What is the best kind of matwork?

[Microstatistics]

The type of matwork done varies depending on location and era and different people prefer different things.

 

Shoot-style and lucha matwork are easily my top 2, light years ahead of NWA style matwork which can be sleep inducing at times to be honest unless someone really dynamic is doing it. I like British matwork a lot but not nearly as much as lucha or shoot-style matwork. It was a difficult decision for me but even though lucha matwork can be jaw-droppingly great, shoot-style is probably my favorite style of pro wrestling ever so I went with that.

[Mrzfn]

Not sure about best, but my favorite to watch is British style. It's just so clever, to the point where I know it becomes a turn off for some people, but there's very little I like more in wrestling than watching one hold turn into another as if by magic and having to rewind and slow-mo to find out how it actually occurred. Plus when done well there's an incredible sense of struggle and strategy involved.

[PeteF3]

'80s Japan-style, which sort of incorporates a little of everything. Tighter and generally more realistic than lucha and British but still theatrical. And more variety than the repeated American-style headlock/head scissors/armbar spots.

[Microstatistics]

'80s Japan-style, which sort of incorporates a little of everything. Tighter and generally more realistic than lucha and British but still theatrical. And more variety than the repeated American-style headlock/head scissors/armbar spots.

Added an option for it. I think you are referring to the late 70s-80s New Japan matwork which I can't believe I forgot about. Tatsumi Fujinami is the best non-lucha non-shoot style matworker ever, IMO.

 

 

Edit: I changed it to strong style which now includes 70s, 80s, 90s NJPW matwork, basically Inoki's style

[elliott]

It depends. I'd rather watch Buddy Rose than Octagon. I'd rather watch El Satanico than Terry Taylor. I'd rather watch Nick Bockwinkel than Nobuhiko Takada. I'd rather watch Volk Han than Dean Malenko.

 

Edit: But I think shoot style is probably the most difficult, but its also the most narrow. I've seen all time great workers and matches in every style.

[JerryvonKramer]

Anything that looks painful and gritty, and which is well sold.

[Tim Cooke]

Favorite style when done right - classic NWA side headlock takeover being worked and worked and worked (ala Final Conflict '83 match, Destroyer/Baba '69)

 

Tend to gravitate more towards lucha and shoot style as overall favorites because at their best, they are innovative and appetizing to my personal tastes.

[WingedEagle]

'80s Japan-style, which sort of incorporates a little of everything. Tighter and generally more realistic than lucha and British but still theatrical. And more variety than the repeated American-style headlock/head scissors/armbar spots.

 

Generally agree with this, as I simply want it to be active and look painful. Don't just lay there. The proponent should work to make it look like he's going out of his way to wear down his opponent and inflict real damage, while the man selling should actively put over the position he's in and work to escape. Don't just lie there.

[Microstatistics]

 

'80s Japan-style, which sort of incorporates a little of everything. Tighter and generally more realistic than lucha and British but still theatrical. And more variety than the repeated American-style headlock/head scissors/armbar spots.

 

Generally agree with this, as I simply want it to be active and look painful. Don't just lay there. The proponent should work to make it look like he's going out of his way to wear down his opponent and inflict real damage, while the man selling should actively put over the position he's in and work to escape. Don't just lie there.

 

 

It's funny that's your criteria and you picked NWA Old-Style matwork because to me that style seriously lacks all of those aspects you mentioned. Not being judgmental, it's just interesting how one thing can be seen in two completely different ways.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't really understand what NWA old-style matwork is or how it differs from matwork in AJPW or NJPW. Anyone want to talk through it? To me they are all the same. From Dory, Brisco, Bockwinkel, etc. to Jumbo, Fujinami, and other 80s Japanese workers to the 90s guys and beyond. All seems the same style of matwork, similar moves, similar ways of working the holds, etc.

[Loss]

Sons of Lou Thesz vs sons of Karl Gotch is the short answer, but I'll talk more later.

 

The big difference to me is side headlocks, hammerlocks and armbars that are more present in the NWA style. The AJPW style is the NWA style. The NJPW style incorporates martial arts a little more and has more sudden movement and is a little crisper. Moves like the cross-armbreaker are common. I also feel like the NJPW style has more credible finishers and a lot of moves are presented more as instant death.

[JerryvonKramer]

Sons of Lou Thesz vs sons of Karl Gotch is the short answer, but I'll talk more later.

 

The big difference to me is side headlocks, hammerlocks and armbars that are more present in the NWA style. The AJPW style is the NWA style. The NJPW style incorporates martial arts a little more and has more sudden movement and is a little crisper. Moves like the cross-armbreaker are common.

