Mad Dog Posted September 11, 2016 Report Share Posted September 11, 2016 Exactly what supremebve said. This isn't about pro wrestling. This is about MMA. Its preposterous to think that anyone in any athletic shape is going to step into the highest forum of the sport and succeed without even a background in any of the sports / martial arts that are within the scope of the rules. The Brock talk is just silly. Wrestling is a significant aspect of MMA. Success at the higher amateur level in the country is a pretty formidable base upon which to build. Brock was the NCAA Champion, and he probably wouldn't be a UFC caliber fighter if he wasn't fighting in the worst division in the sport. The top 5 or so heavyweight mixed martial artists are legitimately great fighters, everyone else in the division has huge gaping holes in their game. I'd be willing to bet Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Anthony Johnson would be just as successful, if not more successful at heavyweight as they are at light heavyweight. I think Brock would do okay if he was smaller. He's just a freak of nature and I think it's a little unfair as a comparison. Brock had a great background for MMA and he could cover up his rough spots with pure power and athletic ability. Punk really isn't very athletic so he had nothing to fall back on to cover his weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 11, 2016 Report Share Posted September 11, 2016 Wrestling isn't a sport. It shouldn't be classified as a sport. It's way better than sports.The problem here is that most wrestlers simply aren't good enough to create something that can realistically mimick the drama of real sports/fights, let alone create something really impressive artistically. Thankfully, Johnny Sorrow and myself are imaginative enough to fill in the gaps for everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted September 11, 2016 Report Share Posted September 11, 2016 That's an argument for your writing skills not wrestling itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 11, 2016 Report Share Posted September 11, 2016 Exactly what supremebve said. This isn't about pro wrestling. This is about MMA. Its preposterous to think that anyone in any athletic shape is going to step into the highest forum of the sport and succeed without even a background in any of the sports / martial arts that are within the scope of the rules. The Brock talk is just silly. Wrestling is a significant aspect of MMA. Success at the higher amateur level in the country is a pretty formidable base upon which to build. Brock was the NCAA Champion, and he probably wouldn't be a UFC caliber fighter if he wasn't fighting in the worst division in the sport. The top 5 or so heavyweight mixed martial artists are legitimately great fighters, everyone else in the division has huge gaping holes in their game. I'd be willing to bet Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, and Anthony Johnson would be just as successful, if not more successful at heavyweight as they are at light heavyweight. I think Brock would do okay if he was smaller. He's just a freak of nature and I think it's a little unfair as a comparison. Brock had a great background for MMA and he could cover up his rough spots with pure power and athletic ability. Punk really isn't very athletic so he had nothing to fall back on to cover his weaknesses. The problem with a guy like Brock at a lower weight class is that he is too one dimensional. If this was 10 years ago, he would have been OK, but there aren't many guys below heavyweight who could compete with just their wrestling ability. He was able to do what he did, because he fought in the only weight class where you could legitimately be 50 lbs. heavier than your opponent. A 50 pound weight advantage in addition to championship level wrestling, and being a freak of nature is enough for him to compete in a shallow talent pool. A guy like Del Rio, who probably shouldn't fight at heavyweight, was a decent amateur wrestler and a pretty decent athlete, wouldn't be able to make up the difference between his lack of elite fighting skills. I've seen Del Rio fight, I'd bet money on any male fighter on the UFC's roster over him in an MMA fight. I'd probably take most of the women over him or Punk if I'm being honest. Does anyone think that Rousey wouldn't dump either of those dudes on their head and arm bar them? UFC fighters are better at fighting than most people are at doing anything at all. These are highly skilled, elite athletes, who have dedicated years of their lives to learning how to fight in multiple disciplines. That isn't something you can just decide to do and be successful, you have to make it your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 For whatever reason, I found it to be one of the least enjoyable fights I've ever watched. I like Punk, and by no means expected him to fare well, but something about the reality of it playing out stuck an odd chord with me. Seeing him walk out to Cult of Personality and carry himself SO well until the fight started made me realise - this guy was made for pro wrestling, he really should be there, but the industry