[GWE] PWO, The GWE, and Me

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Wrestling also isn't nearly as diverse as music. Besides music is only ever talked about in PWO through the prism of rock and sometimes electronic/rap/jazz etc. I think jdw may have brought up classical composers like one time but that's about it. Comparing the two is also pretty wacky since I assume most members are musically illiterate.

 

What is your point here?

Is it that because wrestling is not as diverse as music, the analogy about styles doesn't hold?

My point is that if you're doing a greatest musician ever ballot and your list only includes popular acts from the past century your ballot is a joke.

Try to stay focused on the actual argument being made in that case. It's a non-point. And for the purposes of the analogy it would be something like "Greatest Ever Popular Music Act". Alright.

[Benbeeach]

Not the hill I'm going to die on a list that's already finished. But there are some things, that just ARE great independent of what they do for us individually, personally, then now and in the future.

I'm a 25 year old African American male from the inner city, with a life experience that is uniquely my own. If I was doing a 100 greatest musical artists/acts of all time list, maybe the Beatles were before my time and don't necessarily speak to MY life experiences and the things I enjoy in music, maybe they do maybe they don't. I think it would behoove me regardless to listen to some albums, read up on them and see if I couldn't to the best of my abilities, try and objectively find a way for them to be on my list. Or maybe I'd just be like dude, it's a list about music, and I know fuck-all about the beatles. Maybe it's time I raise the white flag and do my homework. "I don't value the British invasion" in my estimation doesn't hold any water. Like it's an option, but not one I would exercise.

I'm not nitpicking anyone not having Dr. Wagner Jr's Proidgy HNIC album over Chris Harris and/or James Storms Toni Tennille and the Captain's greatest hits or something.

I guess it's just a division between the
a ) the 100 greatest wrestlers ever TO ME
b ) who I think the 100 greatest wrestlers ever are

They look similar, but aren't the same thing. And I guess we as a consensus came up with a list that was option b, derived of a 150 or so option a's. Or 50 option a's and a 100 option b's. Or some other unknowable permutation thereof. Sometimes a and b in the same list. Or maybe GWE was just the 150 greatest wrestler to us, just a brief sample of what our fandom and looks like in 2016 like it did in 2006, like it will in perhaps in 2026 and in no way meant to be definitive or serious. IDK. There's alot of IDK's here.

The general feeling I've gotten from all the reactions, and wrap up articles and political threads and discussions on mobsters and nuclear bombs and Cyclone Mackey, is that the list is over, it's done. Thanks everyone for participating, no matter what your list looked like, and now we're tired and done with it and ready to move on.

Can't say I blame anyone for these feelings. Lists such as these or about music, art, etc.. are natural "what the hell is this all about?" reactionary exercises. People getting mad or sad or feeling attacked because that's exactly what happened, shouldn't be shocked with what they signed up for.

But I think I've said my peace on the matter.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not the hill I'm going to die on a list that's already finished. But there are some things, that just ARE great independent of what they do for us individually, personally, then now and in the future.

I'm a 25 year old African American male from the inner city, with a life experience that is uniquely my own. If I was doing a 100 greatest musical artists/acts of all time list, maybe the Beatles were before my time and don't necessarily speak to MY life experiences and the things I enjoy in music, maybe they do maybe they don't. I think it would behoove me regardless to listen to some albums, read up on them and see if I couldn't to the best of my abilities, try and objectively find a way for them to be on my list. "I don't value the British invasion" in my estimation doesn't hold any water. Like it's an option, but not one I would exercise.

I'm not nitpicking anyone not having Dr. Wagner Jr's Proidgy HNIC album over Chris Harris and/or James Storms Toni Tennille and the Captain's greatest hits or something.

I guess it's just a division between the

a ) the 100 greatest wrestlers ever TO ME

b ) who I think the 100 greatest wrestlers ever are

They look similar, but aren't the same thing. And I guess we as a consensus came up with a list that was option b, derived of a 150 or so option a's. Or 50 option a's and a 100 option b's. Or some other unknowable permutation thereof. Sometimes a and b in the same list. Or maybe GWE was just the 150 greatest wrestler to us, just a brief sample of what our fandom and looks like in 2016 like it did in 2006, like it will in perhaps in 2026 and in no way meant to be definitive or serious. IDK. There's alot of IDK's here.

The general feeling I've gotten from all the reactions, and wrap up articles and political threads and discussions on mobsters and nuclear bombs and Cyclone Mackey, is that the list is over, it's done. Thanks everyone for participating, no matter what your list looked like, and now we're tired and done with it and ready to move on.

