El-P Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I dunno. If I watch older pro-wrestling, it has nothing to do with nostalgia. Me re-going through the 90's of WCW and ECW was partly that. I grew up on WWF Superstars. I have no inclination on rewatching this stuff and WWF PPV's I have seen a zillion times. At this point, if I watch older stuff (hell, TNA 2005 is more than ten years old) it's because it's fresh to me, not because it's some kind of glory days I want to relive or bath myself into because I hate the current stuff. I have bashed the current stuff for years. Right now I'm at a point where I find myself not only enjoying, but also being excited about some of the current stuff, including (gasp) some WWE matches. And I'm glad I do. I have let some of the preconceived ideas I had slide and decided it was better to go with (some of) the flow and enjoy it for what is it. There are tons of stuff I dislike about the current scene. Then again, there were tons of stuff I disliked about the scene 17 years ago. I focus on what I actually enjoy and what brings me joy. Opinions of others, be it the old fuckers or the young punks ? Water off a duck's back. As far as borrowing what worked in the 80's, maybe. I'm more interested in new forms of pro-wrestling to be honest, as ridiculous as it can be. That's why Lucha Underground and the Total Deletion insanity were my favourite pro-wrestling TV in 2016 (not talking about matches here, although some LU stuff was indeed great). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I wonder if there has ever been a time when "match quality" as a concept in and of itself has been valued so much? I think in the past the memorable matches haven't always been the "best" matches, but have been historically significant (title changes), great spectacles (Hogan/Andre) or emotionally cathartic performances (a face finally getting a win, or a big angle taking place). The truly memorable matches then combined all of the above. And so "match quality" as the main currency of wrestling fandom is going to alienate some older fans. I would rather watch several hours of Memphis TV or Worldwide than a disc of recent MOTYCs. But then again, I'm probably in the minority in enjoying wrestling more for the whole show than just the matches. Yea, I'm really not interested in watching wrestling solely to see the best matches in a vacuum. I'm just not that interested in watching "Best Ofs" unless it's a promotion or wrestler I'm already familiar with and seen a lot of previously. The only times I've really broken with that has been with the DVDVR 80s sets and that was because it was the easiest way to get into watching territory footage which I'd never done before the Mid-South set came out. Those also at least had the extras discs that let you watch the big promos & angles that built up the matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 The main issue I have is the hot take culture that is rather pervasive, but I also dont think that is in anyway wrestling specific. Maybe this is unfair but it often comes off to me like everyone is in a race to be the first to watch a match or the first to praise it. I can recall at least a couple of instances this last year where someone got on a website for not having a review up of a show within 24 hours of it happening when the only way to get the review would have been a live one. People have complained about VODs going up 4-5 days after a show takes place rendering the show old news by then. That all seems so silly. What's the rush? I dont completely agree with Parv that there is a widespread you must love everything attitude. I think there are people like that, but they arent the majority. It is more along the lines of there is so much wrestling out there and every wrestler/promotion/match is going to appeal to someone. We all like to have our niche so people find something they genuinely like and they want others to like it, so they hype it incessantly. The end result is everything is hyped (by at least someone) which can create the illusion of everyone thinking everything is great. People have always pushed their favorites it is just now everyone has a forum to do so and everyone generally has access to the same insane volume of matches so the impact is magnified. For me, Ive kind of limited who I follow and read for match quality opinions/reviews. It is not that I want to isolate myself necessarily but there is only so much time and I was wasting a lot of mine watching matches that I didnt like simply because someone somewhere hyped them. After Ive watched a handful or however many matches that a certain person or group of people hyped and dont see the same things in the matches that they did, it doesnt make sense to continue down that path. Id rather be late to a match by limiting the number of people whose match opinions I follow rather than waste time watching matches recommended by people who I have already determined do not share my same tastes. If something is truly great the hype will persist and spread and Ill eventually get around to it. I 100% agree with this. Hot take culture penetrated today's society that we were gonna see this in wrestling someway and it's gotten to the pro wrestling community. It's hard to fight against it cause technology has helped us view way more wrestling than we could have 5 to 10 years ago so it trickled to the consumer wanting more. I agree that there is so much wrestling that there's something for everybody cause I felt the same way as rzombie (who started the thread) a couple years ago around 2013-2014. I had taken a years off from watching wrestling and was shocked that New Japan was on the rise, Noah had fallen and Davey Richards had a 5 star match. But as time went on, I found I got more interested in the current stuff but also old Lucha and old Joshi got me more involved in a weird way. It's not much different than the music scene as there is something for anybody. I feel really disconnected with current music now but it doesn't make me stop listening to old stuff. And sometimes it leads me to new stuff that I would have never listened to. It can be done with wrestling too. I know I've read rzombie's writeups and that made me look for older Joshi shows, etc. Like Othani's Jacket said, let the kids have their fun with current wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think the industry as a whole has pivoted pretty hard to crazy spots = great, and everyone being most interested in who can get the biggest pops for the craziest stuff, but ultimately, I don't think it matters too much since there is a large amount of footage of stuff you prefer that you'll never be able to watch all of it and keep yourself entertained anyway. Never been an easier time to dial into exactly what you're looking for in a wrestling show, and then talk with others who like exactly what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Wrestling is all about the matches bby! EDIT: Also, feels weird that this conversation is taking place on PWO which very much feels like a place where you can talk about older wrestling with a lens you might not see on websites that review a ton of the modern product. Just seems a bunch of people who feel disenfranchised with modern wrestling and modern wrestling culture don't have to feel threatened (not the best word but I'm not sure what else to use) here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Wrestling is all about the matches bby! EDIT: Also, feels weird that this conversation is taking place on PWO which very much feels like a place where you can talk about older wrestling with a lens you might not see on websites that review a ton of the modern product. Just seems a bunch of people who feel disenfranchised with modern wrestling and modern wrestling culture don't have to feel threatened (not the best word but I'm not sure what else to use) here. I thought wrestling was about the quest to figure out objectively which working style or promotion's fans have the thinnest collective skin and complaining when people value headdrops/Mark Henry/Dragon Gate/fighting spirit/trends/wrestlers who play their role well/narratives/Dave Meltzer's opinions (as applicable) too much. Have I been doing it wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'm still annoyed no one would even engage my Mark Henry vs Randy Orton match write up. Disenfranchisement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Please buy "wrestlingisobjective.com" and have it reroute here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don’t completely agree with Parv that there is a widespread “you must love everything” attitude. I think there are people like that, but they aren’t the majority. It is more along the lines of there is so much wrestling out there and every wrestler/promotion/match is going to appeal to someone. We all like to have our niche so people find something they genuinely like and they want others to like it, so they hype it incessantly. The end result is everything is hyped (by at least someone) which can create the illusion of “everyone thinking everything is great”. People have always pushed their favorites it is just now everyone has a forum to do so and everyone generally has access to the same insane volume of matches so the impact is magnified. To add to this, I think there is perhaps more of a reluctance among many fans these days to be a detractor of something well-loved, and less people interested in engaging those detractors. A lot of Wrestling Twitter folks are more into shared enjoyment than debating and dissecting. Those kind of fans have really always been the majority in real life, but the internet didn't lend itself to that kind of fandom until recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 When wrestling twitter is filled with Dylan and Kris Zellner, I don't see how these statements make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concrete1992 Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don’t completely agree with Parv that there is a widespread “you must love everything” attitude. I think there are people like that, but they aren’t the majority. It is more along the lines of there is so much wrestling out there and every wrestler/promotion/match is going to appeal to someone. We all like to have our niche so people find something they genuinely like and they want others to like it, so they hype it incessantly. The end result is everything is hyped (by at least someone) which can create the illusion of “everyone thinking everything is great”. People have always pushed their favorites it is just now everyone has a forum to do so and everyone generally has access to the same insane volume of matches so the impact is magnified. To add to this, I think there is perhaps more of a reluctance among many fans these days to be a detractor of something well-loved, and less people interested in engaging those detractors. A lot of Wrestling Twitter folks are more into shared enjoyment than debating and dissecting. Those kind of fans have really always been the majority in real life, but the internet didn't lend itself to that kind of fandom until recently. I'd argue a lot of people want to be detractors but without the debating and dissecting because Twitter doesn't lend itself to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingoPlaysDrums Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don’t completely agree with Parv that there is a widespread “you must love everything” attitude. I think there are people like that, but they aren’t the majority. It is more along the lines of there is so much wrestling out there and every wrestler/promotion/match is going to appeal to someone. We all like to have our niche so people find something they genuinely like and they want others to like it, so they hype it incessantly. The end result is everything is hyped (by at least someone) which can create the illusion of “everyone thinking everything is great”. People have always pushed their favorites it is just now everyone has a forum to do so and everyone generally has access to the same insane volume of matches so the impact is magnified. To add to this, I think there is perhaps more of a reluctance among many fans these days to be a detractor of something well-loved, and less people interested in engaging those detractors. A lot of Wrestling Twitter folks are more into shared enjoyment than debating and dissecting. Those kind of fans have really always been the majority in real life, but the internet didn't lend itself to that kind of fandom until recently. I think this is spot on. Particularly true when it comes to Reddit, for