts ? He also wasn't that great working outside of shoot-style environment, unlike Yamazaki or Takada. He was fun, but not that good, especially past his peak.

Do people think of guys like Naruse, Nagai and Kakihara primarily as shoot stylists?

Yes.

So you rated Fujiwara 28th, but are dismayed at where he ended up being ranked? Having difficulty sussing out your viewpoint.

 

Fujiwara is the closest to a shoot stylist that I ranked. I decided to take Maeda off my list, despite loving him in the past, and am now regretting it. Fujiwara ticks all my boxes in that he's not just a good worker, but also a great entertainer. I like shoot style but it's almost a different thing for me, and I haven't seen enough to consider my opinion even close to expert.

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[goc]

Had Choshu at #79. I'm a Choshu fan, but I do think people only got to see the best stuff of his and not the mediocre stuff, and really didn't take in accounts his flaws. Seems a bit too high. That being said, nice that he got higher.

 

I have 33 left, which is not surprising since I didn't rate any luchadors (5 are left ?) and I rated some women and shoot-style guy pretty high.

Then maybe you should stop crying about how people didn't rate enough shoot style or joshi workers.

[DR Ackermann]

Fujiwara is the first guy from my top 10 to drop. I don't think he's on the radar of a lot of wrestling fans so I'm really glad he jumped as high as he did.

[El-P]

 

Had Choshu at #79. I'm a Choshu fan, but I do think people only got to see the best stuff of his and not the mediocre stuff, and really didn't take in accounts his flaws. Seems a bit too high. That being said, nice that he got higher.

 

I have 33 left, which is not surprising since I didn't rate any luchadors (5 are left ?) and I rated some women and shoot-style guy pretty high.

Then maybe you should stop crying about how people didn't rate enough shoot style or joshi workers.

 

No women or shoot-style workers in the top 39. If 5 luchadors are making it, then they didn't need my votes apparently. (well, depends what you call "luchadors", I'm guessing we're not talking about Eddie and Rey here)

[El-P]

I don't really think AJ in someone's top ten is particularly outrageous either. He wasn't near mine, but I was shocked by how well I thought much of his TNA work held up.

 

Honestly, if his TNA work keeps on delivering like it did the first year, AJ could get dangerously close to my top 10. Eddie is not even close at this point.

[WingedEagle]

 

I don't really think AJ in someone's top ten is particularly outrageous either. He wasn't near mine, but I was shocked by how well I thought much of his TNA work held up.

 

Honestly, if his TNA work keeps on delivering like it did the first year, AJ could get dangerously close to my top 10. Eddie is not even close at this point.

 

 

Exactly. I still haven't made it through the bulk of his TNA work yet and it was still enough, along with the ROH, NJPW and indy work, to get him that high. Dude is vastly underrated. He's a very, very different worker from Bryan and not as endearing or naturally charismatic in the same way, but when you sit down and examine their work and the matches each have put together, AJ came out a whole lot closer than I ever would've thought possible.

[goodhelmet]

 

 

AJ has been around for a long time. From Wildside to RoH to TNA to New Japan to WWE. The guy has been around and known for over 15 years. The Scott Steiner equivalent would be 1989 to 2004. I would vote AJ over Steiner in that span.

Agreed... but are you gonna say AJ Styles if one of the top ten wrestlers of all-time?

No. He didn't make my list.

[anarchistxx]

 

 

AJ has been around for a long time. From Wildside to RoH to TNA to New Japan to WWE. The guy has been around and known for over 15 years.

 

This is true, but it is only recently that people have started to pimp him properly as a best in the world type of guy. At the peak of ROH he wasn't considered one of the top talents even on the roster if my recollection is correct. His TNA matches received more of a 'bright spot on a terrible show' type reaction unless he was in there with someone like Samoe Joe, at which point he was considered the weaker participant of the match.

 

It seems strange to me that his stock has risen so highly so quickly. Not really seen enough of his work since 2007 to make a judgement though, other than his recent NJPW and WWE work.

[DR Ackermann]

Fujiwara is the first guy from my top 10 to drop. I don't think he's on the radar of a lot of wrestling fans so I'm really glad he jumped as high as he did.

 

Just kidding. Fujiwara was my number 9 and Grey was my number 10.

[Quentin Skinner]

To be fair I think even in 2005 AJ had a best wrestler in the world case.

[Parties]

Fujiwara was my #5 and I didn't rank Styles, so this is all going according to plan.

 

I think the average votes for Breaks (36.28 on 67 ballots) and Fujiwara (32.64 over 81) speak well for why people who haven’t seen them or given them a fair shake should check out their stuff. Even if they’re somewhat different than typical US workers, neither is an acquired taste. If you like Bockwinkel, heel Lawler and other violent Memphis stooges, Adonis, the Crockett Horsemen, or heel Danielson, you can get into Breaks. If you like Dusty, Eddy, Garvin, Kawada, Choshu, or Randy Savage, there are distant traces of them in Fujiwara.

[elliott]

Is there a contingency plan in place in the likely event that Grimmas gets arrested after revealing a top 20 pick?

 

Is there too much riding on one Canadian?