Interesting stuff. But let's take specific guys. Let's say Choshu and one of his students like a Hase. Aren't they just NWA style too? Working a limb, etc?

 

I feel like your typical sequence might go ...

 

Side headlock takedown, into a headlock, other guy goes over into a head scissors or body scissors, transition into a bridging sequence from there, etc.

 

Or, sometimes it is more leg-based: hamstring snap, Indian deathlock, fall back, half crabs, Texas clover leaf, Boston crab, figure four, etc.

 

Or sometimes you get the arm-based sequence, Steamboat especially: arm drag, arm ringer, maybe into a hammerlock, maybe into knee drops on the arm, into an armbar ...

 

Is that "NWA style"? If so, that's also pretty much the style of Kawada, Kobashi etc. right.

[Microstatistics]

I don't really understand what NWA old-style matwork is or how it differs from matwork in AJPW or NJPW. Anyone want to talk through it? To me they are all the same. From Dory, Brisco, Bockwinkel, etc. to Jumbo, Fujinami, and other 80s Japanese workers to the 90s guys and beyond. All seems the same style of matwork, similar moves, similar ways of working the holds, etc.

 

Have you seen Fujinami's matches vs. Go Ryuma from the late 70s NJPW?. Completely different from the NWA/70s All Japan style of working headlocks, armbars, hammerlocks for extended periods of time. Same with Hashimoto/Hase matwork in the 90s.

 

Also like Loss said, Jumbo/AJPW are part of the NWA style when it comes to working the mat (Though Jumbo is one of the guys I don't mind watching work that style)

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I don't really understand what NWA old-style matwork is or how it differs from matwork in AJPW or NJPW. Anyone want to talk through it? To me they are all the same. From Dory, Brisco, Bockwinkel, etc. to Jumbo, Fujinami, and other 80s Japanese workers to the 90s guys and beyond. All seems the same style of matwork, similar moves, similar ways of working the holds, etc.

 

Have you seen Fujinami's matches vs. Go Ryuma from the late 70s NJPW?. Completely different from the NWA/70s All Japan style of working headlocks, armbars for extended periods of time. Same with Hashimoto/Hase matwork in the 90s.

I've seen a good bit of 80s Fujinami and 90s Hase and Hash. I didn't see a striking difference.

 

Fujinami has a few more flashy counters depending on the opponent, Hash does more sudden movements. Hase just seems like Arn Anderson to me, if Arn did Ura-Nagas.

 

Would love someone to break down the differences, would be educational. Not just for me but I'm sure for many readers here.

 

Incidentally, whatever style Inoki does is the worst, most boring possible style.

[El-P]

Shoot-style, obviously.

[ohtani's jacket]

This was like choosing between your kids. In the end, I went with shoot style because it was the most evolved style, involved the highest amount of skill and included a lot of the basics of catch and other styles I like. To me these matwork styles are almost like different genres with different genre expectations. I don't like it when lucha matwork gets too "shooty," for example. Grittier stuff like Dandy vs. Llanes is cool, but it bothered me when they started doing cross armbreakers in the mid-90s. British matwork depends entirely upon the weight class. I enjoy the heavyweight stuff as much as the lightweight work but I don't think you can really lump them together. NWA matwork and Strong Style are another level down. I can appreciate NWA matwork when Thesz does it, but the further away from Thesz you get the more distilled it is. Strong style can be exciting depending on the worker but it's pretty much a poor man's shoot style.

[gordi]

It depends. I'd rather watch Buddy Rose than Octagon. I'd rather watch El Satanico than Terry Taylor. I'd rather watch Nick Bockwinkel than Nobuhiko Takada. I'd rather watch Volk Han than Dean Malenko.

 

Edit: But I think shoot style is probably the most difficult, but its also the most narrow. I've seen all time great workers and matches in every style.

 

Exactly this. It's not so much the style, it's more the worker.

 

It's not so much that Shoot Style Matwork is amazing. Sometimes, it's really not. It's far more that Han and Tamura are amazing at working on the mat, and they happen to be shoot style workers. Maybe I wanna watch Jim Breaks work on the mat. Maybe I don't wanna watch Giant Haystacks do the same.

[WingedEagle]

I don't really understand what NWA old-style matwork is or how it differs from matwork in AJPW or NJPW. Anyone want to talk through it? To me they are all the same. From Dory, Brisco, Bockwinkel, etc. to Jumbo, Fujinami, and other 80s Japanese workers to the 90s guys and beyond. All seems the same style of matwork, similar moves, similar ways of working the holds, etc.

 

That's basically exactly what I had in mind when voting.