Can't say I blame anyone for these feelings. Lists such as these or about music, art, etc.. are natural "what the hell is this all about?" reactionary exercises. People getting mad or sad or feeling attacked because that's exactly what happened, shouldn't be shocked with what they signed up for.

But I think I've said my peace on the matter.

There's an elephant in the room here.

 

I mentioned King Crimson as my example.

 

You mentioned The Beatles as yours.

 

The Beatles are more difficult to ignore than King Crimson. Why? They were more important to the history of popular music. More influential, more visible, just bigger and basically impossible to ignore.

 

I was trying to get at this earlier when I asked Dylan for his 10-week course on 1980s wrestling for the student starting from scratch.

 

If you've got ten weeks on the history of popular music, you have to spend a week on The Beatles. King Crimson? Probably not.

[GOTNW]

Well obviously popular music is different than serious composition. If you're doing a best popular music act ever list you can basically do whatever the hell you want in my view, though I would be interested to see someone take a Scaruffi-esque approach of reviewing stuff as a critic and not a fan to wrestling. I do think there's a differentiation between "best popular acts" and "best acts in a certain genre that may be popular in recent times". The goal of most pop criticism is also to not alienate and satisfy its readers to ensure they continue paying attention to their opinion. Very similar to wrestling in that sense.

[Benbeeach]

And who do you think equates to the beatles and who doesn't Parv? I could see a world, a list, where someone would have Casas over Flair, and neither of them number 1. I might disagree but that's the beauty of it all. It'd be much harder to envision one where there is Flair, and then a 100 wrestler gap between the next closest luchador.

Do people not think Casas would make girls swoon and cry if he were on American Bandstand? Is that not part of the "canon"?

If you don't have Ishikawa on your list you don't have Ishikawa, GangStarr's not your thing, whatever. If you summarily dismiss Prince...well then.

[JerryvonKramer]

And who do you think equates to the beatles and who doesn't Parv? I could see a world, a list, where someone would have Casas over Flair, and neither of them number 1. I might disagree but that's the beauty of it all. It'd be much harder to envision one where there is Flair, and then a 100 wrestler gap between the next closest luchador.

 

Do people not think Casas would make girls swoon and cry if he were on American Bandstand? Is that not part of the "canon"?

 

If you don't have Ishikawa on your list you don't have Ishikawa, GangStarr's not your thing, whatever. If you summarily dismiss Prince...well then.

I'm a huge hip-hop aficinado as some of you know, and I could see an argument where the #1 rap guy doesn't make the overall 100. Like, say GZA from Wu-Tang would make my top 5 hip-hop artists list easily, but I don't know if he makes my top 100 artists overall list. Cos I'm just not sure if hip-hop has the real depth or emotional maturity of some other forms of music. I would also say that I'm not sure if there's anyone here who has a deeper respect or understanding for hip-hop than I do on this board -- it's possible, but I've got to be up there.

 

I don't want to make equivalences across to wrestling, becuase I am done talking about specific wrestlers, but I think it's possible to side-line entire styles, even ones you love and value, and be fine with it.

[WingedEagle]

Are Flair and Misawa, Hashimoto and Bockwinkel, Savage and Chosu such as different as the Beatles and GZA? I'd never have thought they were that far apart, but perhaps that is the case until someone is immersed in them.

[JerryvonKramer]

Are Flair and Misawa, Hashimoto and Bockwinkel, Savage and Chosu such as different as the Beatles and GZA? I'd never have thought they were that far apart, but perhaps that is the case until someone is immersed in them.

I don't really want to make analogies across to specific guys.

 

I could probably live with a GZA = Volk Han analogy. Something like that.

[jushin muta liger]

 

And who do you think equates to the beatles and who doesn't Parv? I could see a world, a list, where someone would have Casas over Flair, and neither of them number 1. I might disagree but that's the beauty of it all. It'd be much harder to envision one where there is Flair, and then a 100 wrestler gap between the next closest luchador.

 

Do people not think Casas would make girls swoon and cry if he were on American Bandstand? Is that not part of the "canon"?

 

If you don't have Ishikawa on your list you don't have Ishikawa, GangStarr's not your thing, whatever. If you summarily dismiss Prince...well then.

I'm a huge hip-hop aficinado as some of you know, and I could see an argument where the #1 rap guy doesn't make the overall 100. Like, say GZA from Wu-Tang would make my top 5 hip-hop artists list easily, but I don't know if he makes my top 100 artists overall list. Cos I'm just not sure if hip-hop has the real depth or emotional maturity of some other forms of music. I would also say that I'm not sure if there's anyone here who has a deeper respect or understanding for hip-hop than I do on this board -- it's possible, but I've got to be up there.