obvious reasons. Guess it is similar to the reinforcing twitter/redditsub bubble that people refer to regarding politics on the internet. A culture of downvoting/belittling dissenting views when you're in the majority. Likewise with Twitter, building up a timeline that reflects your views on a subject. I've also noticed that in wrestling chat, it seems to lead to almost identical discussions about given topics, if you can call it discussion. They rarely go anywhere new and nothing is challenged, which is a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's normal to want to enjoy things with your friends and not have some negative nancy self-styled critic harshing your buzz. I'm just glad communities like this exist for us self-styled critics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fxnj Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I love using Twitter, but it's a terrible medium for discussing wrestling and I generally avoid getting involved in that section. Seems pretty dense to wonder why you're seeing so many "hot takes" while focusing on a medium that limits you to 140 characters. If anything, I see the opposite from this supposed unbridled positivity. Yes, people do tend to praise NJPW and indy (which shouldn't be much of a surprise since people going out of their way to seek something out do tend to be fans of it), but with WWE people are as stubbornly negative as ever. I don't think it would be that contentious to say it's the best it's ever been in terms of sheer quantity of good matches and angles delivered regularly, yet people still find bizarre shit to complain about as if they've gotten so used to bashing it they've forgotten how to analyze something positively. This topic is an example of that. Smackdown is fucking killing it every week with characters like The Miz who are infinitely deeper and more complex than anything from the territory era, and even Raw delivers some good angles relatively often. But, nope, it was better in the 80's because there's too many good matches and wrestling is apparently about the shit you can see on soap operas instead of actual wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 The Miz may be a character, but people in wrestling should be exaggerated versions of people you would know in real life, not "characters". That's what people mean when they say they want a return to 80s wrestling. They don't want to feel like they are watching serialized television, even if they are. People sound like they are reciting dialogue, not having real arguments or speaking genuinely from the heart. No one ever searches for the right words -- they just always happen to be there in perfectly eloquent fashion. It's too nice and neat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 To continue that point, I think I would be happy with anything that felt truly disruptive at this point. If it produces great matches, that's awesome, but that would be the most interesting thing to watch. There have always been ridiculous characters in wrestling, so I don't mean to say that everyone should be like Arn Anderson, nor do I think that was ever really the norm. But even the characters, much less the people playing them, seem far more preoccupied with stealing the show and making history than dominance, than winning and losing and than settling scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 One of my real bug bears is how everyone has exactly the same intonation on their promos. Hard to describe but hopefully you know what I mean. It makes my skin crawl. They pause in the same place and emphasise the same word in the same way. "Because at Backlash ... it's going to be ... a night to remember" Or whatever it is. Drives me mad. I'm wondering who the first ever person to cut a promo in that intonation and voice was. Legit the worst thing ever to happen in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think it evolved from Russo-directed intonation where most sentences ended in "your ass", "straight to hell" or "down here". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Problem with talking about "Wrestling Twitter" of course is that two people can inhabit completely different worlds on there, but from what I see the Smackdown talk is overwhelmingly positive (a little too much so, I think, because once an idea like "Smackdown is great" takes hold it takes on a life of its own). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 We're also getting the same promos, same TV format and same basic structure of the world/universe/storylines that we've seen since basically the Raw/Nitro days. Any kind of face lift may very well make for a nice change simply because its different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I think it evolved from Russo-directed intonation where most sentences ended in "your ass", "straight to hell" or "down here". I want to say Chris Jericho cut the first promo in that manner. "Because at unforgiven ... it's going to be ... hell in a cell!" It literally doesn't matter what the words are or who says them, the cookie cutterness is all we get from it. "Because at No Way Out ... it's going to be ... your last ride!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 They talk like that at Kevin Dunn's request so that video packages are easier to edit, for the record. Those overwrought video packages that have the exact same look and feel they did in 1998 that are generally awful. Those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I think it evolved from Russo-directed intonation where most sentences ended in "your ass", "straight to hell" or "down here". I want to say Chris Jericho cut the first promo in that manner. "Because at unforgiven ... it's going to be ... hell in a cell!" It literally doesn't matter what the words are or who says them, the cookie cutterness is all we get from it. "Because at No Way Out ... it's going to be ... your last ride!" They do promos for sound bites in the video packages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 It's funny because they should build the video packages around the promos instead of the promos around the video packages, but whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 So hideous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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