is so fucked up it'll drive a man insane. So here he is - completely out of his element, galloping out of his corner like fucking Secretariat right into a takedown. A friend asked me what I thought would happen on Friday, and my answer was takedown-punches-choke in the first round. And I'm not saying I'm clever because I said that in advance, because I'm not - it was obvious. Like a lamb to the slaughter, not a soul on the Earth believed he had a chance, they knew he wasn't qualified, the athletic commissions waived their own fucking rules to let him fight for the cash grab. And I'm not crying for Punk - I'm sure he made his money too. But nothing about that was fun. Punk looked like shit, wrestling looked like shit, UFC looked like shit. Oh, and Filthy Tom Lawlor can fuck off crying on Observer Radio about how Punk being in UFC has damaged the cache and respectability of being a "UFC Fighter". Like Sean Gannon fresh off the Kimbo Slice video looking like he's spent his six week camp eating lard pies wasn't a bigger black eye. Or James Toney, who was also out of shape and out of his element. At least Punk worked hard and was ripped, and at least Mickey Gall was inches away from Punk when he took him down, Randy Couture was still on the fucking airplane when he started shooting in on Toney and got him to the ground anyway. Freak show matches have happened before, and if these morons are deluded enough to think this will be a lesson, just wait until the next celebrity wannabe tries it and watch UFC and the commissions bark like sea lions all over again. And of all people not to get that, it's Tom Lawlor, the biggest wrestling fan in the UFC. Defies belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Oh, and Filthy Tom Lawlor can fuck off crying on Observer Radio about how Punk being in UFC has damaged the cache and respectability of being a "UFC Fighter". Like Sean Gannon fresh off the Kimbo Slice video looking like he's spent his six week camp eating lard pies wasn't a bigger black eye. Or James Toney, who was also out of shape and out of his element. At least Punk worked hard and was ripped, and at least Mickey Gall was inches away from Punk when he took him down, Randy Couture was still on the fucking airplane when he started shooting in on Toney and got him to the ground anyway. Freak show matches have happened before, and if these morons are deluded enough to think this will be a lesson, just wait until the next celebrity wannabe tries it and watch UFC and the commissions bark like sea lions all over again. And of all people not to get that, it's Tom Lawlor, the biggest wrestling fan in the UFC. Defies belief. This is so true. Punk isn't a UFC caliber fighter, but he clearly dedicated himself to training for the fight. He gave an honest effort, and the only one who should be embarrassed about his performance is him. Punk is a dude who would be a pretty bad amateur MMA fighter, and was put into a fight with a dude who people think could be a pretty good professional one day. If Punk wasn't famous, he'd probably be fighting in a barn in the midwest for his first fight, but he is famous and that gets you some cache in a sport built on promotion. If the UFC had a choice between putting CM Punk into a fight next month or Filthy Tom Lawlor, they'd still choose Punk. There is only one reason Punk was on the card, and that is because you can sell Punk. There is only one reason to go into business and it is to make money. Punk makes money, therefore he gets to fight in the UFC despite him not being a qualified fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Faulconer Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Joe Rogan talked about his feelings about the Punk signing and pro wrestling on his podcast in all the ways that makes fans like us cringe. Two minutes of google searches would have educated him about both Punk and wrestling a great deal. It looks like it is from December 2014 so his personal opinions may have changed. His public opinion had to change as someone who works for and promotes (not in the literal sense) UFC because his job depends on verbally promoting or shilling. Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. The sincerity in that statement flies in the face of everything we know about him over the fifteen or so years we may have known about it him. As a wrestling fan that a little galling when a guy who has made his money on being sincere and straight forward hides his supposedly real motivations while simultaneously hurting his credibility. His character and his supposedly "real" personality as witnessed either in person or on TV are perhaps tied together more than any other pro wrestling character in recent history. When Punk left WWE I was burned out on him as a character. It was weirdly coincidental that I made a comment along those lines on this forum - only for him to "up and quit" WWE the very next day. My next wish is for all lucha to replace WWE on mainstream media! Stay tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. The sincerity in that statement flies in the face of everything we know about him over the fifteen or so years we may have known about it