 

I don't want to make equivalences across to wrestling, becuase I am done talking about specific wrestlers, but I think it's possible to side-line entire styles, even ones you love and value, and be fine with it.

Parv, I'm guessing you never listened to a Big KRIT record. Lots of emotional maturity in his albums. Hip hop has depth and a lot of it is tied to the Black experience.

 

Very similar looking at that to other wrestling around the world. There are character aspects I don't connect with certain wrestlers from around the globe cause it's tied so much to that native culture. Take a wrestler like Atlantis. Never really stuck to me but I have respect for him. But Mexicans love him.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm familar with Big KRIT. And also a lot of the guys who have carried the torch for "depth" in hip-hop over the years. Common, for example. But the form has some in-built limitations, I think. Yes, depth is possible, but I don't think it can get to certain places easily. Do you think a Big KRIT record holds up to the best stuff from Stevie Wonder, Curtis Mayfield, Sly and the Family Stone, etc? Even within the purview of "black experience", there might be artists who do it better. Hip-hop excels in other areas, political aggression or social comment, for example. There are places it can and cannot go: it has limitations as a form.

 

Let's not go too far off topic though. I think the point is made.

[jushin muta liger]

His records can hold up for me (and I'm talking for me) because I have a personal connection to the music. Plus I was raised when hip hop was already here. The limitations you talk about are the linguistics of hip hop culture not connecting universally like regular singers do. But even then, not everybody' is going to connect with a Curtis Mayfield. Doesn't matter how old or young you are, stuff might not connect with you. Certain things are not palatable for certain people but you have to try it before you write it off.

 

Certain sections of wrestling can be applied the same.

 

The thing with the GWE and I said this in the Wrestling Today thread is that the climate of this board tends towards older wrestling. Most of the podcasts here cover the history of the territories. Where is the show covering 90s EMLL and AAA cards? BTS does it on certain episodes but that's it. Where is the Battlarts podcast? Bill Thompson does a WOS podcast but it's on another site. Certain wrestlers were pimped but not to a certain extent for the PWO audience.

[jdw]

NBA playoffs this year have been blah. You could've at least skipped that dreadful and pointless first round and participated in GWE for those two weeks

 

 

I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

 

But...

 

What the Spurs did to the Thunder was one of the more amazing butt kickings I've seen by a top team on another top team... which is an interesting theme of the season, since there have been a number of these. I suspect Will would agree that was damn near perfection of there, and he's seen all the amazing games of the Spurs over this 20 year run.

 

The Dubs are a historic team coming off a near-historic season last year, so I've following them all year and am pretty committed to watching all their playoff games. Add in the Rockets are an insane Russo-style team, and Steph getting hurt, it was an oddly compelling mess of a series.

 

Yohe enjoys following the Clippers despite being a Lakers fan, so I was forcing him to watch that complete trainwreck of a series with the Blazers. Loads of bad basketball, but oddly compelling once you're locked in... like a carwreck.

 

There hasn't been anything like the Clippers-Spurs of last season, but that really was a once in a generation (if even that) type of a first round series between two true title contenders. But it has been a strange start to the post season after an amazing regular season.

 

Hmm... need to get back on topic before I get yelled at...

[Bierschwale]

I realized voting for Andre was maybe my way of representing France on the poll. Well, expect it really wasn't. But hey, that's one French guy on the top 100.

 

We just need that magical Catanzaro vault to open up.

[Benbeeach]

Somehow Negro Casas turned into Jay-Z, who wouldn't make a top 100, and all was lost

[ohtani's jacket]

Parv, isn't that King Crimson example exactly the same thing you did with BIGLAV where you voted for wrestlers whose work you don't enjoy because you couldn't ignore their case? Didn't you claim over and over again that doing so was the only fair way to construct a list? Are you now playing Devil's Advocate or is this an about face?

 

To answer your question, if you were engaging in a music poll and plenty of folks were discussing prog-rock then yeah, you should probably listen to it to see where you stand on it. I don't think you have to vote for it if you don't like it, and I might not even bother sampling it because I'm pigheaded or whatever, but it makes sense to try new things instead of talking about your favourite records endlessly. One of the best things about projects like these is that it focuses your viewing/watching and gives you a reason to dive into stuff you may have always wanted to see or listen to but had put off or never gotten around to. I also see it as ongoing. One of my favourite things to do after any poll is to seek out the highest ranking things I've never seen or heard of before. To me the entire process should be about building knowledge and not reconfirming the status quo.