[fxnj]

I went with shoot style and it's not even close. The fact the guys practicing it needed to be proficient in shoot grappling gives it a depth and richness that other styles often reliant on milking a few holes simply can't match. Meanwhile, the fact that it's based on a real fight gives it the grittiness that's sorely lacking from the theatrical lucha and British styles.

 

As I think about it more, though, I would say that NWA style as practiced by Thesz and other Golden Age greats is also really good and probably my 2nd favorite, though the going through the motions stuff seen in long Flair matches has hurt soiled its legacy a bit in my mind. It's similar to shoot style in that to make it work well you need guys who are adept at shoot grappling so you can get both good application and selling of holds.

[JerryvonKramer]

As I think about it more, though, I would say that NWA style as practiced by Thesz and other Golden Age greats is also really good and probably my 2nd favorite, though the going through the motions stuff seen in long Flair matches has hurt soiled its legacy a bit in my mind. It's similar to shoot style in that to make it work well you need guys who are adept at shoot grappling so you can get both good application and selling of holds.

Who do you think were the last guys who did it well?

[fxnj]

 

As I think about it more, though, I would say that NWA style as practiced by Thesz and other Golden Age greats is also really good and probably my 2nd favorite, though the going through the motions stuff seen in long Flair matches has hurt soiled its legacy a bit in my mind. It's similar to shoot style in that to make it work well you need guys who are adept at shoot grappling so you can get both good application and selling of holds.

Who do you think were the last guys who did it well?

There's plenty of really good 70's AJPW matches in that style as mentioned. There's kind of a dearth of footage of the 70's NWA champs Dory/Terry/Brisco working the style, especially stateside, but what we have shows them as fine in that regard. There seems to be a steep decline with Race and Flair with their go-go-go workrate that often treated the mat work as just something to get out of the way or to kill time with. Unfortunately those two are also who we have by far the most footage of as old school NWA champs, which probably plays a factor in the criticism the style received earlier in the thread.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

As I think about it more, though, I would say that NWA style as practiced by Thesz and other Golden Age greats is also really good and probably my 2nd favorite, though the going through the motions stuff seen in long Flair matches has hurt soiled its legacy a bit in my mind. It's similar to shoot style in that to make it work well you need guys who are adept at shoot grappling so you can get both good application and selling of holds.

Who do you think were the last guys who did it well?

There's plenty of really good 70's AJPW matches in that style as mentioned. There's kind of a dearth of footage of the 70's NWA champs Dory/Terry/Brisco working the style, especially stateside, but what we have shows them as fine in that regard. There seems to be a steep decline with Race and Flair with their go-go-go workrate that often treated the mat work as just something to get out of the way or to kill time with. Unfortunately those two are also who we have by far the most footage of as old school NWA champs, which probably plays a factor in the criticism the style received earlier in the thread.

I don't disagree with that. Apparently Flair was meant to be really good at that stuff, but he gives every impression that he sees all matwork as essentially being downtime. I guess we only glimpse it properly in the Jumbo matches. At least one of which I think is 5-star and an example par excellence of NWA style, others I'm sure find it a bit long and maybe even boring.

 

Flair on his podcast has talked about how he'd didn't like working with Jumbo, thought he couldn't get anything out of him. Has also suggested that he thought Dory and people like Johnny Valentine were boring cos "they'd just lay on you".

 

Just thinking out loud, but I wonder how influential Flair's attitude and ethos to working was to Dave's concept of workrate, and later the idea that any submission hold was a resthold, a la Scott Keith. Does seem that the entire smark framework for workrate comes from Flair's and Race's way of truncating the amount of "downtime" on the mat in order to highlight motion, movement and action.

[Tabe]

In a shock to no one, I pick shoot style. Han, Tamura, Kohsaka, Kopylev - basically the RINGS guys

[NintendoLogic]

I'd say the main thing that separates NWA-style matwork from other styles is the lack of urgency. Working a single hold for minutes at a time isn't uncommon, and even established submission finishers rarely cause an instant tap-out. That doesn't make it inferior, though. In fact, I voted for NWA style because I prefer matwork to be methodical enough that you can see the gears turning. When it's done right, it feels like a chess match. Unfortunately, most wrestlers are too unskilled or lazy to work at that level, so it usually feels like they're just killing time.

[G. Badger]

I would have to go with strong style since it can be a bit of a hybrid of the other styles. I'm thinking of 80's NJ specifically 86-88 with the UWF guys in the mix. It struck me as a faster NWA style with shoot elements and the Jr's. incorporated a bit of lucha as well. So, I feel like the style could lend itself to surprises. Conversely, I don't care for most 90's strong style matwork as it just followed the pattern of apply the hold, work towards the ropes, milk the drama, and rope break.