him. Yeah frankly if there was anything offensive or embarrassing about the whole thing, it was Punk saying this. I almost did a cartoon spit take when I heard him say that on a Countdown. He fucking what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. The sincerity in that statement flies in the face of everything we know about him over the fifteen or so years we may have known about it him. Yeah frankly if there was anything offensive or embarrassing about the whole thing, it was Punk saying this. I almost did a cartoon spit take when I heard him say that on a Countdown. He fucking what. Undertaker said that too, for whatever that's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Undertaker I can almost buy it. Kurt Angle I buy it. Guys who were amateur wrestlers/boxers/martial artists growing up, guys who were genuine hardasses, guys who loved sports...those guys I buy it from. Punk was a small, skinny nerd who didn't care for sports, had no natural athletic ability, had no experience in any combat sports, and was a humongous, raging pro wrestling fan. I call absolute bullshit on the idea that he'd have gone into MMA as a kid if only it was a thing, or that he'd have wanted to do anything other than be a wrestler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew79 Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. It did. Born 78, first UFC 93. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. It did. Born 78, first UFC 93. Come on. You know clearly what he meant, not him at 15 seeing UFC in its first run. UFC after the rule changes being on Spike and such, where you could make a living and showmanship was involved more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. It did. Born 78, first UFC 93. Come on. You know clearly what he meant, not him at 15 seeing UFC in its first run. UFC after the rule changes being on Spike and such, where you could make a living and showmanship was involved more. I still find it dubious, because I can't see someone who never went into any legitimate sports being the type of person who would go into MMA as a youth. It takes a special amount of discipline and determination to be anything but average in a combat sport. The amount of work it would take for someone like Punk, who isn't an elite athlete, to get good enough to make it to the UFC doesn't really seem feasible to me. It is an easy thing to say, especially when there isn't any real way to dispute it, but I don't really think Punk is the kind of dude who could get this far without the fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted September 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Seeing some complaining about how the opening to the Miz/Ziggler match at Backlash "mocked" CM Punk. I don't think that was anyone's idea other than Ziggler or Miz. If Vince or HHH wanted to mock CM Punk they would do something way more petty and obvious. Like have CP Munk show up on Raw and get squashed by Braun Strowman. Then be unmasked after the match and revealed to be Colt Cabana. Then Colt cuts a shoot promo about how he's done being CM Punk's friend and he's gonna testify on Aman's side in the lawsuit against Punk. "If that's the fight you put up in the Octagon what kind of fight will you put up in the courtroom!? Will you roll over & tap there too!?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 At least Punk worked hard and was ripped just getting in shape and then claiming he already won for just showing up is not really any kind of accomplishment at this level and I completely understand why an actually competitive fighter would call bullshit on that kind of "bravery." People can get all misty about that speech but it showed just how much he does not get it. He big-timed his way to removing "Fight in the UFC" off his bucket list so good for him. But turning down the UFC offer, actually starting from the bottom and taking the low-level beatings in order to actually learn and gain experience as a fighter, that would have been brave. But that's not what this was about at all. And like Lawler said, the way the losing speech sounded like it was so prepared showed he's not even mentally in the same space as the average fighter who is working up the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Also yeah Couture-Toney was a total joke too, but Punk being treated by fans and MMA media in more serious fashion and with more reverence than James Fucking Toney is pretty funny and eye rolling. But whatever, I love MMA but MMA media and its fanbase is so bizzare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cox Posted September 12, 2016 Report Share Posted September 12, 2016 Punk said on one of those "Evolution of Punk" episodes that if UFC had existed when he was a kid he probably would have chosen that over pro wrestling. If that's the case, he's lucky that UFC didn't explode until after he started with WWE, because he never would have fought above outlaw shows in MMA, whereas he became a star in pro wrestling. Plus, every pro wrestler says this these days to try themselves look tougher than being a "fake pro wrestler." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenjo Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 No Punk wouldn't have become an MMA fighter were he born a decade later. The Evolution of Punk documentaries actually made him seem like a great guy. So impressive editing perhaps? He's dedicated, he's humble, he loves his fans, he went from nothing to superstardom against all the odds, he's got a perfect marriage and a loving canine. But for some crazy reason he goes and gets his ass kicked every day to follow a pipe dream. I don't recall money being mentioned so perhaps he was doing it for free? It would've been ridiculous to do all that training were it not for the accompanying TV show. Punk even moved house to cut down on the 3 hours driving to the gym each day. Of course he got seriously injured twice as well. He could have taken the Steve Williams approach from back in the days when Puroresu stars used to show up in MMA. Do no training at all, lose the fight in 30 seconds, get paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenjo Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 The fight itself was kind of sad. When Punk's music hit and he walked to the ring it was clear he was in his element once more. The showmanship, the buzz of the crowd, the anticipation of the big match. CM had obviously missed the thrill of competing and was so happy to be back in the limelight. Unfortunately once the bell rang reality immediately set in. His 18 months of training gave him some defensive techniques to turn a 20 second fight into a 2 minute one. Afterwards he puts his opponent over and cuts a pure babyface promo filled with every inspirational cliché he could muster. He forgot the UFC rule about saying fuck in every sentence, but I'm sure their fans will forgive him in time. Don't be surprised to see this guy back at Wrestlemania one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 At least Punk worked hard and was ripped just getting in shape and then claiming he already won for just showing up is not really any kind of accomplishment at this level and I completely understand why an actually competitive fighter would call bullshit on that kind of "bravery... Not saying it is an accomplishment at all, I'm saying citing him as the moment the "UFC Fighter" tag lost its value when there have been more egregious examples of what he's complaining about previously is ridiculous. Particularly from a wrestling fan like Lawlor who should know better than anyone that generating cash with a novelty fight is what the business is really about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 At least Punk worked hard and was ripped just getting in shape and then claiming he already won for just showing up is not really any kind of accomplishment at this level and I completely understand why an actually competitive fighter would call bullshit on that kind of "bravery... Not saying it is an accomplishment at all, Sounds like Punk thought it was though. That was really all he needed to do to convince himself he belonged there, exercise and diet regularly while retired. I'm saying citing him as the moment the "UFC Fighter" tag lost its value when there have been more egregious examples of what he's complaining about previously is ridiculous. I'm sure he understands the business perspective just fine but at the end of the day, he's a fighter foremost. So when millionaire non-fighter CM Punk goes out and says stupid shit like winning doesn't actually matter, I understand his reaction. Lawlor's main issue was that Punk had absolutely no sports or combat experience in 37 years and how absurd it was for the Ohio commission to license him based on "a wrestling background" like Lesnar. Yeah, it's not the first time but this was still a level beyond the other novelty fights they've had and Punk way of approaching this was different, too. It's also gross that Punk created this false narrative that this was what he always wanted to do, gave up a career to pursue this dream, just so he can market himself as "UFC Fighter." Way different than James Toney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
With Coil Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 Fuck Punk. I was indifferent to him in general (as a wrestler, human being) up until he refused to shake Gall's hand. So.. he trains for years (LOL at the training videos and the final result), takes a shortcut to the UFC and even talks about potential title shots and I should give him credit? Fuck Punk and his dreams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 Didn't Brock tap in his first UFC fight too? Huge difference between Frank Mir and Mickey Gall too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 not to mention how Brock was dominating Mir on the ground, escaped an armbar attempt, and got inside the guard before Mir took his leg. Punk was simply not competitive in any way whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted September 13, 2016 Report Share Posted September 13, 2016 That's funny. I had a friend say to me today, "At least he did better than Brock." He didn't see the fight, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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