[JerryvonKramer]

My point is that the insistence on some sort of representation of every style is one I can't sign up to. Do dubstep artists really deserve to get ranked in my theoretical top 100? I have no problem saying something like "nah, skrillex isn't as good as even the 30th best and most important rockabilly acts". My explorations of both rockabilly and dubstep -- a genre I consider to be basically an aberration -- have led me to that conclusion. I advocate exploring, I don't advocate the need to demonstrate all of that exploration in the list. The best of dubstep is quite good on its own terms, but that is neither here nor there in the overall scheme of a top 100.

 

--------

 

As a small and hopefully amusing aside, I went on a date two years ago in which I said "do you hear that swooshing noise coming from down there? I believe that is called dubstep". This woman found that hilarious and next time I saw her had made a full dubstep compilation CD adorned with artwork she'd drawn herself and covered with various quotes from stuff I'd said on that date. Was a pretty sweet, if also quite weird, gesture. But it did increase my knowledge of dubstep significantly. I didn't see her again.

 

When I get home I might upload a pic of that CD, cos it remains one of the most remarkable things I have in my possession.

[Ship Canal]

My point is that the insistence on some sort of representation of every style is one I can't sign up to. Do dubstep artists really deserve to get ranked in my theoretical top 100? I have no problem saying something like "nah, skrillex isn't as good as even the 30th best and most important rockabilly acts". My explorations of both rockabilly and dubstep -- a genre I consider to be basically an aberration -- have led me to that conclusion. I advocate exploring, I don't advocate the need to demonstrate all of that exploration in the list. The best of dubstep is quite good on its own terms, but that is neither here nor there in the overall scheme of a top 100.

 

--------

 

As a small and hopefully amusing aside, I went on a date last year in which I said "do you hear that swooshing noise coming from down there? I believe that is called dubstep". This woman found that hilarious and next time I saw her had made a full dubstep compilation CD adorned with artwork she'd drawn herself and covered with various quotes from stuff I'd said on that date. Was a pretty sweet, if also quite weird, gesture. But it did increase my knowledge of dubstep significantly. I didn't see her again.

 

When I get home I might upload a pic of that CD, cos it remains one of the most remarkable things I own.

 

I'd be genuinely interested in seeing that tracklisting Parv, please do post that!

 

As someone for whom the advent of dubstep and grime were lifechanging experiences Skrillex is about as far away as you could possibly imagine from the original dubstep movement that grew out of developments in 2-step garage in the early 2000's. Stuff like early Loefah, DMZ, Hatcha, Kode 9 etc etc are sonically nothing like Skrillex and I recognize none of the qualities that excited me so much in 2006 in what people reel out as dubstep today. In many ways its confusing to me because what I hear is a complete departure from the entire aesthetic atmosphere of what dubstep represented. Dubstep was the most thrilling, intoxicating rave culture I have ever been involved in when it was seeping out of London slowly up north circa 2004-2005, tracing a direct lineage through UK hardcore all the way back to Jamiacan soundsystem culture. It was minimal, streamlined, completely in tune with multicultural urban Britain at the time. The sounds were far more reminiscent of a post-rave take on King Tubby or something. Skrillex bares almost no relation to anything to do with any of that so I'd be interested to see what stuff she picked out for you and what kind of conception of dubstep it represents.

 

Anyway, back to pro wrestling....

 

 

 

[overbooked]

Isn't the root of this the fairly dull and obvious point that it is ultimately futile trying to create an objective list of subjective stuff, be it music, books, pro wrestling, whatever else?

 

The best pro wrestling hits you in the heart and gut, not just the mind. And that is an intensely personal experience. Everyone looks for something different from watching pro wrestling, to varying degrees. And everyone has a different frame of reference, in terms of what wrestling they've watched, broader cultural experiences, circumstantial preferences that particular day/week/year etc.

 

And it is all the above that makes watching, then talking, about wrestling so much fun. There isn't a formula to crack. There isn't an absolute right way to appreciate wrestling.

 

The list is an illuminating snapshot of a subset of a subset of a certain type of fan. The process was clearly fun and valuable too, in and of itself.

 

But I think lists work best when seen as the start of a discussion rather than the end of one.

[ohtani's jacket]

My point is that the insistence on some sort of representation of every style is one I can't sign up to. Do dubstep artists really deserve to get ranked in my theoretical top 100? I have no problem saying something like "nah, skrillex isn't as good as even the 30th best and most important rockabilly acts". My explorations of both rockabilly and dubstep -- a genre I consider to be basically an aberration -- have led me to that conclusion. I advocate exploring, I don't advocate the need to demonstrate all of that exploration in the list. The best of dubstep is quite good on its own terms, but that is neither here nor there in the overall scheme of a top 100.

 

--------

 

As a small and hopefully amusing aside, I went on a date two years ago in which I said "do you hear that swooshing noise coming from down there? I believe that is called dubstep". This woman found that hilarious and next time I saw her had made a full dubstep compilation CD adorned with artwork she'd drawn herself and covered with various quotes from stuff I'd said on that date. Was a pretty sweet, if also quite weird, gesture. But it did increase my knowledge of dubstep significantly. I didn't see her again.

 

When I get home I might upload a pic of that CD, cos it remains one of the most remarkable things I have in my possession.

 

But there are countless more styles in music than there are wrestling. What is the wrestling equivalent of dubstep? It's hard to draw a parallel.

[Matt D]

 

My point is that the insistence on some sort of representation of every style is one I can't sign up to. Do dubstep artists really deserve to get ranked in my theoretical top 100? I have no problem saying something like "nah, skrillex isn't as good as even the 30th best and most important rockabilly acts". My explorations of both rockabilly and dubstep -- a genre I consider to be basically an aberration -- have led me to that conclusion. I advocate exploring, I don't advocate the need to demonstrate all of that exploration in the list. The best of dubstep is quite good on its own terms, but that is neither here nor there in the overall scheme of a top 100.

 

--------

 

As a small and hopefully amusing aside, I went on a date two years ago in which I said "do you hear that swooshing noise coming from down there? I believe that is called dubstep". This woman found that hilarious and next time I saw her had made a full dubstep compilation CD adorned with artwork she'd drawn herself and covered with various quotes from stuff I'd said on that date. Was a pretty sweet, if also quite weird, gesture. But it did increase my knowledge of dubstep significantly. I didn't see her again.

 

When I get home I might upload a pic of that CD, cos it remains one of the most remarkable things I have in my possession.

 

But there are countless more styles in music than there are wrestling. What is the wrestling equivalent of dubstep? It's hard to draw a parallel.

 

Young Bucks matches.

[El-P]

Any musical analogy just don't work. Forget it people.

[BAMptb]

I can tell you that going into this, I primarily was exposed to major wrestling from the US. 2 years ago (before the project) I came across this board through the partnership with Place to be. It opened my eyes and I began to expose myself to wrestling. Now you don't have to like what I am about to say, but it is pretty much a reality and I am willing to bet that everyone in my position (whenever that was) would have probably done the same thing. Start with All Japan in the 90's. I have been around the "IWC" long enough to know that All Japan in the 90s is generally regarded as the end all be all to wrestling. I'm sorry I didn't start with Lucha. I did vote Lucha wrestlers on my list because eventually I got to some of it. I like Lucha, I just don't like it as much. Pretty simple. I haven't even begun to watch all of the Lucha I want to, because, time. I simply ran out of time. The 2 big styles that I didn't vote for were World of Sport and Shoot style. Sorry I just don't like Shoot style. I think Parv might have said it on his podcast (and I'm totally paraphrasing) that if he wanted to watch shoot style, then he would watch UFC. I kind of feel the same way. I'm sorry, I just do. I see it more as a great style that I would enjoy more within a traditional wrestling match. World of Sport is my biggest regret. I was only able to watch a little bit of it. 10 years from now, I probably would vote for some of the World of Sport greats because what I did see, I liked a good bit... I just didn't feel I watched enough of it to properly rank them.

 

I hesitated to turn in a ballot at all. It wasn't until Steven's podcast, and Parv and Chad's that I made the decision to actually turn one in. If nothing else, it exposed me to some fantastic wrestling, so for that I thank everyone here that helped me out with that.

[JerryvonKramer]

Any musical analogy just don't work. Forget it people.

Is the suggestion that because there are fewer styles, they are all equally important?

[El-P]

 

Any musical analogy just don't work. Forget it people.

Is the suggestion that because there are fewer styles, they are all equally important?

 

Because it's ridiculous to compare pro-wrestling and music, plain and simple. I know people like to babble about how "pro-wrestling is an artform", but it really isn't (and no, I'm not intending on debating that tired point again). And even if it was, what's the point of making analogies and comparison between different artforms ? To accomplish what ?

 

And yes, all style of pro-wrestling can be considered as equally important, especially since, when you really think about it, they are not *that* much different. Shoot-style being the one I can accept looks the most different from all the others (and still, it depends who is doing it, a lot of UWF-I big matches involved pro-wrestlers from pro-style companies like Vader or John Tenta, not to mention the feud with New Japan). It's even more true these days.

[JerryvonKramer]

So the takeaway from this is that wrestling isn't all that diverse after all? And because it's not that diverse we should respect all styles equally?

 

I just want to ensure I have the central thesis right.